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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why limiting MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous

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242 posts found
  moosecatlol

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/25/10
Posts: 1184

12/19/13 9:13:47 PM#141
Instead of creating a game where players have to actually need to learn how to play, why not make a game that they can easily figure out and ultimately master with little to no effort.
  Scorchien

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/06
Posts: 1108

12/19/13 9:20:54 PM#142
Originally posted by moosecatlol
Instead of creating a game where players have to actually need to learn how to play, why not make a game that they can easily figure out and ultimately master with little to no effort.

they already made that game .. its called GW2

  djazzy

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/05
Posts: 3623

12/19/13 9:22:02 PM#143
Originally posted by donpopuki
We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

agreed

look at games such as DCUO or Vindictus. A lot of the abilities are performed by the way you click the mouse (ie hold left mouse and then tap the right mouse button). They have multiple abilities that way when on the surface it looks as if you have very few skills.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 6023

12/19/13 9:32:23 PM#144
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by stealthbr

I believe the discussion has deviated far too greatly from its original idea. This trend is establishing itself in modern MMO's, regardless of whether they have "action combat" or not, and that is alarming. Just look at games such as Guild Wars 2, Everquest Next, Wildstar, Neverwinter, ESO, etc.

Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

A character has 12 skills available in Neverwinter: 2 at will, 3 encounter - TAB to add functionality + 2 dailies. Even if you only count the 7 available without TAB shifting it still has a more diverse and dynamic combat element than say EQ2 or LotRO. I rarely use more than 8 - 10 skills in either of those games on my warden or lore-master.

Curse you AquaScum!

  FlyByKnight

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/31/12
Posts: 521

12/19/13 9:34:31 PM#145
Why can't a developer do this?  Never more than 5 skills in the toolbar at a time. Include this with a combo system and you've got all types of possibilities.  Its one of the things I kinda like about GW2 (as an engineer). They just lack some sort of combo system. I'll take this over  15-20 buttons on the screen at  time.
  • Tilde -  Returns To Main Skill bar
  • Button 1- Debuff Stance
    • 1) Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
    • 2) Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
    • 3) Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
    • 4) Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
  • Button 2 - Melee Attack Stance
    • 1) Melee attack -- single target
    • 2) Melee attack -- aoe sweep
  • Button 3 - Magic Attack Stance
    • 1) Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
    • 2) Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
    • 3) Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
    • 4) Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
    • 5) Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
  • Button 4 - CC Stance
    • 1) Stun -- single target
    • 2) Stun -- aoe
    • 3) Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
  • Button 5 - Heal Stance
    • 1) Heal -- single target heals health of ally
    • 2) Heal -- heals power of ally
  stealthbr

Novice Member

Joined: 5/07/06
Posts: 1059

12/19/13 9:48:30 PM#146
Originally posted by donpopuki
We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

I highly doubt hotbars are on their way out simply because developers have yet to offer a more efficient and easier manner for a player to interact with his character's various abilities.

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1061

12/19/13 10:20:21 PM#147
Originally posted by Torvaldr

A character has 12 skills available in Neverwinter: 2 at will, 3 encounter - TAB to add functionality + 2 dailies. Even if you only count the 7 available without TAB shifting it still has a more diverse and dynamic combat element than say EQ2 or LotRO. I rarely use more than 8 - 10 skills in either of those games on my warden or lore-master.

Daily skills are not always available. They have to be built up in order to be used. TAB is not a skill. Its 5 skills you have period.

And no, it does not matter that you personally chose to use only 8 to 10 of your classes skills in another game because the entire argument is that the more skills you have to chose from the more ways you can play, or are you really trying to say that EVERYONE that played those classes played exactly the same way you did and ignored all the other skills? because you would be wrong if you are saying it and if you are not saying it you are only proving our point for us.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  JJ82

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 1061

12/19/13 10:22:28 PM#148
Originally posted by FlyByKnight
Why can't a developer do this?  Never more than 5 skills in the toolbar at a time. Include this with a combo system and you've got all types of possibilities.  Its one of the things I kinda like about GW2 (as an engineer). They just lack some sort of combo system. I'll take this over  15-20 buttons on the screen at  time.
  • Tilde -  Returns To Main Skill bar
  • Button 1- Debuff Stance
    • 1) Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
    • 2) Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
    • 3) Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
    • 4) Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
  • Button 2 - Melee Attack Stance
    • 1) Melee attack -- single target
    • 2) Melee attack -- aoe sweep
  • Button 3 - Magic Attack Stance
    • 1) Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
    • 2) Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
    • 3) Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
    • 4) Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
    • 5) Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
  • Button 4 - CC Stance
    • 1) Stun -- single target
    • 2) Stun -- aoe
    • 3) Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
  • Button 5 - Heal Stance
    • 1) Heal -- single target heals health of ally
    • 2) Heal -- heals power of ally

 

That is not that far from GW2 Elementalist, only you use the F keys to swap skills. Man I really wish that game wasn't so focused on PvP end game...

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  VincerKaden

Novice Member

Joined: 8/12/06
Posts: 460

12/19/13 10:43:56 PM#149

I like the idea of having a limited number of slotted abilities. It forces me to make choices that matter and makes each character of the same class have the potential to be slightly different at a given moment.

On the other hand, I like having a larger selection of skills to choose from if they all have meaning. To the OP's Loremaster example, I find that class (and the LOTRO Captain class) enjoyable because of their various uses as utility/support classes. That's a personal preference of mine. If either of those classes had to be reduced down to only 5 or so skills, then they would be very poor utility classes, and I'd enjoy them less.

So it's very much a matter of opinion and personal taste. There's no right or wrong way to go. Not every game should be made the same anyway. If a game in question doesn't have the number or type of skills that are preferred by a given player, then said player should not feel the need to (a) play the game nor (b) ask that the game be changed. Especially when there are so many MMOs on the market to choose from.

  User Deleted
12/19/13 10:54:37 PM#150
Originally posted by olepi

I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

  • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
  • Melee attack -- single target
  • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
  • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
  • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
  • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
  • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
  • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
  • Stun -- single target
  • Stun -- aoe
  • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
  • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
  • Heal -- heals power of ally
 
That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
 
Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

 I disagree with you, mostly.  Im not one for console gaming well besides rockband.  I do think that most mmorpgs toss out abilities like candy turning most classes into much to well rounded combatants.  I also think 5 main combat abilities isnt to few.  Most buffs can be cast out of combat, so they can be relegated to a menu related cast, this also includes out of combat rezing.

  You could take 5 core abilities and work with them in such a way as for them to have multiple effects such as a single target ability that heals when cast on allies and deals damage when cast on enemies.  You can also condense abilities in other logical ways as in your lotro character sticky tar could also gain the effect of an attack speed slow, which imo makes sense and decreases your ability pool by 1 more.

  I would much prefer a system where the advantage of multiple abilities is balanced by the specializing in a few.  I would much rather build a character with 8 specialized abilities that perform at their peak than having 16 mediocre abilities.  The problem with most if not all mmorpgs is that they do not give you a choice.

  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3587

12/19/13 10:54:56 PM#151

The real issue at hand isn't how many abilities your character/avatar can perform.

It's how many you need to have immediate access to via hotkeys/buttonbars/etc at any given time.

With 5 (or whatever number you choose to pick) buttons to push, you can still have a huge variety of various skills available, via things like combos, chording, length of button press, position in relation to enemy, synergy with other PC/NPC abilities, etc.

Don't confuse only having 5 buttons available with only having 5 skills available.

I'm all for simplifying the interface - the interface shouldn't be complicated, it's an unnatural and restrictive device that is meant to allow you, as the player, to interact with your character/avatar and the world they are in. The less obtrusive, the more natural, and the more ubiquitous the UI is, the better. A UI you don't notice, you don't have to play with, you don't have to set up massive amounts of button bars and arcane hotkey shortcuts (not to confuse that with the inability to customize, that's not what I'm saying) - that's a good UI. It means you can get down to the business of actually playing the game rather than fussing with the UI.

The OP just made the (incorrect) assumption that fewer available buttons to press = fewer skills to use. Which isn't necessarily true.

  artemisentr4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/08
Posts: 1442

12/19/13 11:00:14 PM#152

For me, it really depends on how the 5 skills would work. It you only have 5 skills and nothing else, then it is not enough. But having those skills as more of an auxiliary  role wouldn't be bad.

 

Having the right/left mouse buttons used as main attack and defend. Add in a dodge and or some kind of sneak. Maybe a daily and potion slots. Add in a swap to get more skills. Then you can have a much deeper skill rotation with just 5 skills per weapon. Then the skills become part of your character. They would be used based on a given situation instead of spammed in a rotation.

“How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
R.A.Salvatore

  kilun

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/25/07
Posts: 691

12/19/13 11:22:12 PM#153
Originally posted by olepi
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by olepi
5 buttons is more than enough? For 2 heals, 4 debuffs, 2 melee attacks, 4 magic attacks, and 2 stuns?

 

 

Really?




You've created a scenario where the only answer the is the one you've presented. The problem is that this sets you up as the one who decides what's good or bad, right or wrong. Which means it's all your opinion. There's nothing objective here, just your opinions.

**

So in LotRO, five skills wouldn't be enough because the game is setup around the idea that five skills isn't enough. That doesn't mean the same thing holds true in any other MMORPG.

 

 

My main point is that as a "utility" class, my strength is having a lot of options, and being able to pop one out depending on the circumstances. By limiting the available abilities to 5, you have effectively destroyed what a "utility" class is.

You have four debuffs, which could effectively be rolled into one skill that gains a new debuffing as your level grows, or it could have a path which has a small debuff to all(Magic, defense, etc), but you then allocate points into it to make it fit your play style and specialize on a specific element to debuff.

The whole thing is you only have 4 different single target attacks because that is how the game is made, to work on a skill rotation of a wide array of skills.  It can easily be made not to and work differently.

Do I think five is a bit small, yeah, I think most games have found the sweet spot to be between 7-10.  Perfect amount and one hotbar.

  Whytewulf

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 8

12/19/13 11:28:59 PM#154

My Preference is the following:  Many abilities learned and more than 5 less than 85 abilities on your hot bars.

 

I think the difference is type of MMORPG, action oriented or  more role-playing.  As I think many of the abilities aren't just for true combat.  But I also don't think being able to quick move is a sign of "skill" it's a sign a particular skill, and as "older" players, lose some of that ability strategy would come into play more.

 

I prefer role playing MMORPGs, vs. the more action type like Tera.  So forgot Utility (probably greatest needs to more hot buttons) to a basic sword and board fighter.  As role player, I don't want to spam, little hit, big hit, stun, taunt, rinse repeat.  I really like how GW2 has the ability to switch buttons when you change a weapon, but I don't think they use it right.   So lets say I am in a small group, I am the main melee or even tank to use those maligned words these days.   I want to be able to use a skill based on the situation, which could change.  Yes there would be some repetition, as certain fights may go similarly, but in general, you could even get away with 8 ish hot buttons, but others come up as your mob does something.  But I may need/want a quick strike, a large strike, a bash, a cover friend, maybe a debuff shout (optional versions), a kick (my favorite ability in most games), etc.  I think this is where some ingenuity comes into play. 

The big thing is for the love of all that is gaming, someone create a smart weapon spell system.  DDO came close, but as a caster why does a fire spell hurt a fire newts, or cold effect a snow creature.  A mace should do more against a skelly.. ok let's say you are sword guy, wait here come the options.  you are fighting a skelly and a bugbear.  You may flat swing against the skelly and poke the bugbear.  maybe more shield damage against skelly and slashing against bugbear. 

Needless to say this also means, you might need hotbuttons for potions, food, drink, scrolls, trinkets, pets, stances, etc.  Which is why MMORPGs will probably always work better with a keyboard. 

  Aelious

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12/19/13 11:29:41 PM#155
While five active abilities is indeed on the small side the idea for action-ish combat (which is what the OP was alluding to) is looking at the action, not juggling UI boxes. Working smarter, not harder I think applies and I agree with those talking about chained skills, conditional effects, etc.

If we're taking about tab target combat then more hotbar skills makes sense, less may make combat boring since positioning isn't as important.
  User Deleted
12/19/13 11:44:15 PM#156
Originally posted by collekt

This may be the case for that game, but I'd rather not have such homogenized skills. There are other types of CC than stun, slow, and snare. There are also different kinds of healing mechanics that can be utilized. There are many things you can do with damage to prevent it from being so straight forward, boring, and brainless.. such as resistances, damage types, damage abilities with secondary effects, etc.

I didn't homogenise those, that was all that LOTRO had already. We were referring to the Loremaster specifically, they have a single heal and only those CC.

Changing resistances? That will just result in changing macros based on where you are fighting / which boss you are fighting. Kind of like swapping between skills in these limited hotbar games.  GW1 had only 8 slots and did this with resistances.  Certain enemies were resistant to bleeds (elementals) so you would use direct damage skills instead.  Some enemies were resistant to fire, so you would use one of the other elemental builds instead.  Based on what you suggest, GW1 is the perfect example of why you don't need 5 hotbars of skills to have tactical gameplay.  

  User Deleted
12/20/13 12:01:45 AM#157
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by donpopuki
We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

I highly doubt hotbars are on their way out simply because developers have yet to offer a more efficient and easier manner for a player to interact with his character's various abilities.

 

Plenty of single player RPGs have.  Dynamic skills that change based on how and when you use them. Do we really need a separate button for backstab? Shouldn't that just be what a normal stab attack becomes when you are behind an opponent?  Do you need a fire wall spell when you could just target your flame spell at the floor and create one?

MMOs are stuck in the past. We need to move on from 40+ skills (all clutter with little variation) and think outside the box.  Neverwinter actually went this way a bit with how skills changed when you used your special skills (stealth, holy charge, block, magic focus) but it could be taken a lot further.

  azzamasin

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12/20/13 12:02:20 AM#158
Originally posted by olepi

I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

  • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
  • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
  • Melee attack -- single target
  • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
  • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
  • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
  • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
  • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
  • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
  • Stun -- single target
  • Stun -- aoe
  • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
  • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
  • Heal -- heals power of ally
 
That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
 
Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

While 5 is too few IMO, having so many of those skills you list is silly when they can be condensed down to fewer buttons and gets the players eyes off the UI and onto the action.  I feel the sweet spot is between 8 and 12.  Any more and your diluting your toolset.  A carpenter doesn't use any more tools then necessary to finish the job.

 

4 debuffs? is 3 debuffs too many.  1 Attack for Single Target and 1 for AOE.  Magic or Melee not both.  CC and heals are best left to classes/players whose primary roles are CC and heals.

 

 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

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Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/20/13 12:04:11 AM#159
Originally posted by evilastro
Originally posted by stealthbr
Originally posted by donpopuki
We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

I highly doubt hotbars are on their way out simply because developers have yet to offer a more efficient and easier manner for a player to interact with his character's various abilities.

 

Plenty of single player RPGs have.  Dynamic skills that change based on how and when you use them. Do we really need a separate button for backstab? Shouldn't that just be what a normal stab attack becomes when you are behind an opponent?  Do you need a fire wall spell when you could just target your flame spell at the floor and create one?

MMOs are stuck in the past. We need to move on from 40+ skills (all clutter with little variation) and think outside the box.  Neverwinter actually went this way a bit with how skills changed when you used your special skills (stealth, holy charge, block, magic focus) but it could be taken a lot further.

Exactly.

 

Or at the very least I would prefer to see a Chronicles of Spellborne type of rotating hotbar where you had access to only a few skills at a time and it was up to the player to build their bars optimally.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  azzamasin

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Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2824

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/20/13 12:10:52 AM#160
Originally posted by collekt
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by collekt

Originally posted by lizardbones Well, if you're going to stand there playing the whack-a-mole equivalent of a game of chess, then yes, 5 active skills are not going to cut it. If, on the other hand, combat requires some movement, switching weapons or skill sets during the fight and perhaps some sort of cover, then 5 buttons is more than enough. ** ** Oops, wrong thread. :-) **
So, you believe that you can't move around and use more than 5 skills? LOL.. Please open your eyes, because that is an incredibly short sighted assumption.

 

 

Let me preface this by saying that I don't play WoW anymore, and I'm not a fan of where they've taken the game. However, think about the fact that people play PvP in WoW and constantly move around, hide behind objects, etc. all while using ~30-40 abilities/macros. Now, I'm not saying this is optimal and that you need so many. I also understand that we aren't necessarily talking about PvP. However, I think it's safe to say that if I can anticipate other real players, move around constantly, and still not feel overwhelmed with abilities, then we can easily handle a few more than 5 while moving around.

 

Edit: Also, I've said it once and I'll say it again. With 5 abilities, there is very little room for players to differentiate themselves from better/worse players. Combat just devolves into a system where you know the sequence of attacks you're going to use before you even know what you're going to fight against. This system is boring, and I think we can handle something a little more complex.




One skill slot is enough to differentiate between good and bad players. A good player will use that one skill better than a bad player. The number of skill slots available is irrelevant to determine good and bad players.

I never said a player couldn't move around and use more than five skills. I'm not sure why you think I was saying that.

What I'm saying is that the premise that more than five active skills are required for a game to be good is just wrong. If that were true, every game would have more than five skills. Console controllers would have twenty active buttons, in addition to the joypads and joysticks.

The premise that five active skills are required for an MMORPG to be good is wrong as well. If the game is based around tab targeting and hot keys, then of course more hot keys are needed because that is the focus of the combat. On the other hand if the focus of the combat is something else, then a bunch of hot keys aren't needed.

The whole idea of many hot keys is good is based around the idea that there is only one scenario and one setup available for MMOs, and that's not true.

 

Well, this is all subjective so everything you're saying is wrong is just an opinion. You can't compare single player console games to a MMORPG on PC. I'm also not saying it's impossible to make a decent game that only uses 5 skills, but it does seem very boring to me for an MMORPG. 

To address your point that number of abilities is irrelevant though, I feel this is very wrong. Sure there will be better players even with fewer skills, but you think it doesn't take more thought when you have 25? I'm not saying you need 25, but this is just an example. If I need to choose the right skill to use at the right moment, it's more difficult to process 25 choices than 5.

Where is the fun in having access to every skill your class has?  Too me 95% of the fun is allotting which skill on my limited bar to use, having to make hard choices and sacrifice for the sake not only balance but in order to create the perfect complimentary of skills to use at a given time.  It revolves around choice, freedom and deckbuilding that makes RPG's so damn fun in the first place for me. 

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

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