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General Gaming  » Skyrim story overrated // Fallout 4 writers

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  Darth-Batman

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/26/05
Posts: 685

Bruce, I am your father.

12/21/13 2:26:02 PM#61
Dont all these companies just hire writers for specific projects in the same way they hire voice actors and such? I cant imagine video game companies keeping writers and voice actors on staff year round. Its probably a shared talent pool. 
  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2490

12/21/13 2:41:04 PM#62

First of all compare games made by bioware vs Bethesda is rediculous there both two totally different game styles.

Skyrim is about freedom-huge openworld, exploring, adventure and mods 1000+ hours easy on pc if you like mods.

Baldurs gate or dragon age origin is follow path and story fight bosses at end of map.

Skyrim is bugged and have its flawes yes, but 16 million sold copys seems to me something they did very well.

How many baldur's gate-dragon age and massive effect combined 8 million if there lucky?

Oblivion and skyrim combined 22million.

Still many even play and modding morrowind lol.

AC1-AC2 both Darktide server. Lineage2-Darkfall 1. Many ive tried in between. Stopped playing mmorpgs for now fed up with... Played many solo games mainly rpg's.
Fav series Elder scrolls.

  User Deleted
12/21/13 2:50:54 PM#63
I was so sidetracked everywhere I went in Skyrim - I didnt read the story I was living it day in and day out. A completely scripted story just doesnt work. Here was the script, your captured with Ralof of Riverwood, a dragon comes and saves you from getting your head cut off, you escape to find out your dragonborn and the rest is up to you.
  klash2def

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/15/11
Posts: 94

(/O_o)/ mods please close thread.

 
OP  12/21/13 5:34:17 PM#64
Originally posted by CazNeerg

Originally posted by winter

 

 Really Bioware?? Have you played the piece of crap stories Bioware did in ME3 and DA2, sorry but just no EAoware can't pull off a decent story to save their lives these days. Obsidian might be alittle better these days but they still managed to Kill the Neverwinter 2 story where they thought it would be cool simply to have you and your party buried under a ton of rock and killed in the end no matter what you did (short of being evil) never to be seen in the realms again. The crappy sketch ending with poor voice over in that one was just the slap in the face. Obsidians Kotor 2 ending was just about as bad. (theres a reason theres no Kotor 3 or NW3 as Obsidians basically killed off the IP in their attempts.) SO in comparison to  the examples I've given from both those companies Skyrim by Bethesda is golden 

Did the ending of ME3 suck?  Sure, but up until that few minutes ME3 is a strong contender for the best written, most moving RPG narrative, ever.  And DA2 wasn't quite up to the normal BW standard, but it still had a better story than any Bethesda game.  They just released too early and as a result did a half-assed job on everything other than the story.  NW2 had an expansion, where you played the same character as from the main campaign, and ran into some of the others from it.  Obsidian was forced by LucasArts to release KotOR 2 before it was done, so that isn't a writing problem.

Originally posted by mari3k

You are right, story of skyrim was bad, but that game was not about story.

Skyrim is more about sandbox, and you can't make a sandbox game with great story.

Well lets see what koshima brings with new MGS, when someone can do it, then this guy.

It's a single player RPG in the 21st century.  If it isn't about story, they're doing it wrong.

Originally posted by Gravarg
I didn't like Skyrim's main storyline either, but that's why I only played through it once.  The thing that made Skyrim so great was that you could completely ignore anything you didn't want to do.  Well, at least after the first part you can skip anything.

That is part of what makes the narrative so terrible in Bethesda games though.  The narrative structure should look like a tree, with the main story being a solid trunk that runs through the game in a linear fashion, but side content branching off, with player choices allowing a feeling of real impact as you move out the branches and choose mutually exclusive paths.  The narrative in most Bethesda games is more like a bundle of sticks.  Remove any one, or several of them, and it has no impact on any of the rest.

Originally posted by LittleBoot
 

I agree, SWTOR was worse than a B movie- but this is by design; a lot of exposition is needed in a game where the story is broken into many chapters with lengthy periods of action and side quests in between (and where a variety of responses must lead seamlessly onto the next unchanging chunk of dialogue).  It was hugely cliched though, to the point where you knew the next lines before anyone spoke them.   

Let's  be real here; most of the story in TOR was better than anything in the prequel movies, and most of what you'll find in the books.  It was not only appropriate to the Star Wars setting, it was some of the highest quality ever made in that setting.  We're talking about a setting that revolves around space magic, space knights and cowboys, and sound in space.  It was never going to be fine literature.

Originally posted by LittleBoot
 

But taking two extremes of quest driven games there is a world of difference between the SWTOR system and the Skyrim system.  Yes it is all scripted content played by many people, but it is giving players some option as to how and when they play the content that gives some sense of freedom.  

I am not arguing that a mmo can do without scripted quests because I think they are entirely necessary, I just think that the on rails implementation in most theme parks is lazy.  

TOR gives more sense of *narrative* freedom than most Bethesda games.  Does Bethesda let you choose whether to use a fireball or a sword?  Whether to sneak past some enemies or fight them?  Whether to focus on the main quest, or do all the side content first?  Sure, but as soon as you reach an actual narrative interaction, all the choices disappear, and the story plays out exactly one way, without even "flavor" variation.  Skyrim had what, two places where you could actually make a narrative choice?  Maybe three?  That is pitiful for a modern RPG.

This is all im saying CazNeerg

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

12/21/13 8:54:41 PM#65
 
Originally posted by gambe1

Story is not that great i agree. But in case of Fallout, that game has probably the best lore of all games made so far. Just visiting Fallout Vault keeps me engaged for hours.

I love a good story and that's probably why Dragon Age Origins is one of my favourite games of all times. But Fallout and TES are different. They are more focused on exploration , and through that exploration you learn everyting  about the world. 

Please don't call it Fallout.  New Vegas was a Fallout game.  "Fallout 3" was a post-apocalyptic Elder Scrolls game.

Originally posted by Rockniss
I was so sidetracked everywhere I went in Skyrim - I didnt read the story I was living it day in and day out. A completely scripted story just doesnt work. Here was the script, your captured with Ralof of Riverwood, a dragon comes and saves you from getting your head cut off, you escape to find out your dragonborn and the rest is up to you.

"The rest is up to you?"  Seriously?  The narrative content in Skyrim is just as scripted as in a BioWare/Obsidian game.  It just features fewer connections between the narrative threads in the different quests, a larger geographical area the quests are spread out into, and *fewer* choices.  The only thing that is "up to you" is whether you bother with a given quest chain.  If you do decide to do the Thieves' Guild quests, they play out one way.  Fighter's Guild?  One way.  Mage's Guild?  One way.  Hell, there are only a couple of points where pursuing a quest chain even prevents you from pursuing another with the same character, and one of those you have to buy an expansion to get.  

The difference between Bethesda and BioWare/Obsidian, narratively speaking, is that BW/Obsidian give you a story that focuses on a specific character, and allows the player to help define who that character is, with all of the content being things it would make sense for that character to encounter (and devote time to) while in the process of pursuing the primary narrative, while Bethesda gives you a soulless, voiceless avatar, hangs a collection of stats on it, and drops a bunch of completely unrelated plot driven quest lines into the game world for you to pursue or not pursue, with absolutely no logical reason given why the character you are playing would bother to pursue any of them.  Fans call Bethesda's approach "Freedom," when what it really is is just lack of focus, consistency, or quality.  Which I guess to somebody with ADD might feel like the same thing.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  hyukming

Novice Member

Joined: 1/30/13
Posts: 5

12/23/13 2:48:18 AM#66
Well, hate to mention, I've just seen a picture which said imperfection is beautiful. I think Skyrim has done a great job, even the storyline.
  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1620

12/23/13 3:32:39 AM#67

OP must be new to the ES series.  If you just go by the main quest for pretty much any game other than Arena, they're all fairly quick.  You don't play ES for that.  The last game that had a "complicated" storyline was Daggerfall, and only then because it had two branches that you had to complete.

You make me like charity

  MmoFluff

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/13
Posts: 12

12/23/13 3:37:51 AM#68

I found the story to be just fine.

Then again i buy TES/FALLOUT to have a wonderful world full of possibilities where i can be and do as i feel like rather than to follow the story and actually enjoy it as a standard rpg.

  Solar_Prophet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 428

12/23/13 3:40:51 AM#69

Don't mention Bioware. It's clear as day from the craptastic writing in both Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 (though much better than DA2) that Drew Karpyshyn was the only real writing talent at that company. As soon as he left, the writing went directly to shit.

Bioware's current writers are on the same level of Chris 'Let's Retcon!' Metzen. Though to be fair Chris is decent insofar as creating an overall story arc, it's the details, dialogue, and characterization he continually fails at.

Obsidian's writers are actually pretty good. Despite the huge amount of bugs and gameplay flaws, Alpha Protocol was very well written, as was Fallout NV. I'd pick them over Bioware any day of the week.

Today's message is brought to you by Travel Syria. Come for the jihad, stay for the sarin gas!

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

12/23/13 11:35:54 AM#70

Originally posted by asmkm22

OP must be new to the ES series.  If you just go by the main quest for pretty much any game other than Arena, they're all fairly quick.  You don't play ES for that.  The last game that had a "complicated" storyline was Daggerfall, and only then because it had two branches that you had to complete.

And Daggerfall was the most consistently awesome game in the entire series.  Arguably the last true RPG the company put out.

Originally posted by MmoFluff

I found the story to be just fine.

Then again i buy TES/FALLOUT to have a wonderful world full of possibilities where i can be and do as i feel like rather than to follow the story and actually enjoy it as a standard rpg.

And that is exactly Bethesda's primary target market, people who while they might have an opinion on story quality if pressed, don't really *care* about the story quality, instead prioritizing it below pretty much every other aspect of the game.

Originally posted by Solar_Prophet

Don't mention Bioware. It's clear as day from the craptastic writing in both Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3 (though much better than DA2) that Drew Karpyshyn was the only real writing talent at that company. As soon as he left, the writing went directly to shit.

Bioware's current writers are on the same level of Chris 'Let's Retcon!' Metzen. Though to be fair Chris is decent insofar as creating an overall story arc, it's the details, dialogue, and characterization he continually fails at.

Obsidian's writers are actually pretty good. Despite the huge amount of bugs and gameplay flaws, Alpha Protocol was very well written, as was Fallout NV. I'd pick them over Bioware any day of the week.

Please, explain where (other than the last ten minutes of ME3, where you are clearly correct) the "craptastic" writing has been?  I actually agree that Obsidian's output, when they are allowed to actually finish a game before releasing it, has an average quality level higher than BioWare's, but that doesn't mean BioWare's is bad.  DA2, while it's non-narrative elements were grossly, insultingly unfinished when it released, still had a better story than pretty much any RPG not made by devs from BioWare or Obsidian (except for the Witcher series).  And Mass Effect 3, until that ending, was a magnificent, epic piece of work.  They just shouldn't have had Mac Walters in charge of the ending, they should have used whoever wrote the Quarian/Geth content, or Tuchanka.  One bad writer in a position of authority does not equate to an entire company full of terrible writers.

I do miss the days though, however brief they were, when both BioWare and Bethesda were capable of releasing complete games that were awesome in every respect, rather than the path both companies now follow, where they pick one or two things to do really well, and barely expend enough effort to hit average quality on the rest.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1620

12/23/13 12:19:29 PM#71

[quote] Originally posted by CazNeerg


And Daggerfall was the most consistently awesome game in the entire series.  Arguably the last true RPG the company put out.

 

Morrowind was just as good. Less landmass, but more meaningful quests. The problem with Daggerfall was that everything except for the main quest was pretty bland (and randomly generated). What Morrowind did was bring an actual game world alive, not to mention open up the world to TES modding.

You make me like charity

  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

12/23/13 1:57:43 PM#72
Originally posted by asmkm22

Morrowind was just as good. Less landmass, but more meaningful quests. The problem with Daggerfall was that everything except for the main quest was pretty bland (and randomly generated). What Morrowind did was bring an actual game world alive, not to mention open up the world to TES modding.

Morrowind was good at different things than Daggerfall.  Morrowind did a better job of making you feel like you were in a living world, but Daggerfall did a better job (at least in the main quest) of giving the impression that you actually had choices that mattered within the world.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  aspekx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2133

12/23/13 4:11:57 PM#73
i have never finished an ES main storyline. which is why i love those games, i don't have to.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Margulis

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/14/08
Posts: 1643

12/23/13 8:37:08 PM#74
One of the funniest things I've seen is a few "what is the best game story you've ever played" threads around and some people post Skyrim.  Sad really.
  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

12/23/13 10:34:43 PM#75
Originally posted by aspekx
i have never finished an ES main storyline. which is why i love those games, i don't have to.

Which is different from other games how?  You can always choose not to finish a game.

Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.

  User Deleted
12/24/13 3:24:16 AM#76
Originally posted by klash2def

Bethesda + Bioware or Obsidian Writers = success.. IP wont matter.. i was just pointing out FO4 needs writers other than the people from Bethesda's Skyrim team if they are going to do the game.. Skyrim's story isnt that great. 

(which by now we are all pretty sure its Bethesda who is doing FO4 being they brought the fallout license) 

Are you trying to play Fantasy Football with Game Development companies?

  SavageHorizon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1433

12/24/13 4:09:11 AM#77

I think The Witcher 2 beats Skyrim when it comes to story and immersion imo. Yes Skyrim is open world sandbox but it's pretty bland.

I think The Witcher 3 will blow all other open world sandbox rpg's out of the water in 2014.

As for RPG that grab you, Dark Souls also kicks Skyrims ass for immersion imo.

Also Gothic 2 & 3 also kick Skyrims ass imo and they are both sandbox RPG'S.

Skyrim is a great RPG but like George R.R. Martin's:  A Song of Ice and Fire saga is totally overrated imo.

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  CazNeerg

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/06/04
Posts: 2220

"So, Lone Star, now you see that evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." Dark Helmet

12/24/13 11:31:38 AM#78
Originally posted by SavageHorizon

I think The Witcher 2 beats Skyrim when it comes to story and immersion imo. Yes Skyrim is open world sandbox but it's pretty bland.

I think The Witcher 3 will blow all other open world sandbox rpg's out of the water in 2014.

As for RPG that grab you, Dark Souls also kicks Skyrims ass for immersion imo.

Also Gothic 2 & 3 also kick Skyrims ass imo and they are both sandbox RPG'S.

Skyrim is a great RPG but like George R.R. Martin's:  A Song of Ice and Fire saga is totally overrated imo.

Skyrim is a mechanically great RPG.  Narratively it is firmly in "meh" territory.  Kind of the opposite of the Witcher games, which are narratively great, but mechanically firmly in "meh" territory.

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The Force shall free me.

  SEANMCAD

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/22/09
Posts: 3694

12/29/13 5:27:03 PM#79

wait..there is a story in Skyrim?

Sorry I have some 200 hours in that game and I didnt notice. 

Why? because I dont care

does your game have rainbow sprinkles and magic ponies!?

  killahh

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 449

As famous as the unknown soldier

12/29/13 6:54:11 PM#80

i swear, some of you literally have to be spoon fed rpg.

skyrim has something of a narrative, but its up to you to fill out the story, or adventure of the one who would go on to become the dragonborn.

ive invested a huge amount of time into skyrim, let alone oblivion, and skyrim is fantastic in the story it can tell.

how? you decide the story, then make it happen.

this last time after escaping the dragon carnage at helgen i went straight to riften, entered the thieves guild, have done the main quest line, have replentished the guilds funds, and have become the boss, however, i did become a nightingale , and thus sold my soul in the process, now i don't like that idea, and have decided to do whatever i can to change my fate, and ultimately rule skyrim

i won't hear the call to be dragonborn until i have decided its time, i will amass power and do whatever i want to do till i heed the call, then do what needs to be done.

with mods that give extra areas, and me doing some modding to be able to kill the planar representation of the  demigod responcible  for my soul shackles, (current project)it will be sweet justice in the end.

dont want to rpg, then skyrim isn't for you.

 

 

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

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