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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What makes PvP "meaningful"?

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52 posts found
  User Deleted
 
OP  12/13/13 10:48:43 PM#1

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15693

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

12/13/13 10:56:00 PM#2
Typically all they mean by that is something to gain or lose in PVP.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

12/13/13 11:02:24 PM#3

I saw a thread on the front page asking about it and wondered the same thing :)

I'm a pve player that tends to avoid pvp in mmos. I like more world of tanks style but if I was going to pvp in a mmo the features I like are

Large scale world pvp. I like pvp to be more about a team effort than 1 on 1. 

Not about loot or gear or earning points to buy gear. Any time I've ever done battle ground pvp it's like being in a zombie herd. Run up road into a mass slaughter hope to get one or two aoe attacks off and then die to the enemy zerg...respawn ...repeat. They're more about points per hour or grinding to the next gear level than actually kill or taking an objective.

So if it's not about any of those it has to give some other benefit. Like the area giving some type of advantage or resource etc that a faction can use. The more pve elements that surround pvp the more interested I am in it when it comes to mmos. Things like crafting, resource control, access to dungeons. Those are things I think are worth fighting for control over.

It would probably be easier to explain what meaningless pvp is and work backwards from there :)

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1358

12/13/13 11:09:15 PM#4
Originally posted by PWN_FACE

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

Pretty simple. If losing a PVP battle means you actually lose territory or resources or something else tangible in the game it's meaningful. If there's no penalty for losing (or something completely insignificant) and the only motivation for doing it is bragging rights   than it isn't.

 

I'm only interested in meaningful PVP  in MMOs.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/13/13 11:11:05 PM#5

The answer is entirely subjective, but for me it means that it affects the ecosystem, open world territory control or economy in a significant way. Some examples of meaningful PVP combat for me are/were:

  • Shadowbane - city sieges, rune guarding and Paundril Plains (area for farming for gold for cities) battles
  • DAoC - keep battles
  • EVE Online - alliance warfare, factional warfare
  • Asheron's Call - holding your monarchy's city
  • Ultima Online -  controlling dungeons
  • Puzzle Pirates - blockades
  • Grepolis/Ikariam/Lords of Ultima/etc(PBBGs) - map conquest

 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  IsilithTehroth

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 145

12/13/13 11:21:39 PM#6

Simple risk verse reward. For this you need full loot or partial loot drop systems on death and/or territory control where you can build, destroy and conquer buildings and land as well as mob spawns are rare resource areas.

That is why modern mmorpgs die; they have nothing like this to retain the players.

MurderHerd

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

12/13/13 11:25:06 PM#7
Since "meaning" is relative to each individual, I don't think a consensus is likely, but generally it tends to mean PvP with risk vs. reward dynamics that make the consequences and results of conflict matter in regard to the game world itself.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1441

12/13/13 11:26:10 PM#8
Originally posted by Loktofeit

The answer is entirely subjective, but for me it means that it affects the ecosystem, open world territory control or economy in a significant way. Some examples of meaningful PVP combat for me are/were:

  • Shadowbane - city sieges, rune guarding and Paundril Plains (area for farming for gold for cities) battles
  • DAoC - keep battles
  • EVE Online - alliance warfare, factional warfare
  • Asheron's Call - holding your monarchy's city
  • Ultima Online -  controlling dungeons
  • Puzzle Pirates - blockades
  • Grepolis/Ikariam/Lords of Ultima/etc(PBBGs) - map conquest

 

 

 

This.  I'm currently playing DFUW and I don't love PvP.  The way to get a PvE player to PvP is to put his hunting grounds on the line through the potential loss of his clan city.  I don't like PvP enough to just PvP with nothing on the line (instanced battlegrounds and really all themepark PvP).

I go out and farm certain components to rebuild the clan city.  It can even give PvE further meaning than gear tiers.

  tristanryan

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/24/11
Posts: 242

12/13/13 11:28:44 PM#9

- Item Decay (this keeps the economic and crafting side of the game running)

- Player Looting (this can go overboard, quickly, but can absolutely be balanced and fun, as well as economic benefits)

- Item Loss (not just player looting)

- XP Loss

- Proper scoring / scoreboards (where healers and support also are accounted for)

- Achievements

- Rewards

- Hero and Criminal System is an important priority for open world

 

These are just a few examples, and some will not work in a battleground scenario but will in open world, and the other way around. PvP needs to give you something to fight for, or at least make you not want to die. Some games have some of these options, but are so poor in other areas it doesn't even matter.

The most important factor is class balance. Without balance PvP and/or meaningful PvP isn't fun, ever. Games of today play the class balancing roller coaster act on purpose. Its usually heavily weighed to the most popular classes to keep subscriptions up.

  Guler

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/14/05
Posts: 148

12/13/13 11:34:33 PM#10

I think meaningful for me is different then for most 'hardcore' Pvpers.

 

For me I find meaning in it being a test of skill and being able to prove my skill was better then my opponents. Be that skill with coordinating and supporting team mates, or skill in playing the game and getting the timing right. For me games like league of legends, or the world of warcraft battlegrounds are the most meaningful since teams always start with even numbers and supplies, and you win or lose based on skill and decisions you make in the heat of battle.

 

On the flip side of things game like ultima online and eve online I didn't find the pvp all that meaningful. The outcome of the battles were decided long before the battles started, usually by whoever has the largest numbers, and thus they didn't satisfy my need for skill. I won't argue that skill doesn't play a part in some of the battles for these games, but most of the PvP in these games is decided by preperation, and thus for me isn't as meaningful of an experince, impactful yes, but meaningful, no.

 

I guess it comes down to what you are looking for. Are you looking to prove your worth as a combatant, if so then League of Legends or WoW's battlegrounds/arenas are a great fit. On the other hand if you are looking to prove your worth as a tactician then Eve and Ultima Online would probably be the better fit, even though they didn't do anything for me personally.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12401

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

12/14/13 12:30:12 AM#11
Originally posted by Guler

I think meaningful for me is different then for most 'hardcore' Pvpers.

For me I find meaning in it being a test of skill and being able to prove my skill was better then my opponents. Be that skill with coordinating and supporting team mates, or skill in playing the game and getting the timing right. For me games like league of legends, or the world of warcraft battlegrounds are the most meaningful since teams always start with even numbers and supplies, and you win or lose based on skill and decisions you make in the heat of battle.

On the flip side of things game like ultima online and eve online I didn't find the pvp all that meaningful. The outcome of the battles were decided long before the battles started, usually by whoever has the largest numbers, and thus they didn't satisfy my need for skill. I won't argue that skill doesn't play a part in some of the battles for these games, but most of the PvP in these games is decided by preperation, and thus for me isn't as meaningful of an experince, impactful yes, but meaningful, no.

I guess it comes down to what you are looking for. Are you looking to prove your worth as a combatant, if so then League of Legends or WoW's battlegrounds/arenas are a great fit. On the other hand if you are looking to prove your worth as a tactician then Eve and Ultima Online would probably be the better fit, even though they didn't do anything for me personally.

I'm glad you posted that. I was hoping that WOW's battlegrounds would come up, as it's a great example of how 'meaningful' can vary from person to person.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Knytta

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/03/07
Posts: 330

12/14/13 12:42:42 AM#12
Originally posted by iridescence

Pretty simple. If losing a PVP battle means you actually lose territory or resources or something else tangible in the game it's meaningful. If there's no penalty for losing (or something completely insignificant) and the only motivation for doing it is bragging rights   than it isn't.

 

yes good idea but as seen in  so many games "when we loose this much i will change my alignment for the winning side" Not many people will play the underdog just for the fun of it (and lets face it is not that much fun about it).

 

 

 

Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

He who can describe the flame does not burn.

Petrarca

  Banquetto

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/06/09
Posts: 1033

12/14/13 12:42:45 AM#13
"Meaningful" is generally code for PvP which allows you to make an unwilling opponent genuinely unhappy due to them genuinely losing something.
  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

12/14/13 12:52:18 AM#14
Originally posted by Banquetto
"Meaningful" is generally code for PvP which allows you to make an unwilling opponent genuinely unhappy due to them genuinely losing something.

I don't agree with that at all. In battleground or territory battles or even full loot games, if someone is an unwilling opponent they're playing the wrong game....or at least in the case of a battleground they don't belong in that part of it.

I don't think meaningful has to mean griefer.

  YoungCaesar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/08/13
Posts: 231

12/14/13 1:36:16 AM#15
I think, in the context of a sandbox, its where you fight for territory control or resources, something that has an impact in a persistent onlineworld
  User Deleted
 
OP  12/14/13 1:46:14 AM#16

I don't know if we will see a "consensus" emerge, but I think we can see some frequent items pop up, whether people agree with them or not. 

 

For example, one of the very divisive points seems to be full-loot and partial-loot. Open-world v instanced pvp is another. 

 

Another thing I wonder about is whether guild-driven pvp is or factional pvp is preferable, or in which circumstances one type is better than the other. I never played DAoC in its heyday, so I'm curious as to how a true three-faction balance works out. Camelot Unchained and ESO may give some insight into that. I am curious (and hopeful) to see how those work out.

 

What do you guys think about guild-based and faction-based pvp?

  bcbully

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7324

12/14/13 2:02:04 AM#17
something lost and something gained.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

12/14/13 3:05:21 AM#18
Originally posted by PWN_FACE

 

What do you guys think about guild-based and faction-based pvp?

The game has to be designed around it. AoC had a great concept for guild warfare, they just didn't have the game that could handle it. If what they had actually worked it would of been pretty epic. What it ended up being was a laggy pos that had so many lame exploits no one really ended up doing it and cities became ghost towns. Eve is another guild based one but I think it's become so large you could almost call it faction now :)

Faction can be fun but it involves the whole server. Much larger scale and tends to be much less "personal " I thin kit's hard to motivate a whole faction in todays games. People just seem to take the position of " someone else will do that " 

I think if you want to sustain pvp over longer periods of time guild vrs guild would give people more incentives to keep fighting.  To protect what the guild owns. And what it owns makes the players feel like they own it...or at least more so than a whole faction.

  Ramanadjinn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1312

12/14/13 3:34:43 AM#19

I'm sorry if someone pointed this out and i missed it.  Lots of good points so far.

But in some games, like Eve Online or Mortal Online, it can drive the economy(if that is the right word). Regardless, I will clarify.

Loss and destruction of items creates demand for new player crafted items which creates a demand for crafters which creates a constant demand for gatherers which creates a constant demand for control of good resource points.

To me, that sort of PvP that is well integrated into a game in this manner is one way I consider it "meaningful."  It doesn't exist just to exist, it exists for a vital reason.

 

  PsyMike3d

Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/11
Posts: 395

Sorry for my English xD

12/14/13 3:42:04 AM#20
Originally posted by PWN_FACE

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

For me, the PvP is meaningful, when the element of fear and constant awareness exists!

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