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  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17085

12/18/13 7:54:44 PM#41
Originally posted by DamonVile

Company of heroes has a bio on famous generals or commanders..in fact most military sims have tons of history in them.  Most of the scenarios in wwII sims are refighting actual battles. They often start with what actually happened, and why it was happening followed by a sitrep.

Most of my knowledge of Us geography and city location originally comes from railroad tycoon ( I don't live in the US ) they may not be packed full of actual "learning" but they did inspire me to learn a lot about history playing them and wanting to know more.

Well, in that case, that's great. I have yet to play those and if they offer entertainment and are still historically accurate then that's certainly a good example.

 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17085

12/18/13 8:01:30 PM#42
Originally posted by Axeshun

 

 

I have to agree that you are not really learning much playing video games. And if you are looking to educate yourself, gaming is one of the last places I would turn to. Maybe a few puzzle solving games allow for some form of trouble shooting brain training or may Age of Empires or similar games  that are founded upon historical events.  But in the same breath, Id have to say that reading a biography is about as close to reading a text book as it comes.  They are both hobbies and are to be treated as so.  Most all hobbies are "wastes" of time.  What is the point of playing basketball if you are not going to the NBA? Surely there is a more efficient way to exercise.  Whats the point of hunting if you arent doing it to feed your family? What is the point of reading a book if there is no test or you arent teaching a class?

I'll have to slightly disagree with you there. Basketball is amazing exercise. So is handball. They are both exercise and entertaining.

I find biographies to be great stories "if" they are written to be entertaining as well as factual.

So sure, there are some biographies that feel like textbooks. But that's the thing, textbooks are just about giving you info and I don't read any of my textbooks for enjoyment yet I find books on history that help bring it alive, make it entertaining and real, yet actually teach us something, to be entertaining and informative.

I agree with the hunting but others find it sport so there it is.

I'm curious, do you ever read anything other than fiction? And if you do read non-fiction what would it be? I know I don't really read fiction anymore as a lot of it started getting really dopey. Mostly my fault as I seemed to be picking the wrong books. I started solely reading history and biography but only those that were meant to also entertain as after a while the "textbooks" would just be too dull and seemed more about cramming bits and bits into the page for the sake of being complete.

 

  Avarix

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/22/12
Posts: 282

12/18/13 8:07:06 PM#43
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by WabbaWay
 

So you can learn things from reading a book, but not from playing a game? Okay, well that's the dumbest thing i heard this week. 

EDIT: Typo

That's great, give an example. And not of a "learning game". A  game created/engineered specifically for learning.

Second dumbest thing heard this week.

You want an example of a game that you can learn from that isn't a learning game...ok, so lets toss out all of the learning books and compare notes shall we.

BTW, learning how to play the game is learning...You learn more from playing a game than watching CSI or any other crap show on TV and you sure as hell learn more from a game than reading Twilight or hell, even Lord of the Rings and that was called the greatest books of the last 100 years.

I'll give you the point, but "my" point is that video games aren't really about learning unless they are created to be about learning.

I can read a book that is riveting and learn something about history or science and yet the book doesn't have to be a text book.

But with video games I have rarely seen one that lets me finish with a "wow I picked up some really interesting and true things" without the game being specifically about "training my brain" or "teaching me to type".

Per the highlighted portion above: Reading my biography on Houdini taught me a lot about his life and his times but it wasn't a history textbook and certainly not as dry as many I have read. It was a riveting story about an actual person's life. and mostly for entertainment but there was a lot about his times that could be taken away.

Reading my biography on Samuel Barber was pretty dull and dry, true, but reading "The princes in the Tower" was very interesting and always kept my attention. It was entertaining yet had educational value.

The games we play on this site don't really provide learning opportunities. They are primarily entertainment I can't name a first person shooter that does. Maybe a strategy game such as the total war series. But mostly, video games come off as entertainment and are very light on anything educational unless they are specifically made to be educational.

Most games that teach you or stretch your brain are simply created strictly for that purpose. At least my experience which Is why I asked to name one that wasn't.

As far as "learning how to play a game is learning" that goes back to my original statement about "learning something that could be taken away from the game and is useful beyond the game". Unless the moves or theory can be used in some other capacity I don't really find it a valuable learning experience. You might find WASD and "this is how you craft" to be "learning" but it feels shallow to me and solely for the purpose of entertaiment.

 

 

Video games have merit as well. Take the Sid Meier's Civ series. Not only can you learn a bit about history and historical figures, it also teaches time management, negotiation techniques, military tactics, and even basic economics. I read quite a bit but I can't remember a book I read for pure entertainment that achieved the same thing.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12108

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

12/18/13 8:10:08 PM#44
Originally posted by Boo8er
I would like to know: How come people don't seem to respect playing video games like they would with other hobbies? Activities like: reading, playing sports, making music, or other hobbies are all very respected.
Why is that?

There is very little that is tangible about them that others can relate to. There is also very little that one creates from it, and often very little one does to entertain others with it.

Ask most people about their hobbies and they usually have a shelf or even an entire section of their residence devoted to it. They often have their own creative pursuits they have gone on related to it. The ability for others to visualize or experience what that person enjoys is immediate and present.

Most video gamers have their computer desk and their custom/preferred gear there. To most people, it's a computer on a desk. That Mad Catz Strike 7 just looks like a big keyboard to them, and they probably wouldn't notice anything significant about the Razer Naga sitting next to it either. Unlike movie fanatics or any other entertainment enthusiast, most gamers don't have a shelf of boxes or walls of posters related to their hobby because, well, they've got their 300 games all on Steam to save space, not use it up.

There are, of course, the enthusiasts that go to the cons, wear branded gear, buy the CEs and have a room that pretty much screams "i am gamer hear me RAWR!" People can see they are a gamer and the passion for their hobby. People can wrap their minds around the idea that this person is a gamer because of how ubiquitous a presence gaming has in this person's life.

 

Another thing worth noting is that most hobbyists have universal praise for most aspects of their hobby, whereas gamers are notorious for fucking hating everything. It's hard for outsiders to respect gaming as a hobby, when all they read/hear is its 'enthusiasts' trashtalking it 24/7.

 

 

If you feel you're not respected as a gamer, try sharing your hobby with others. If the person isn't an avid gamer, dial back to layman's speech. You'll do a lot more to get others to respect and recognize your hobby when you're not speaking an alien language. Gamers often seem exclusive, not inclusive, when they talk about gaming around others. Talking about the ADC that insisted on jungling when you needed him to lane makes for a great eye-roller between friends but everyone else is going "I guess they're talking about that gaming stuff."

 

NO HOBBY is respected until those that take part in it, share it in a way that others can understand it.  Until that time, it's just that weird thing that so-n-so is always doing.

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  kilun

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/25/07
Posts: 686

12/18/13 8:14:26 PM#45
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by WabbaWay
 

So you can learn things from reading a book, but not from playing a game? Okay, well that's the dumbest thing i heard this week. 

EDIT: Typo

That's great, give an example. And not of a "learning game". A  game created/engineered specifically for learning.

How do any of the games on this site, for example, teach us? I'm not saying they don't and I could probably suggest a few ways (that I think would be a strectch) but I can't ever recall a time in any video game on this site or any single player shooter/story driven video game, where I actually felt I learned something, that I actually gained significant knowledge of something that could be taken away from that video game and had use beyond the video game.

I'll answer this, what can I learn from a fantasy novel?  Nothing.  Sci-fi novel?  About the same.

As for what can be learned, my 6 year old is finally starting to put sentences together, but damn is his vocabulary awesome as when he plays games he learns by us reading the words on the screen (Obviously not the quest wall of text, but all the other things such as an ability name, etc)

As for is it respected?  I work in law enforcement and when I interviewed they asked what I did in my spare time.  I said I game on the computer, they asked more and nothing was judged on it.  I had one ask why that, and I told them I'm a family man and I like to be home incase my wife wants to do something, and I followed it up with would you prefer me at a bar?

The Chief and LTs both laughed and said no, a ton of the guys(unfortunately its still mainly a male dominated profession)  game in some form and yeah we'd prefer you to stay away from the bars unless your on duty and handling a call.

Like others have said, its media who placed that stigma and yet they think whatever happened on the newest reality tv singing, dancing, other crap, rigged show on History channel and a billion others yet have people watching them all night long and there is no stigma on people who watch and record 20+hrs of Tv a week?  Wow.  Lets all rot our mind worrying about someone elses fortune/disappointment.  To me that is a sad hobby of a highly depressed society as whole IMO that we are so focused on everything but our own lives.  I've never hide the fact from anyone I've worked with that I play games and never been placed in a bad light from it either to anyone that mattered.

  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 917

12/18/13 8:19:21 PM#46
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by JJ82

Second dumbest thing heard this week.

You want an example of a game that you can learn from that isn't a learning game...ok, so lets toss out all of the learning books and compare notes shall we.

BTW, learning how to play the game is learning...You learn more from playing a game than watching CSI or any other crap show on TV and you sure as hell learn more from a game than reading Twilight or hell, even Lord of the Rings and that was called the greatest books of the last 100 years.

I'll give you the point, but "my" point is that video games aren't really about learning unless they are created to be about learning.

I can read a book that is riveting and learn something about history or science and yet the book doesn't have to be a text book.

But with video games I have rarely seen one that lets me finish with a "wow I picked up some really interesting and true things" without the game being specifically about "training my brain" or "teaching me to type".

Per the highlighted portion above: Reading my biography on Houdini taught me a lot about his life and his times but it wasn't a history textbook and certainly not as dry as many I have read. It was a riveting story about an actual person's life. and mostly for entertainment but there was a lot about his times that could be taken away.

Reading my biography on Samuel Barber was pretty dull and dry, true, but reading "The princes in the Tower" was very interesting and always kept my attention. It was entertaining yet had educational value.

The games we play on this site don't really provide learning opportunities. They are primarily entertainment I can't name a first person shooter that does. Maybe a strategy game such as the total war series. But mostly, video games come off as entertainment and are very light on anything educational unless they are specifically made to be educational.

Most games that teach you or stretch your brain are simply created strictly for that purpose. At least my experience which Is why I asked to name one that wasn't.

As far as "learning how to play a game is learning" that goes back to my original statement about "learning something that could be taken away from the game and is useful beyond the game". Unless the moves or theory can be used in some other capacity I don't really find it a valuable learning experience. You might find WASD and "this is how you craft" to be "learning" but it feels shallow to me and solely for the purpose of entertaiment.

Reading the story of the Dynasty Warriors (and Romance of the Three Kingdoms) games taught me a lot about the fall of the Han Dynasty. Reading the Samurai warriors story taught a lot about the Sengoku period of Japan as well as the famous Sekigahara battle that led to the formation of the Tokugawa Shogunate.

There are plenty of examples, some are choosing to toss them aside for the purpose of argument. For arguments sake, you are taking the MMO genre, a genre that is TINY in the gaming world and using it as the shining example of video games not teaching anything. They fall into the category of FANTASY...name a FANTASY NOVEL that teaches you something.

BTW, your examples of biographies can be applied to the biographies of the characters in the above games I gave as examples, their character histories in the game are historical accounts of the people being used. If you are going to use certain types of books as an example, they need to be used against those types of games.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  User Deleted
12/18/13 8:21:27 PM#47

Because it's an isolationist hobby.  For most people, having a dozen friends in an MMO doesn't mean the same thing as having a dozen friends in real life.  The hobby is also something that provides you with absolutely nothing to show for it with most people.  If you play sports, you're probably physically fit and have an active lifestyle.  If you play music or do any kind of art,  you can essentially create something that everyone can identify with, even if they can't actually do themselves.

Video gaming, on the other hand, has pretty much no barrier to entry in terms of fitness, social grace, or intelligence, so it's basically one of the few things other than drinking with friends that anyone can have fun doing, regardless of how fat, lazy, handicapped, bored, introverted, or whatever else they may be.

Probably the most important reason, though, is that the memories you create with video games are shared with *very* few people.  I remember the first time my guild took down Onyxia back in probably 2006 or so, and how everyone on Vent was so elated and it felt like this really  big accomplishment after months of work.  I shared that moment with 39 other people, most of which I've never met and barely knew.  The next day at work, I realized how truly shallow the victory was while listening to some other people talking about a recent football game that they didn't even play in, yet both could immediately relate to.

I *connect* with more people during a night out at a bar with a few friends than I ever have playing a video game, MMO or otherwise.

  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 917

12/18/13 8:25:45 PM#48
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Because video games were first invented for kids, and now it's for all ages.

BTW this is incorrect.

Pong was the first video game, it was first placed in bars. Space invaders, Asteriods and Pac-Man were all played by more adults than kids. It wasn't until Frogger came out that they started to target a younger audience and that was AFTER trying to target women with Ms Pac-man.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4574

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/18/13 10:31:16 PM#49
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Because video games were first invented for kids, and now it's for all ages.

BTW this is incorrect.

Pong was the first video game, it was first placed in bars. Space invaders, Asteriods and Pac-Man were all played by more adults than kids. It wasn't until Frogger came out that they started to target a younger audience and that was AFTER trying to target women with Ms Pac-man.

he exprssed himself poorly but what he probably meant is this:

 

Games were first invented for kids. As they entered the 'video' medium, their reputation stayed as before.

 

 

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4605

12/18/13 10:34:54 PM#50
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Because video games were first invented for kids, and now it's for all ages.

BTW this is incorrect.

Pong was the first video game, it was first placed in bars. Space invaders, Asteriods and Pac-Man were all played by more adults than kids. It wasn't until Frogger came out that they started to target a younger audience and that was AFTER trying to target women with Ms Pac-man.

he exprssed himself poorly but what he probably meant is this:

 

Games were first invented for kids. As they entered the 'video' medium, their reputation stayed as before.

 

 

The Olympic games are around 5000 years old. It's probably time people got over the whole games are just for kids.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  thecapitaine

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/06/11
Posts: 390

12/18/13 10:35:36 PM#51
For another example of a game series with a lot of learning potential, look no further than Crusader Kings by Paradox Interactive.   (Actually, CK isn't alone-- there's Europa Universalis as well).  While the game lets history unravel in more or less random fashion, there's so much that can be learned about the time period, region, and important people.  There's a more important aspect to be considered about gaming and learning, however, and that is gaming's capacity to spark interest in expanding someone's knowledge.  A game like Kerbal Space Program can get people who might otherwise have small interest in the subject to dig deeper and there are few popular avenues for regular folks to be grabbed by such an interest.
  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 917

12/18/13 10:46:49 PM#52
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Because video games were first invented for kids, and now it's for all ages.

BTW this is incorrect.

Pong was the first video game, it was first placed in bars. Space invaders, Asteriods and Pac-Man were all played by more adults than kids. It wasn't until Frogger came out that they started to target a younger audience and that was AFTER trying to target women with Ms Pac-man.

he exprssed himself poorly but what he probably meant is this:

 

Games were first invented for kids. As they entered the 'video' medium, their reputation stayed as before.

Give...me...a...break...

And no, games were not invented for kids.

Go, is 3000 years old and was created to teach lower ranked military members basic strategy. Chess, around 2500 years old and for the same reasons as Go. Checkers also known as Draughts was again, used to teach basic strategy. Mah Jongg, around 1200 years old, was an ADULTS card game. Even Dogs and Jackals from Egypt was created for adults.

Now, want to be a little more modern? Cards, not created for kids, created for adults and used mostly for gambling. In fact, there were more types of games of chance from 1700-1900 than there are board games today.

Video games do not have its stigma due to people thinking games were made for kids. its due to the idea that it makes people anti-social...where do you think the "living in moms basement" retort comes from?

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  Heafstagg

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/02/06
Posts: 165

12/18/13 10:47:20 PM#53

I think it's because of the way certain popular video games are marketed. Lots of them are obviously targeted towards teenagers so that tends to lead people to believe that video games are for that demographic. Over-sexualization of female characters isn't doing gamers any favours either.

I know the people that tend to be really vocal about hating video games tend to come from people who've never really given gaming a go. They just assume that it makes people violent or stupid or whatever it is they believe in. Obviously its an unjustified opinion. I won't debate people like that whatsoever.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4574

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/18/13 10:56:16 PM#54
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Because video games were first invented for kids, and now it's for all ages.

BTW this is incorrect.

Pong was the first video game, it was first placed in bars. Space invaders, Asteriods and Pac-Man were all played by more adults than kids. It wasn't until Frogger came out that they started to target a younger audience and that was AFTER trying to target women with Ms Pac-man.

he exprssed himself poorly but what he probably meant is this:

 

Games were first invented for kids. As they entered the 'video' medium, their reputation stayed as before.

 

 

The Olympic games are around 5000 years old. It's probably time people got over the whole games are just for kids.

can you put this in a more coherent, less sarcastic tone? Because it's not clear what you're saying...are you implying the Olympic games came before the game of Pretending, which is more or less the ancestor of role-playing and of MMORPGs therefore?

 

gladiator fights werent for children either, yet children play gladiator games and probably pretended to be gladiators in their play eve before there was such a thing as a gladiator.

 

exactly how do the Olympic games fit in the discussion?

 

it's a chicken/egg discussion if the first game was played by an ault, or a child, or a child and an adult together. However during the Industrial revolution when the workweek was 17 * 6 = 102 hours/week, I am going to bet that while the adults were at work most young chilren lacking television or internet would pass the time by ... playing. games.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4605

12/18/13 11:01:15 PM#55
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Robokapp
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by kabitoshin
Because video games were first invented for kids, and now it's for all ages.

BTW this is incorrect.

Pong was the first video game, it was first placed in bars. Space invaders, Asteriods and Pac-Man were all played by more adults than kids. It wasn't until Frogger came out that they started to target a younger audience and that was AFTER trying to target women with Ms Pac-man.

he exprssed himself poorly but what he probably meant is this:

 

Games were first invented for kids. As they entered the 'video' medium, their reputation stayed as before.

 

 

The Olympic games are around 5000 years old. It's probably time people got over the whole games are just for kids.

can you put this in a more coherent, less sarcastic tone? Because it's not clear what you're saying...are you implying the Olympic games came before the game of Pretending, which is more or less the ancestor of role-playing and of MMORPGs therefore?

 

gladiator fights werent for children either, yet children play gladiator games and probably pretended to be gladiators in their play eve before there was such a thing as a gladiator.

 

exactly how do the Olympic games fit in the discussion?

That's how you're going to try and weasel out of what you said ? people don't take gamers serious because...pretending was the first game and that was for kids ?

How does it fit ? games have been made for adults for thousands of years. It was a stupid point to try and make.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

12/19/13 12:53:23 AM#56

Well games are, for the most part, a waste of time. A bit like watching television, but more active, of course. Gaming in itself isn't supposed to be useful in anyway, but of course it can be (for learning english, hand-eye coordination, puzzle solving, etc.), just like television (watching documentaries).

Many hobbies are just that - a waste of time. Gaming is just such a new hobby and only recently gained the popularity of the masses. Give it a few more years and it will be considered just as another hobby of wasting time and might even be looked down less than watching TV.

No one is ever going to give you respect for wasting your time, though.

 

  fantasyfreak112

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/13
Posts: 523

12/19/13 1:04:13 AM#57

I would say because video games aren't real. They don't produce any real life results so they aren't taken seriously. Showing someone your KD/R in Halo in real life is pretty much like showing them nothing at all. However, show the same person your wall of sports trophy's and it's much more impressive because it's real and it matters to some degree.

Many would even argue that video games aren't a hobby at all because you really have nothing to show for whatever you do in games. Even a pro gamer is instantly obsolete the moment the next best thing comes out.

  Aeolyn

Novice Member

Joined: 11/23/08
Posts: 136

12/19/13 2:20:51 AM#58
Originally posted by Boo8er
I would like to know: How come people don't seem to respect playing video games like they would with other hobbies? Activities like: reading, playing sports, making music, or other hobbies are all very respected. Yet, people seem to complain that playing video games is just a waste of the users time and money when he could be doing more beneficial activities. Why is that?

Personally, I would say that the problem stems from society not having mentally elevated gaming to the status of hobby from the slightly lower level of mere entertainment.  Playing video games is mostly simple entertainment, much like watching football or a movie.  Whereas immersing oneself in that game and collecting all the paraphernalia associated with it is definitely a hobby, much like a sports fan, Coca-Cola collector, antique hound, book/stamp collector etc.

(ie. "I love to get presents that have to do with World of Warcraft, I have all kinds of stuff. posters, mugs, hats, totebags, t shirts and lots more." "An avid sports fan may cover her walls with football or basketball paraphernalia." )

Both essentially fulfill the same objective, relaxation and enjoyment, unless you're one of those type A personalities that will only play something that "challenges" you until you become one of those raging voices on teamspeak... lol.
  kingtofu

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/09/05
Posts: 76

12/19/13 4:24:01 AM#59

I'm 44yrs old and have been playing tv/console/handheld/computer and still do since i was 5 yrs old.

Its my main hobby but i have many others as well but I game at night after work until about midnight , which is a lot easier since I'm recently single.

I was with a female gamer for the last 7 yrs and it was great as we gamed together most night.

Most women I know who don't understand the gaming hobby or mindset, don't like games because once most males are into a game we effectively tune-out everything else in the house, including them trying to talk to us (they like waiting till we are in the middle of a raid or heated death match)

I have read about some couples divorcing because either one or other has become emotionally unavailable from the family or partner.

Any hobby is fine in moderation.

  sacredfool

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/04/07
Posts: 705

12/19/13 4:41:00 AM#60

I am a computer science student and none of my friends make fun of gaming. 

 

Except for the fact I play browser based "strategy" games. 


Originally posted by nethaniah

Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


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