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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Head count - Free or Sub game

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201 posts found
  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4680

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/27/13 3:28:00 PM#41
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DamonVile

Is a vote on this site an honest sample of the mmo market ? 

 

Of course not. Research shows that F2P players outnumbered sub-only by a large margin. You will never know this if you look at this forum.

 

what research shows is that F2P outnumber P2P 6 to 1.

it also shows that F2P players have 1 in 10 paying.

common sense shows that P2P players have almost 1 in 1 paying. ALMOST? WH...well, son, PLEX.

 

therefore Robokapp concludes that for every 3 F2P players investing, there are 5 P2P players investing.

 

since the F2P market can't survive or make any profit on the other 9 out of 10, only 1 in 10 F2P players is business-relevant.

 

therefore while F2P players outnumber P2P players by 6 to 1, the F2P customers are outnumbered by P2P customers 5 to 3.

 

This math brought to you by...Robokapp.

 

F2P customers are outnumbered by P2P customers by a large margin.

 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4821

12/27/13 3:40:59 PM#42
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by DamonVile

Is a vote on this site an honest sample of the mmo market ? 

 

Of course not. Research shows that F2P players outnumbered sub-only by a large margin. You will never know this if you look at this forum.

 

what research shows is that F2P outnumber P2P 6 to 1.

it also shows that F2P players have 1 in 10 paying.

common sense shows that P2P players have almost 1 in 1 paying. ALMOST? WH...well, son, PLEX.

 

therefore Robokapp concludes that for every 3 F2P players investing, there are 5 P2P players investing.

 

since the F2P market can't survive or make any profit on the other 9 out of 10, only 1 in 10 F2P players is business-relevant.

 

therefore while F2P players outnumber P2P players by 6 to 1, the F2P customers are outnumbered by P2P customers 5 to 3.

 

This math brought to you by...Robokapp.

 

F2P customers are outnumbered by P2P customers by a large margin.

 

But you make the common mistake of saying a non paying player contributes nothing to a game. ( sort of )

A git of an over simplification but it's just to make an example.... but

If you try and make a group and you can't in a p2p game because there isn't enough people to make one...you quit and find a game that isn't dead  so that game now has 0 paying players. This is often what happened to mmos over the last 5 or so years.

You try the same thing in a f2p and sure only 1 in 10 is paying but unless you have some agenda or personal issue it wont change the outcome for the day...and that is you get to make your group and do the content.

There is far more to the equation than just how many actually pay. I don't think anyone can really argue that an mmo suffers if it can't get to a critical mass of players. 

so anyone that plays a f2p game is a f2p customer, some are just more like content than others :)

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  rodrigoq

Novice Member

Joined: 10/27/07
Posts: 13

12/27/13 3:46:33 PM#43

I'd much rather pay a sub and get a playing experience equal to everyone else, knowing that everyone else is also pitching into the pot.  Content is delivered on a regular basis, and I don't have to pay large gobs of cash just to open content or achieve gear that I could manage to get if I put the time into it.  F2P is always pay 2 win.  Those who are willing, or dunb enough to dump thousands a year really do themselves no favors.  IMO it cheapens the game and the experience within the game.  Why try hard, when you can just buy what you need to be the best?  PLEX is a great system.  I used it for all of my accounts when I played EVE.  I had more ISK than I could ever spend, and made incredible amounts sitting in jita, waiting for something more interesting to do.

  Not many games out there are worth paying a sub for.  Majority of the F2P games are pure garbage, funded by suckers who pay too much for the illusion of being awesome.  W/o a cash shop, they would still be the same useless, casual scrub they always were.

  Athena_Starfire

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/25/09
Posts: 181

UH! Whats this lever do?

12/27/13 3:48:42 PM#44

I much prefer to try out a game before paying any money. I don't care to pay $15 a month. If I feel the game is worth I usually indulge in the cash shop.

 

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4680

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/27/13 3:52:36 PM#45

Here's the problem with what you're saying.

 

I was going to write about the whole "free players are not the customers but the content" but I realised...the numbers I posted are true NOW. the 5 to 3 ratio is true WITH the free players in there. If you take them away then that 6 to 1 would become 0.6 to 1. the 5 to 3 would become 50 to 3.

 

F2P i not beating P2P now and removing the free players will not improve the ratio. Even without any loss from paying F2P players as result.

 

these free players are adding to the revenue of F2P companies indirectly. You are absolutely correct. However my statistics were made assuming these guys are in there.

 

the ratio of 5 consumers to 3 consumers is not negatively affected by the 90% non-consumers. They arent factored in here. The F2P customers that the free players keep in game however are.

 

I am giving you the statistics based on best-case scenario. the detail you're pointing out is 100% true but it's already considered in those numbers.

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2171

12/27/13 4:01:53 PM#46
Sub. Anything anyone has in game I think should be achieved. Get it through game play.

Once upon a time....

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4821

12/27/13 4:06:44 PM#47
Originally posted by Robokapp

Here's the problem with what you're saying.

 

I was going to write about the whole "free players are not the customers but the content" but I realised...the numbers I posted are true NOW. the 5 to 3 ratio is true WITH the free players in there. If you take them away then that 6 to 1 would become 0.6 to 1. the 5 to 3 would become 50 to 3.

 

F2P i not beating P2P now and removing the free players will not improve the ratio. Even without any loss from paying F2P players as result.

 

these free players are adding to the revenue of F2P companies indirectly. You are absolutely correct. However my statistics were made assuming these guys are in there.

 

the ratio of 5 consumers to 3 consumers is not negatively affected by the 90% non-consumers. They arent factored in here. The F2P customers that the free players keep in game however are.

 

I am giving you the statistics based on best-case scenario. the detail you're pointing out is 100% true but it's already considered in those numbers.

Then the only conclusion you can make from all that is p2p players aren't paying. If they outnumber f2p players so much we wouldn't be seeing what we're seeing. A total failure of the sub market and a shift of all games to either a hybrid sub/cash shop or f2p cash shop.

That makes the sub model a pretty risky undertaking. Even a bad f2p still makes money. A sub has to be right from the start or players have demonstrated they will walk away from your game leaving you only one option....go f2p and have a bad rep as a " failed" game.

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5824

12/27/13 4:14:10 PM#48
Originally posted by Robokapp

Here's the problem with what you're saying.

I was going to write about the whole "free players are not the customers but the content" but I realised...the numbers I posted are true NOW. the 5 to 3 ratio is true WITH the free players in there. If you take them away then that 6 to 1 would become 0.6 to 1. the 5 to 3 would become 50 to 3.

F2P i not beating P2P now and removing the free players will not improve the ratio. Even without any loss from paying F2P players as result.

these free players are adding to the revenue of F2P companies indirectly. You are absolutely correct. However my statistics were made assuming these guys are in there.

the ratio of 5 consumers to 3 consumers is not negatively affected by the 90% non-consumers. They arent factored in here. The F2P customers that the free players keep in game however are.

I am giving you the statistics based on best-case scenario. the detail you're pointing out is 100% true but it's already considered in those numbers.

Here is the problem with what you're saying. Despite all the napkin math and mental gymnastics to prove your point, the bottom line is sub-free/optional (F2P/B2P) revenues overshadow sub-locked (P2P) revenues. This is especially true when you remove WoW from the equation which is important.

It's important to remove WoW from the equation because that highlights what the rest of the P2P world and more than one game generates for revenue.

In the end all this "on paper" stuff in the OP doesn't matter. What matters is how revenue is flowing. And to me, all that is important is that I have fun sub-optional (F2P or B2P) games to play.

Curse you AquaScum!

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4821

12/27/13 4:32:38 PM#49
Originally posted by Torvaldr
Originally posted by Robokapp

Here's the problem with what you're saying.

I was going to write about the whole "free players are not the customers but the content" but I realised...the numbers I posted are true NOW. the 5 to 3 ratio is true WITH the free players in there. If you take them away then that 6 to 1 would become 0.6 to 1. the 5 to 3 would become 50 to 3.

F2P i not beating P2P now and removing the free players will not improve the ratio. Even without any loss from paying F2P players as result.

these free players are adding to the revenue of F2P companies indirectly. You are absolutely correct. However my statistics were made assuming these guys are in there.

the ratio of 5 consumers to 3 consumers is not negatively affected by the 90% non-consumers. They arent factored in here. The F2P customers that the free players keep in game however are.

I am giving you the statistics based on best-case scenario. the detail you're pointing out is 100% true but it's already considered in those numbers.

Here is the problem with what you're saying. Despite all the napkin math and mental gymnastics to prove your point, the bottom line is sub-free/optional (F2P/B2P) revenues overshadow sub-locked (P2P) revenues. This is especially true when you remove WoW from the equation which is important.

It's important to remove WoW from the equation because that highlights what the rest of the P2P world and more than one game generates for revenue.

In the end all this "on paper" stuff in the OP doesn't matter. What matters is how revenue is flowing. And to me, all that is important is that I have fun sub-optional (F2P or B2P) games to play.

For once, I was way nicer about it than you were :P

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5824

12/27/13 4:39:48 PM#50
Ooh, sorry you guys. I wasn't trying to be mean or rude. I sometimes don't get that it sounds that way when I write it. I respect Robo's opinion, even if I don't agree with it.

Curse you AquaScum!

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1447

 
OP  12/27/13 4:45:21 PM#51

Folks, please don't argue. I'm keeping my composure and I asked the question. I know I can rant on and on about this topic. Let people respond as they like. We all know both sets of players exist. As stated, I'm presenting information that sub preferring players exist. They aren't a figment of imagination and they don't even have to be a majority. All that matters for this particular thread is that they do exist.

I appreciate the bumping of the thread because it got more votes when it comes up on the recent threads but if we go all headstrong they will just lock it and it will fade away forever. It was just around 20 votes when I went to sleep, now it's over 100, it's good, let it speak for itself. If you want to expand on a reason, that's fine but the quoting back and forth is only going to get it archived into a locked state.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19855

12/27/13 5:27:35 PM#52
Originally posted by greenreen

Folks, please don't argue.

I doubt such a piece of advice will have any impact on an internet forum.

 

  jazz.be

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/26/06
Posts: 782

12/27/13 5:29:38 PM#53

Now this is the kind of choice I like!

You want it free of charge? Or do you want to pay for it :-)

Perhaps you should give the question a little bit of context

  olepi

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/07
Posts: 1012

12/27/13 5:32:09 PM#54

If the sub is $15 or less a month, the extra cost means nothing to me, so I voted sub.

I would prefer no cash shop either, or at least no way to buy anything of value in the game. You buy the game, pay a sub, and get the entire game, no questions asked.

------------
RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4821

12/27/13 5:37:20 PM#55
Originally posted by greenreen

As stated, I'm presenting information that sub preferring players exist. They aren't a figment of imagination and they don't even have to be a majority. All that matters for this particular thread is that they do exist.

 

Has anyone ever...in any thread actually said they don't exist ? I've seen "thousands" of posts that they're not the majority but never once, that no one wants a sub game or would prefer it. Shit...most of the things we argue about revolve around sub vrs f2p.....

There's a saying about evolution and why we have two eyes and two ears but only one mouth. Clearly it didn't see the internet coming or it never would have given us ten fingers to type with.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19855

12/27/13 5:46:36 PM#56
Originally posted by Athena_Starfire

I much prefer to try out a game before paying any money. I don't care to pay $15 a month. If I feel the game is worth I usually indulge in the cash shop.

 

That is the point. The worth of a game, an entertainment product, is determined by its competition. If i can get the same amount of fun (or almost) for free, why would i even pay $1 per month .. not to mention $15?

The money would be better used funding 1/3 of my next bottle of Pinot Noir (yes, wine is also one of my hobbies), or even go to charity.

 

  Dauntis

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 10/21/09
Posts: 445

12/27/13 5:49:22 PM#57

Voted "Sub" , I also don't mind if they have a cash shop for pretty mounts that give money to charities and what not.

Please explain to me again how WoW's cash shop cripples your gaming experience?

I would like to give an opinion on this post, but if I agree I will offend people who disagree. While if I disagree my comment will be seen as inflammatory. Either way I will get banned by this site full of the most delicate flowers in online gaming. Ban people for giving honest opinions... beautiful. Unfortunately I still like the articles.

  ZombieKen

Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/10
Posts: 4410

Zombie - Dead but still moving.

12/27/13 5:57:43 PM#58

No vote.

 

What I'm playing lately isn't an MMORPG.

 

MSOTSG with PPE : Massively Single-player Online Task-driven Storyline Game with Purchasable Performance Enhancements *grin*

  MMOredfalcon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/13
Posts: 129

12/27/13 6:08:24 PM#59
Originally posted by tom_gore

What do you mean by "RL pull"?

Personally, nothing makes me feel a "pull" more than a subscription. I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one. Also, trying a sub game after a pause often requires paying one month sub, even if you only try it for an hour and see that nothing's really changed.

 

 Really? The average sub for most MMOs is around 15$/month. Goin to movies, renting movies, going out in any way shape or form for any entertainment is going to cost you way more than 15$/month. Your cable,internet, satillite, buying a new single player game is all going to cost more than 15$/month also. So really a MMO with sub is probibly about the cheapest form of entertainment around in this day n age.

Even if you go back and have to resub...if you only play an hour, you probibly won't notice any differences in that length of time. So most people will log on several times during that month they paid for just to see if it really is worth resubbing or not.

I don't understand all these 'OMG, no way am I paying a sub for this game no matter how great it is.' type. If you can't handle a small sub charge every month because it costs too much, then you should either

a)find a better job

b) find a new hobby (tho I don't know of many hobbies that will cost you less than 15$/month)

c) or simply don't subscribe and stop complaining every MMO should be B2W or F2P. Plenty of those kinda games being made all the time.

I'll take a sub model any day over a f2p. Even if I only have a few hours a week to play it...will still be cheap entertainment.

  SgtPepperUK

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/03/13
Posts: 27

12/27/13 6:35:11 PM#60

Originally posted by tom_gore

I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one.

 

 

I've never understood this line of reasoning.

 

If you had a gym membership, which would certainly cost more than an MMO sub, would you feel the need to be there all the time? If you had a phone contract would you feel the need to be using it as much as possible?

 

Originally posted by tom_gore

Now that I think about it further, I would love a subscription model.

One that is paid by the hour, not by the month.

Maybe I need to move to China.

 

 

Originally posted by Superman0X
My personal favorite is pay by the minute. This is the single most fair way to do a pay to play game.This way, people who want to play 100 hours a week, can do so, and will support the game. Those of us that only have an hour to two a week, can pay for the time we spend.

 

How much would you expect someone, realistically,  to charge for a pay-per-hour/pay-per-minute game and how long would the player have before such costs started to exceed the price of a sub? Probably not all that long.

 

Anyway, I answered sub. Simply because with a proper sub game I can pay a fixed cost at the start of the month and that's it. I don't need to worry about incurring additional costs later or spending more than I intended.

Think about it, nobody wants to die, there's rules to this game son, I'm justified.

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