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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if I were a child?

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162 posts found
  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1564

12/28/13 6:40:18 AM#21
Originally posted by Razeekster

It's pretty sad that I find  Vanguard: Saga of Heroes (it's a great game and I would suggest it to anyone looking for a different type of themepark), a themepark MMO created quite a while ago to be better than any other themepark out in the current market, simply because I am tired of MMOs being so obnoxiously easy. You're a winner no matter what! Yes, people play MMOs for fun so horrid death penalties are probably not the answer, but taking away a bit of exp. for dying isn't that big of a deal so I don't see why when there is just a bit of punishment in an MMO people seem to have massive freak outs and say things like 'this game is gonna fail so hard!"

 

It took me a good three days to wrap my head around Diplomacy in Vanguard because no one could explain it to me very well, but several explanations later and lots of practicing and testing of cards, and I finally managed to figure it out. To me, that was extremely satisfying. My hand wasn't held and I had to think for myself and figure stuff out.

 

Everyone asks for something different from WoW easy-mode and when they get it they cry like little babies. Make up your mind people. It's either going to be a game made for adults with some consequences and no hand-holding to make it that much more satisfying in the end, or you can go play some more WoW type MMOs where everything is just handed to you on a big ol' silver platter. I'm sure that's super satisfying in the self achievement department. 

You obviously haven't played Age Of Wulin/Wushu or Wurm Online.

I agree withn your take on Vanguard as well.

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  lindhsky

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 109

12/28/13 7:01:29 AM#22

I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays, for an example the leveling grind. I love when you have to be careful in the zones so that you don't get too much aggro and I love when a death gives some sort of penalty. But we are all different. I remember when I played WOW we had a few people playing a MMO for the first  or second time and they had problems in one of the earliest zones with boars. They were cursing in the chat that they died and hated their class etc. I couldn't believe it. The rest of us were pretty much racing through the content to get to max level the quickest. Which was easy because everything was marked on the map. Go there, do that, get experience.

I guess that that is why I love PvP because you never know what you will face.

Same goes with crafting. It's almost like they want everyone to reach max in crafting. In some games they even force you to have x amount in crafting to be able to wear some pieces of gear. At the same time they don't want crafting to be too powerful because there are always people that don't want to craft. In the end crafting means nothing. I would love a craftingsystem that is hard to skill up in but when someone do they should be able to craft stuff that other player wants.

I love MMORPGs and will continue to play them but I hate how easy everything is. And it's not like I am trying to say that I am a wonderful player and it's easy because of that.

I remember when you had to read the quest text to be able to find what the quest wanted you to find. Now people are not reading the quest texts anymore. In fact they rather send out a question about quests in the general chat and so many times they get the answer " Read the quest text!".

General Chat is another thing I hate with games today but that is another story. :)

 

 

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  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1564

12/28/13 7:22:23 AM#23
Originally posted by lindhsky

I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.

 

 

As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.

Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?

Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.

 

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  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19006

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12/28/13 7:32:54 AM#24
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Distopia

I've never looked at XP loss as anything more than a device to string players along (sub longer). Perma Death, combat fatigue/wounds and corpse looting at least make some sense. XP loss and level loss were poorly used devices IMO.

 

I disagree.

Permadeath is not why most players play these games and it's a very small group of people who would be interested. And for the record I "could" be interested if done well.

looting? Seriously? From what I see looting is a slap on the hand. As many people who are "pro-looting" like to point out, the games designed around looting are less gear dependent so essentially anything that is looted can usually be replaced quite easily.

as it just so happens, that is exactly what happened to me in my small stint with dark fall. Was killed and looted and I ran back to my vault and geared up from the copious amounts of gear that I put in there and that was that.

I prefer xp loss. Vanguard has it and Lineage 2 has it and I never fought so hard as when I knew I was going to die and lose my progression.

Something has to have worth and has to be something that you are not willing to lose to make it important.

In EVE, ship loss and looting has somewhat severe costs, in terms of time and effort it might take to replace your ship/cargo, and I've seen people loose billions of ISK in an instant representing perhaps months if not years of their efforts, so looting can be a quite significant deterrent depending on how it's implemented.

Besides the embarrassment of being listed on the killboards as the idiot who lost everything, one of the strongest deterrents in EVE actually.

 

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  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19006

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/28/13 7:36:16 AM#25
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by lindhsky

I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.

 

 

As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.

Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?

Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.

 

Who said we aren't?  I won't play AOW because the combat style is beyond my current abilities, just don't have the reflexes for action oriented combat, otherwise sounds like an interesting game.

I am however playing a freeshard of DAOC reset to 2003 ruleset, and there is very little hand holding there, penalties for dying, etc, and I'm having more fun the past 7 or 8 months than in the past 9 years, EVE not withstanding.

Many other posters here are playing titles such as Vangard, or nothing at all, due to the dearth of more challenging and well built titles.

 

 

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  Zzulu

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 455

King of Nerds

12/28/13 7:39:37 AM#26

I think you can strike a nice balance between risk and reward. If you're doing a mainstream game then you can't punish players too hard for playing the core content (like questing) but you can increase the risk in certain situations. Certain dungeons and battlegrounds could offer better rewards but be a lot riskier to play for example. You could make zones where the mobs are tougher and where if you die you lose your gear or some xp but if you succeed there you are rewarded with greater things, faster.

I bet you people would flock to these areas and not complain as long as there was an alternative for all the people who didn't want to put in the effort

 

 

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

12/28/13 8:43:40 AM#27


Its the same reason why I am not playing EVE, it takes too long for me to get into the grove of the game. When a game is shown to be too difficult to master, you scare away potential customers.

I for one wants a Moderate Easy game with an Harsh punishment for failure. Like if you fail a quest, you are locked out from it and must continue down another quest line that is longer and more tedious. And the only exp you get are from quests that only unlocks skills not levels.

MMORPG is all about Ego stroking, before when achieving Max level was done in a few days, it used to take months of consistent playing, Leveling up was an achievement in itself. The requiem of the DING.

Now its just an obstacle to reach that max level to start playing.  

Life is a Maze, so make sure you bring your GPS incase you get lost in it.

  Lucioon

Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 840

12/28/13 8:46:46 AM#28
Originally posted by Zzulu

I think you can strike a nice balance between risk and reward. If you're doing a mainstream game then you can't punish players too hard for playing the core content (like questing) but you can increase the risk in certain situations. Certain dungeons and battlegrounds could offer better rewards but be a lot riskier to play for example. You could make zones where the mobs are tougher and where if you die you lose your gear or some xp but if you succeed there you are rewarded with greater things, faster.

I bet you people would flock to these areas and not complain as long as there was an alternative for all the people who didn't want to put in the effort

 

 

The problem is that those that choose not to tackle the more difficult content would complain that its too difficult and they only have 1 hour to play that day and it ruin their experience.

Then the developers would dump down the content so that everyone of any skill level could tackle the content, therefore destroying the concept of having difficult content in the first place.

I believe that was what happened to WOW dungeons if I remember correctly.

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  strangepowers

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/08
Posts: 580

SCAD Animation-Film-F/X

12/28/13 8:49:50 AM#29


Originally posted by Grrl
Hypocrites.

 

You will play all those games regardless you say in this forum or anywhere else.

 

Hype will always get to you and the fact stays the same as long as I live - everyone will always come back to these kind of games. Period.

 

/end


That's terrible logic, I really hope you are being sarcastic...otherwise....

The scary part is one day the world will be run by adults who were never spanked as kids and got trophies just for participating.

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

12/28/13 8:53:58 AM#30

Maybe they've read their own forums.

It's easy to make the association. "These players" = "All our players".

  fivoroth

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 11/10/06
Posts: 2680

12/28/13 9:05:06 AM#31
MMOs have always been easy. If you want challenging games which require skill, tactics and/or strategy, MMOs are not for you. MMOs are just mindless grind (which virtually takes 0 skill) to collect items and increase numbers on your spreadsheet...I mean character sheet. It's like a virtual world where people grind to dress up their barbies....characters!

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  SavageHorizon

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1564

12/28/13 9:06:03 AM#32
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by lindhsky

I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.

 

 

As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.

Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?

Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.

 

Who said we aren't?  I won't play AOW because the combat style is beyond my current abilities, just don't have the reflexes for action oriented combat, otherwise sounds like an interesting game.

Yet you are going to play ESO lol which is a semi action combat system and more so than Age Of Wulin?

I am however playing a freeshard of DAOC reset to 2003 ruleset, and there is very little hand holding there, penalties for dying, etc, and I'm having more fun the past 7 or 8 months than in the past 9 years, EVE not withstanding.

Many other posters here are playing titles such as Vangard, or nothing at all, due to the dearth of more challenging and well built titles.

 

 

"Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if i were a child"

This is the title of the thread and it's simply not true, if the OP was playing these games he wouldn't be making such untrue statements.

So again he has no one to blame but himself for playing hand holding MMO's.

As for Vanguard, been playing since beta( nearly 7 years) i have 5 level 55 characters and numerous other level characters.

Age Of Wulin has tab targeting and also non targeting combat for AOE, it's not really action combat.

You really should give the game a go if it's just the combat that worries you.

Combat explained http://forum.mmosite.com/thread/2/263/20120522/Introduction_to_Age_of_Wulin_Battle_System-4fbbe58bbb8d02413-1.html

 

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  Jemcrystal

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1327

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

12/28/13 9:11:55 AM#33
Originally posted by Antiquated

Maybe they've read their own forums.

It's easy to make the association. "These players" = "All our players".

Lolz.  Yeah, some peeps on the forums might give you an impression your clientele "aint all that bright, son."  But I've been trying to give corps/devs the benefit of doubt and assume they think smart people will forgive them because they're making tutorials for the preadolescents just joining the gaming community.  Marketing has always put the youth first because the young always outnumber their elders via reproduction ratio.

 

That said, THEY NEED TO STOP IT.  

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  Myria

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 535

12/28/13 9:22:57 AM#34

Given the amount of whining, whinging, and general kindergarten behavior that goes on in very nearly any MMO (or, for that matter, video game) discussion, would it really be surprising if devs saw most players as (emotional) children and treated them as such?

 

But, to answer the OP's question; a) It isn't holding your hand as if you were a child, it's holding your hand as if you were a newbie -- a distinction that appears to escape many, and b) it holds your hand as if you were a newbie because it assumes you are, that you aren't just means you aren't the target market.

 

You'd think that little chunk of reality, and the reasons for it, would be obvious to most of those around here by now.

 

Apparently not.

 

Most people haven't played eleventy-billion MMOs. Most people don't automatically understand the UI and key layout with very little effort because they've done it all before and most games use basically the same setup. Most people don't know what "buff", "debuff", "DoT", "HoT" or "agro" mean. If they've even heard of these terms they only have a vague, probably wrong, idea of what they are or how to use them in gaming. They're clueless, but the game looks fun and if they can figure out how to play it in a fun way then they'll stick around and keep throwing money at the devs.

 

When it stops being fun, and most non-masochists don't find frustration very fun, they'll stop throwing money at the devs and go away.

 

There's millions of clueless newbies who need all the handholding they can get. There's a few hundred thousand long time vets who have played so many MMOs that they can know the ins and outs of any new one they pick up in minutes just because at their base the distance between even WoW and Eve isn't all that great. Between the two, devs rightly figure it's the former that are going to make or break them, and so they design around it because they are the market.

 

In any meaningful sense, while it is the latter that thinks it is the market, it is the former that is the only target market that  matters.

 

You think you are the market, and thus the game should be designed around you, but you aren't and that, in point of fact, is why it isn't designed around you.

 

Simple as that, really.

  Razeekster

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 7/09/11
Posts: 1919

May the game be ever in your favor.

 
OP  12/28/13 9:29:32 AM#35
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by SavageHorizon
Originally posted by lindhsky

I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.

 

 

As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.

Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?

Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.

 

Who said we aren't?  I won't play AOW because the combat style is beyond my current abilities, just don't have the reflexes for action oriented combat, otherwise sounds like an interesting game.

I am however playing a freeshard of DAOC reset to 2003 ruleset, and there is very little hand holding there, penalties for dying, etc, and I'm having more fun the past 7 or 8 months than in the past 9 years, EVE not withstanding.

Many other posters here are playing titles such as Vangard, or nothing at all, due to the dearth of more challenging and well built titles.

 

 

That's what has kept me from AoW too. I am triple jointed (take that people who whine about being double jointed!) and it is simply too frustrating to try and get my fingers to work fast enough in games that have twitch-like or action based combat (although TERA and GW2 for some reason I can manage).

 

PvP in  AoW requires the speed my fingers just don't possess (especially doing combos).

 

As for other posters, I agree on what was brought up about leveling and how it's a rush to endgame now. I don't understand why developers have this thing now where "endgame is where the real fun begins!" So I'm supposed to be bored out of my mind for the first 60 or whatever levels? That's just bad game design, period.

Smile

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1175

12/28/13 10:40:08 AM#36

Pretty much every modern game outside of Paradox strategy games, EVE and Dwarf Fortress  seems like this to me. I think this is the age of short attention spans. Games for adults and teenagers used to come with big printed manuals you would have to read before you could have any idea what you were doing. (You can still find many of these games on GOG) They used to take brain power and give a sense of accomplishment when you finally were able to just play competently.  

 

Now I think many people are playing games while watching TV or messing around on their phones. They want bright flashing lights telling them how to do things and they better be able to totally understand the game mechanics within 5 minutes of picking up the game. As someone said, any real thought  in these games comes many hours in when training wheels may  finally come off. Problem is most people are bored with the game by that point. 

 

I guess you all  can do is play old games or the few new games fit in with the "a lot of  thinking  and pre-learning required" category and look for similar project to back on Kickstarter.

 

 

Oh and check this game out which is , I think, probably for better or for worse the most complicated least hand-hold-y game ever made:

 

http://steamcommunity.com/app/259060

 

 

 

 

  User Deleted
12/28/13 10:43:35 AM#37
Because games stopped being about challenge and became more about entertainment.
  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17130

12/28/13 10:48:44 AM#38

OP, I'm going to have to disagree a bit here.

Game systems should ALWAYS be clear and understandable. There is no reason for you to take three days to learn how to do something.

The accomplishment should be in slowly mastering the activity not figuring out how the activity should be done.

The only things that could take days (or more) to discover are things in the game world. An alien space ship where there is no apparent ingress, a riddle in a musty old tome in some forgotten library, etc.

But the game's "instructions" should always be clear and easy to understand.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1175

12/28/13 10:58:47 AM#39
Originally posted by jdnyc
Because games stopped being about challenge and became more about entertainment.

Or people started thinking that challenge and entertainment are mutually exclusive (which they shouldn't be at all)

 

  Viper482

Elite Member

Joined: 11/04/10
Posts: 318

12/28/13 11:04:30 AM#40

There are enough "gimme-now!" kiddies out there to buy up these games to satisfy their ADHD for the month and move on, that is why these games still exist. 

My problem is where is the indie developer who wants to cash in on the niche crowd that wants the next old school EQ style MMORPG? They have to know there is a demand for this type of game and the only way we will get it is through indie because all the big devs are trying to cash in on this console generation. And make no mistake, there is a direct correlation between everything going cross-platform and the continuing dumbing down of MMO's. Yes I know, I am a pc elitist..../roll eyes.

And the problem is not just with MMO's, it is the Elder Scrolls types as well. Oblivion and Skyrim are so dumbed down compared to Morrowind and Daggerfall it is pathetic....but boy they look pretty and you can get them for that Xbox and PS. I long for a game where I overhear someone talking about a mysterious cave to the north and it is NOT magically located on my map and a magic arrow guiding me there does NOT appear. Make me find the thing! When you lose difficulty you also lose immersion, and that is what games like this have always been about. 

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