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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What makes PvP "meaningful"?

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52 posts found
  azzamasin

Elite Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2771

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

12/14/13 4:15:32 AM#21
Originally posted by PWN_FACE

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

For me?  Nothing, I think it detracts from what a true MMO and more importantly what a true RPG is about.  Exploration and progression.

 

I would literally give my left arm for a great, deep, and progressive PvE ONLY MMO.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  User Deleted
 
OP  12/14/13 4:20:52 AM#22
Originally posted by DamonVile

Faction can be fun but it involves the whole server. Much larger scale and tends to be much less "personal " I thin kit's hard to motivate a whole faction in todays games. People just seem to take the position of " someone else will do that " 

This is a good point. What if people could only reap the rewards if they in some way contributed to the war effort, whether that be access to resources, stat boosts (I don't really like this type of reward), or whatever?

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1294

12/14/13 4:22:33 AM#23
Originally posted by azzamasin
 what a true RPG is about.  Exploration and progression.

 

 

Which RPG have you played that didn't involve a large amount of killing some kind of creature? Particularly which computer RPG?

 

Not saying there's anything wrong with disliking PvP but there's nothing "anti-RPG" about it.

 

 

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2794

There... are... four... lights!

12/14/13 4:36:08 AM#24

It's the difference between killing each other just because you can, without any reason, except possibly being an asshole and ruining someone else's day, and killing each other to achieve an objective.

FFA PvP games usually end in mindless uninteresting gank fests, which explains why most people aren't interested in those games and that they all fail.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5266

12/14/13 4:40:49 AM#25
Originally posted by Loktofeit

The answer is entirely subjective, but for me it means that it affects the ecosystem, open world territory control or economy in a significant way. Some examples of meaningful PVP combat for me are/were:

  • Shadowbane - city sieges, rune guarding and Paundril Plains (area for farming for gold for cities) battles
  • DAoC - keep battles
  • EVE Online - alliance warfare, factional warfare
  • Asheron's Call - holding your monarchy's city
  • Ultima Online -  controlling dungeons
  • Puzzle Pirates - blockades
  • Grepolis/Ikariam/Lords of Ultima/etc(PBBGs) - map conquest

Spot on. What we mostly get currently is rewards which make you better at PvP (not too bad), cosmetics, badges and titles. PvP has been turned into a sort of contested daily.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

12/14/13 4:53:42 AM#26

Meaningful PVP has peace.

Meaningless PVP doesn't.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Quazal.A

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 420

12/14/13 5:19:57 AM#27

To be honest the only game ive 'fully' PvPd in was Eve

But reason why that game are succesful at being a full pvp game are below

 

  1. Dying has a consequence, from the simple loss of ship, but if your not careful you can lose your entire wealth, your implants, your pod, losing your pod without updating clone can mean loss of SP - (i mysyelf lost over 25days of training becuase i was a numpty) 
  2. It has an effect somewhere else, CCP pride themselves on the term ripple effect, If your in faction and/or alliance warfare you diretly effecting the maps for everyone else in game. Something small can be something big 
  3. Everyone in game knows its pvp, but EvE (of the games ive played) have over time managed to get the balance right between the safer and non safe areas, yes everytime you undock your liable to be killed, but the whole Concord thing is a bi-product of your killing in highsec, never mind this whole 'criminal' thing.
  4. Its not about the SP (xp) its about skill, and as much as the players who never got into think otherwise the skill factor will be the biggest deciding factor in a fight
  5. Its not about gear, I can link countless kills where a small frigate sized ship has taken down a large Battleship sized ship, through careful choosing target and doing it the hard/slow way
Too many games make PvP very gear specific as in, if you pvp you get points/rewards which make you better at pvp etc, instead of focussing on making all gear equal in pvp, forget having different resist for pve/pvp just make it same and the gear treadmill becomes different.

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5577

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

12/14/13 5:32:54 AM#28
What sort of PvP a player finds meaningful is entirely subjective. Some people like to siege virtual castles, some people want to compete in ladder rankings.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  lindhsky

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 110

12/14/13 5:50:33 AM#29

In DAOC they had stuff like:

- If you had more keeps than the enemies you got access to a huge dungeon called DARKNESS FALL. In there you could farm seals which was good for the economy and crafting.

. They had Relics. And if your faction took the relics you had bonus to stats (don't remember exactly what). But it made it easier for the people that leveled up so when you got that message that your faction took a relic all got happy no matter what level. In todays games I am not sure we would get the same effect since gamedevelopers make everything so easy already so 10% more in damage doesn't matter. Back then it did.

 

Stuff like that makes PvP matter. But for them to be of any matter at all they first need a good economy system in the game and perhaps a good crafting system. For an example, getting high crafting in DAOC was not easy and just a few had the money and the patience. So the rest of us needed money to be able to hire them when we needed our armor and our spellcrafting.

So when I helped taking a keep that gave us darkness falls I...

- Knew I could get more money.

- For the money I could get armor that someone else made.

- For the money I could let someone spellcraft the newly made armor I just bought.

This took time but it made me a better hero. The armor then lost durability. Very slowly of course. But you would need a crafter in the future as well and you knew that.

 

In todays games you get everything for free. It is so easy to get max crafting that all are doing it. And since all have it and you can get gear in the dungeons anyway you don't have to hire the crafters. And since we can keep our gear forever we dont need the crafters more than once if ever.

A good PVP system should give bonuses to the side that is winning right now. Perhaps giving them more money, more resources, bonuses. In my opinion.

My Own Browsergame:

http://www.heroesoftheclan.com/

  JoeyMMO

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/09/11
Posts: 1332

To busy playing GW2 to post much around here... *shrug*

12/14/13 6:23:39 AM#30

Meaningful PvP is usually considered to be PvP where you have something to win or lose other than "bragging rights".

In the open world it's easy to consider PvP to nearly always be meaningful. You could gather a resource, steal a drop, kill a mob that doesn't spawn much but drops rare loot because you killed the player that beat you to the spot, stuff like that. Or worse you can make players lose XP or have them drop one of their items, from inventory or worn or both. That kind of stuff will make kills meaningful in PvP.

If there is nothing to really win or lose, then it's just entertainment.

If you enter a 1 on 1 arena and the winner gets all of the losers gear that could have taken him several weeks to acquire, that's pretty meaningful. If losing several levels of experience or even permadeath is involved, well, that's about as meaningful as it can get.

Mind you, lots of people that claim they are looking for meaningful PvP, are not really looking for the really meaningful PvP, just a bit of meaning is enough for most. When there is nothing at stake to win or lose it's considered meaningless by many, just something to pass the time.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2794

There... are... four... lights!

12/14/13 6:29:34 AM#31
Originally posted by Quazal.A

To be honest the only game ive 'fully' PvPd in was Eve

But reason why that game are succesful at being a full pvp game are below

 

  1. Dying has a consequence, from the simple loss of ship, but if your not careful you can lose your entire wealth, your implants, your pod, losing your pod without updating clone can mean loss of SP - (i mysyelf lost over 25days of training becuase i was a numpty) 
  2. It has an effect somewhere else, CCP pride themselves on the term ripple effect, If your in faction and/or alliance warfare you diretly effecting the maps for everyone else in game. Something small can be something big 
  3. Everyone in game knows its pvp, but EvE (of the games ive played) have over time managed to get the balance right between the safer and non safe areas, yes everytime you undock your liable to be killed, but the whole Concord thing is a bi-product of your killing in highsec, never mind this whole 'criminal' thing.
  4. Its not about the SP (xp) its about skill, and as much as the players who never got into think otherwise the skill factor will be the biggest deciding factor in a fight
  5. Its not about gear, I can link countless kills where a small frigate sized ship has taken down a large Battleship sized ship, through careful choosing target and doing it the hard/slow way
Too many games make PvP very gear specific as in, if you pvp you get points/rewards which make you better at pvp etc, instead of focussing on making all gear equal in pvp, forget having different resist for pve/pvp just make it same and the gear treadmill becomes different.

The main reason why EvE works while other games like Darkfall fail is because of highsec. CCP themself official said that most players spend their time in highsec.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Got a refund: Archeage.

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  jeddak

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 262

This too shall pass...

12/14/13 6:42:35 AM#32

I started pvp with Ulitima Online in I think 1996 and while I loved the game I absolutely hated the player killing feature. I must not of been alone as a safe world was added where you couldn't be attacked and I promptly lost interest in the game. Now I realize it was the danger factor that made the game seem real and exciting and I have some fond memories of some epic times that I could go on and on about but that UO is gone forever and I don't expect it to be seen again in this "mmo's must be simple, unchallenging and most of all safe".

You just can't have anyone interrupting your single player fun and have the game appeal to the masses. And that's what it takes, mass appeal. I've taken part in many different kinds of pvp since then and with the exception of lotro it's been the pointless I'll kill you then you kill me type and some of it has been fun up to a point but not memorable.

So for me pvp has to be ingrained in the fabric of a mmo that entices all types of players. Crafters, adventurers, explorers and those pesky interlopers, player killers to game together along with areas where players congregate to perform their functions and watch the spectacle of human interaction. That's what I feel is needed.

UO,EQ (best mmo's). Been in lotro for almost 7 years mostly in pvp as a lovable spider: Mummy

  User Deleted
 
OP  12/14/13 7:41:49 AM#33
Originally posted by jeddak

...I've taken part in many different kinds of pvp since then and with the exception of lotro it's been the pointless I'll kill you then you kill me type and some of it has been fun up to a point but not memorable.

 

I've  never really heard that LoTRO was much of a pvp game. I'm not sure I understood what you meant in that  sentence. Could you say more about what you meant?

 

I agree with that list about pvp being "ingrained into the fabric" of an mmo, at least as a starting point. Sadly, I never got to play UO during the time you are talking about.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

12/14/13 8:15:04 AM#34
Originally posted by Quirhid
What sort of PvP a player finds meaningful is entirely subjective. Some people like to siege virtual castles, some people want to compete in ladder rankings.

I don't think it's totally subjective.

Meaningful pvp usually rewards the team or side.

Meaningless pvp usually rewards the individual.

One may like a type of pvp more or less, but I think most people would say EVE has more meaningful PVP than COD, though the entertainment levels can be subjective.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Quazal.A

Novice Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 420

12/14/13 8:27:34 AM#35
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Quazal.A

To be honest the only game ive 'fully' PvPd in was Eve

But reason why that game are succesful at being a full pvp game are below

 

  1. Dying has a consequence, from the simple loss of ship, but if your not careful you can lose your entire wealth, your implants, your pod, losing your pod without updating clone can mean loss of SP - (i mysyelf lost over 25days of training becuase i was a numpty) 
  2. It has an effect somewhere else, CCP pride themselves on the term ripple effect, If your in faction and/or alliance warfare you diretly effecting the maps for everyone else in game. Something small can be something big 
  3. Everyone in game knows its pvp, but EvE (of the games ive played) have over time managed to get the balance right between the safer and non safe areas, yes everytime you undock your liable to be killed, but the whole Concord thing is a bi-product of your killing in highsec, never mind this whole 'criminal' thing.
  4. Its not about the SP (xp) its about skill, and as much as the players who never got into think otherwise the skill factor will be the biggest deciding factor in a fight
  5. Its not about gear, I can link countless kills where a small frigate sized ship has taken down a large Battleship sized ship, through careful choosing target and doing it the hard/slow way
Too many games make PvP very gear specific as in, if you pvp you get points/rewards which make you better at pvp etc, instead of focussing on making all gear equal in pvp, forget having different resist for pve/pvp just make it same and the gear treadmill becomes different.

The main reason why EvE works while other games like Darkfall fail is because of highsec. CCP themself official said that most players spend their time in highsec.

Aye point 3 of mine :) the balance between pve and pvp is key in EvE but even the players (exc the least knowlegable of the game) know that even highsec isn't safe :)

One of the biggest things i used to teach people in the n00b channel was Highsec is NOT safe sec :) learn that distinction and your goign to do ok lol :)

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  Shadanwolf

Novice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1875

12/14/13 8:28:55 AM#36
Originally posted by PWN_FACE

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

OP

Persistent world....24/7....3 factions

currently DAOC is the undisputed gold standard of faction warfare imo

Elder Scrolls Online has a chance to be the next king of persistent world faction warfare.

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2945

12/14/13 8:49:58 AM#37

"Meaningfull PVP" in an MMO to me is what happens at a strategic level, such as persistant city, keep or territory control. If you can drive your opponents out of an area of the game world and then hold that area indefinitely by defending it. The kind of game play that takes place in EVE-Online's lawless space.

 

What happens during actual combat is tactical, so I'm not too fussed about whether it's FFA-PVP or not, as long as there is some mechanism that stops your enemy from simply respawning endlessly. In EVE, you lose combat assets which can't be instantly replaced indefinitely. In WWII-Online you had battalions with limited equipment and troop numbers, once they were all killed the battalion was defeated and the objective lost.

  LeGrosGamer

Novice Member

Joined: 7/06/13
Posts: 214

12/14/13 8:56:36 AM#38
Originally posted by PWN_FACE

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

The best PvP I'ver ever played on a MMO are on NexusTK  and EVE-Online.  Granted EVE-Online is high risk, BUT getting the isk (currency) back to buy / build back what you lost takes no time at all. 

  NexusTK is all about PvP community plus team work and perfect timing.

Oh and I forgot to mention Shattered Galaxy, SG was the best PvP by far! :D

  IsilithTehroth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 142

12/14/13 2:53:48 PM#39
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by Quirhid
What sort of PvP a player finds meaningful is entirely subjective. Some people like to siege virtual castles, some people want to compete in ladder rankings.

I don't think it's totally subjective.

Meaningful pvp usually rewards the team or side.

Meaningless pvp usually rewards the individual.

One may like a type of pvp more or less, but I think most people would say EVE has more meaningful PVP than COD, though the entertainment levels can be subjective.

Pvp for the sake of pvp is not meaingful. If your reward is tokens to get gear that allowed you to pvp better and for bragging rights then its not meaningful; just meaningful on a personal level to those whom like to have the most kills, least deaths, ect.

Meaningful is if it has a direct impact on the player, their character and the game world. Then again I could be bias because I like the Darkfall, full loot, territory control system.

MurderHerd

  Vidir

Novice Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 966

12/14/13 2:59:19 PM#40
Nothing.
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