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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Sandbox PvP - Why has no one copied EVE?

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41 posts found
  maplestone

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

12/22/13 10:40:40 PM#21

It is an interesting question.  I'm not looking for a PvP game personally, but I do see it cited by a few games in development (eg:Pathfinder).  I think the problem is that EvE isn't just a diffierent species of game, it's a different genus, family, order ...  it's not yet clear that mixing and matching EvE concepts with other games will work without making a complete clone of it.

  Boneserino

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 569

 
OP  12/22/13 10:43:31 PM#22
Originally posted by Deathenger

One of the many things that makes EvE work is travel. Generally the more dangerous route, or area, the more ISK can be made be it resources, missions or whatever. Risk vs reward.

Player politics are also a major part of the game. Thats not something a dev can create. They can only add the tools, its up to the players to make that part of the game a success.

Agree both your points are strong suits in EVE's favor. 

 

As for politics would you consider the success of this aspect might have something to do with the fact that people are able to create more than one ship, and are generally playing for the purpose of improving their fleet as a whole, versus  I just have this one ship and I want to make it the biggest and baddest in the galaxy?   Does it make the game less player centric and more conducive to game politics?

 

I think if you are simply focused on one character, it merely becomes mainly about that character and not what is happening in the world. 

In EVE you are creating characters (ships) and improving them in order to be able to influence the world around you.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Boneserino

Novice Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 569

 
OP  12/22/13 10:49:25 PM#23
Originally posted by kraizy

it has to do with you post your argument was that eve is succesfull to its ship loosing design and that you dont loose or that your character doesnt has to die. Ultima and Neocron are games where you play with a character and there were succesfull.

And my hole point is i dont think that the mechanics in a open world pvp game how pvp is deployed is the reason for its success.

And I would quite simply have to disagree. :)

 

About the last part that is.

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Horusra

Elite Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 1767

12/22/13 10:55:02 PM#24
Eve small over head for development due to lack of graphic design and game mechanics (physics, character motion, environmental effects, etc...) allowed for a smaller player base to support the game in its infancy.  To find a large number of people willing to pay for a game that has to have sub standard graphics and mechanics while it develops off your subscription payment is going to be hard.  Eve had a very rocky start, but did not require anywhere near the amounts of money that games need now to design.  It could float by.  Good luck with that now days.  One bug and your game is screwed it seems.  Bad graphics might as well put it to F2P right now. 
  thecapitaine

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 317

12/22/13 10:55:19 PM#25

This may sound crazy but I think one of EVE's real winning decisions is having space divided into high, low, and null-sec.  It seems like other OWPVP games completely neglect or overlook the benefit of having a system like EVE's that caters to a range of interests while still allowing players the freedom to shape the world.  From a casual observer (and short-time player) of the game, EVE holds itself up as an internally consistent actual world, where PVP is a means to an end unlike some games where it seems the world is simply a big arena for people to fight inside.  It may be a fine distinction but it's still evident to me.

 

EVE is no less hardcore for having relatively safer areas and, apparently, a lot of their subscribers enjoy the game without ever venturing into less secure space.  Why other games and designers believe that their worlds must be entirely no-holds-barred killzone fragfests from the moment you log in is beyond me.  You'll stay very niche and ultra hardcore if your game fails to give new players time to acclimate and get invested in your game (without being cannon fodder for weeks).

  asmkm22

Elite Member

Joined: 11/29/06
Posts: 1616

12/22/13 10:55:58 PM#26

PVP in Eve isn't really that great.  It's good enough, and contributes well to the rest of the game, but it's not something that many people like.  Eve is popular with a very select group of people, that just happen to be fairly world-wide.

You make me like charity

  LeGrosGamer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 164

12/22/13 10:59:01 PM#27

 There are a few facts you need to understand about EVE-Online.  For starters, EVE ain't all that popular in the sense that for a game that's always talked about, you'll rarely see 70K people online (Haven't played since 2011, having played since 2004, and out of those 70K you need to account for the crap load of multi clients, botters, scammers) at once and the game has been running for 10+ years. Also you need to remember that sandbox = niche, so it doesn't please all that many people to play in a open world FFA PvP. If it did, CCP wouldn't of bothered with Dust 514 since EVE would of had a few hundred K's online at once.  

 

  Anyway, you got Star Citizen and Novus Aeterno that will most likely start the down fall of EVE-Online and force CCP on putting EVE-Online F2P.    It's a shame though, CCP has been at it for 10 years on EVE-Online and they always made it easier for grieffers to piss people off and scamming is part of the game.  Oh well it's their bad, since we got 2 awesome games coming in to replace EVE, but it will most likely happen in 2015.  Novus Aeterno is suppose to enter Alpha in April 2014 and if everything goes to plan, Beta at the end of 2014.  Where as Star Citizen, we might see it in Alpha by mid way / Q3 2014. 

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 649

12/22/13 11:18:59 PM#28

none incoming games cant replace Eve in next 10 years

Eve is something special & unique in mmo genre

I have no idea why none copied Eve?  perfect mmorpg concept !

maybe it is not about game, maybe  it is  all about players or  it is just New Eden Universe !

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Demensha

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/13/04
Posts: 62

12/22/13 11:22:11 PM#29
Originally posted by Loktofeit
The only game designer I can see making an EVE-like sandbox MMO that isn't just a cheap copy of the UI/gameplay (Perpetuum) or a barebones gankfest (some other recent MMOs) is Raph Koster. I really  think he 'gets it' and understands what's involved in making an engaging, open world PVP, virtual world/universe. 

Played Eve for 5 years and Perpetuum for 2 years (still playing) . My opinion is Perpetuum's PvP is far superior to Eve's PvP in every way. The subs dont reflect this. odd

 

  Gaendric

Elite Member

Joined: 4/20/04
Posts: 279

12/22/13 11:44:04 PM#30
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph

none incoming games cant replace Eve in next 10 years

Eve is something special & unique in mmo genre

I have no idea why none copied Eve?  perfect mmorpg concept !

maybe it is not about game, maybe  it is  all about players or  it is just New Eden Universe !

Yeah, not sure EvE can even be simply copied.

Maybe the structures that make it so unique and great have to slowly evolve in a growing game and wouldn't replicate in a big launch AAA style setup with a big scale goldrush mentality.

Eve starting out relatively small/niche is probably one of it's strengths and the reason why it is like it is.

 

The mind projection fallacy is the assumption that our subjective judgments (or lack thereof) reflect intrinsic qualities of objects or reality in general.

  faided

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/18/03
Posts: 88

12/22/13 11:45:06 PM#31
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by kraizy

First of all eve is by far not the first open world pvp game that was succesful!

Second maybe eves pvp mechanics are working but its a game pure for geeks you love it or its boring like hell .

For me Neocron was the only open world pvp game that could cut it.

 

Then I will rephrase that to say the one that has been successful the longest.   And also the one most quoted by PvP proponents.

How do you measure success?  By how long the game has been running?  In that case UO is still running and still have open world PvP, and was also produced before Eve...

 

And they don't work well b/c since the beginning of MMO's if you give full PvP will full Loot you will ultimately for some unknown reason have people who get upset when they lose a virtual item, or all of them to the point that they quit, or rage quit. Also there tend to be a larger amount of PK's as apposed to Anti PK's in these games so defending the innocent gets hard.

  reeereee

Elite Member

Joined: 3/22/13
Posts: 490

12/23/13 12:38:51 AM#32
How well is EVE really doing?  It's certainly able to stay afloat but with another round of layoffs for the WoD staff I'm starting to have my doubts that CCP is a shining beacon of success.
  obsolete5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/13
Posts: 83

12/23/13 12:59:18 AM#33

eve has too many safe zones.  i like zero safe zones and a havoc filled starter area.  also i dislike absolute full drop, i like looting other players, but i like to have some sort of protection system i can manage if i play intelligently without mistakes for my own gear.  of course these items still have value to other players if lost, and it seems there are always people who end up dropping valuable armor pieces even with the safety system, either due to the slight randomness and not full precaution or because of certain circumstances

 

also im sick of people saying, WoW does tons of business, every game needs to copy wow.  guess what also does a lot of business, McDonalds.  but i dont want every restaurant and chef out there saying, We need to exactly copy McDonalds!!!

  BlazeIV

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/27/12
Posts: 11

12/23/13 1:20:54 AM#34

One of the many, but I believe it to be the largest, reasons for EVE's success, as opposed to other open world PvP titles, is what the above poster just railed against.  EVE has the largest number of areas "safe" from PvP, in regards to other games of similar stature.  A single player can play the game for YEARS and never need to leave the safety of high-sec space.

In fact, last time I checked the numbers, it was reported that somewhere in the ballpark of HALF of all EVE players never, EVER, leave high-sec space.  50%.  In other words, half of all people who play EVE aren't PvPers.  The next reported figure was that of the half of players who do report leaving high-sec space, half of them only do so for short periods.  Most of them reporting outings to only low-sec areas, with numbers even lower saying they actually go into null-sec.  In other words, only one-fourth of all EVE players both "live and work" in null sec-space.  Only 25% of all EVE players actually play the game as a full-fledged, no holds barred, hardcore, in your face PvPer.

Like I said, it has been a long time since I reviewed those numbers and recent data could show a marked difference in those statistics.  What do I take away from those numbers?  EVE is not as popular for PvP as people make it out to be, when they try to use it as an example of a successful PvP game.

  rounner

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/06
Posts: 498

12/23/13 1:59:36 AM#35
I'll respond just because everyone else went off on a tangent: I've thought about it too, not being bound to a single avatar but either having a team that gets replenished, or taking on apprentices to replace the fallen avatar. A slightly off example might be the samurai game of around 2000 Throne of darkness that was like diablo, and you had a team of 7 or so chars that you could summon.
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1456

12/23/13 9:34:57 AM#36
Originally posted by Gaendric
Originally posted by Agent_Joseph

none incoming games cant replace Eve in next 10 years

Eve is something special & unique in mmo genre

I have no idea why none copied Eve?  perfect mmorpg concept !

maybe it is not about game, maybe  it is  all about players or  it is just New Eden Universe !

Yeah, not sure EvE can even be simply copied.

Maybe the structures that make it so unique and great have to slowly evolve in a growing game and wouldn't replicate in a big launch AAA style setup with a big scale goldrush mentality.

Eve starting out relatively small/niche is probably one of it's strengths and the reason why it is like it is.

My opinion is that this is very much true.  EvE grew into it's success it's didn't spring to it on a single day.  It struggled for many years as a niche game with dev's that really fought to make it grow.  I'm not sure a investor or even crowd funded game can operate this way as the expectations for a quick return are just to great and if it doesn't have a home run launch people are more willing to just cut their loses and move on rather than stick with the title.

  jesteralways

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 399

12/23/13 9:40:41 AM#37
I thought the reason why EVE PvP so famous is that players can take coffee break in the middle of PvP and when they come back their ship still there firing at enemy. or maybe i just read or saw some old video/article. 

No panties, No Life

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 5741

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

12/23/13 10:37:05 AM#38

I have a question: How big is EVE, compare Eve's safe area's to safe area's in PVP oriented "land played"  MMO's?

I think (yet not sure) that to "transelate" EVE's gameplay both PVP and it's PVE you need to have a very hugh none-space MMORPG. And just feel most are just to small to achieve the same thing EVE achieves due to EVE being set in space.

 

 

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

12/23/13 10:37:56 AM#39

Speaking only for myself...and I don't play EvE... is that I have plenty of interest in sandbox style games but little interest if FFA full loot PvP games. Too often FFA games seem to fall into the trap of murder/psycopath simulators. That is because the same sort of societal pressures that work in real society...or even our logical fantasy/sci-fi equivalents, the type you might actualy expect coming out of a novel or D&D campaign don't really apply very well in MMO's.

Unless you are playing in a completely dystopean setting....and are purposefully signing up to do that. It is very unlikely that most people you meet will kill and/or rob you. Most people you meet will be generaly honest citizens of whatever society they are a member of and can be expected to behave within the constraints of such. Yes, you might encounter the occasional criminal, traitor or miscreant....but they are few and far between and it's often possible to have some expectation of who these individuals might be. You function as a part of society and tend to have built in allies. Your society might be at war with another society....but you have some ready expectation of who those individuals might be, why you are fighting them and where and when they might be encounter (thus faction based PvP doesn't suffer from the same sort of hits). When you travel out into the wilds, out into dangerous lands, you do so with the foreknowledge and full expectation of danger at any turn.

This is where FFA PvP games tend to break down. Most people don't want to ALWAYS have to be on guard, to never be able to trust ANYONE, to never have anyone that you know you can work with and be supported by. To be betrayed, slain and robbed for seemingly no reason. Even in most FPS games where you are constantly fighting....the popular ones are always team vs another. In an MMO, you don't want the kind of constant vigilance, alertness and pace that you do from a FPS game that you might only play for an hour or so.....you want down time, slow time, time where you can relax a bit in addition to the alert times of danger.....and when you do experience danger, you want some sense that you are not completely alone, that you have others interested in watching your back for you and working toward the same goal.

 

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11352

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

12/23/13 12:06:23 PM#40
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by Deathenger

One of the many things that makes EvE work is travel. Generally the more dangerous route, or area, the more ISK can be made be it resources, missions or whatever. Risk vs reward.

Player politics are also a major part of the game. Thats not something a dev can create. They can only add the tools, its up to the players to make that part of the game a success.

Agree both your points are strong suits in EVE's favor. 

As for politics would you consider the success of this aspect might have something to do with the fact that people are able to create more than one ship, and are generally playing for the purpose of improving their fleet as a whole, versus  I just have this one ship and I want to make it the biggest and baddest in the galaxy?   Does it make the game less player centric and more conducive to game politics?

I think if you are simply focused on one character, it merely becomes mainly about that character and not what is happening in the world. 

In EVE you are creating characters (ships) and improving them in order to be able to influence the world around you.

Your ship in EVE is a consumable. I don't think that anyone viewing their ships as characters would last very long in EVE. Your character is, well... your character. It carries far more weight than any ship or fleet of ships will ever carry, because your reputation is important. When big problems needed a mediator, people turned to Vile Rat. When people are doing a multi-billion ISK trade, they turn to people like Chribba for a trustworthy middleman and secure transactions. Sending out a fleet, you assign fleet commanders that have proven themselves in combat. 

The fact that EVE is so player-centric is what makes the politics work. The leaders on various levels regularly interact with each other not only in game but in various voice and text chat channels. When doing so on a regular basis, there is a certain connection that becomes more real and personal than any ship, fleet of ships, or avatar can create. That's where the politics plays out - on the forums, in the propaganda videos, at the alliance summits. Between the players. 

A certain portion of EVE's politics is due to the infrastructure that constantly evolves to support it, but the heart of it is the interactive, creative and passionate gamers that make up the amazing EVE community. Actually, most of the in-game tools are for resolving issues when player politics and diplomacy fails. :) 

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