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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » SE should learn from fans how to make proper battle system

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85 posts found
  Sephiroso

Elite Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

12/10/13 3:04:07 PM#41
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by Sephiroso
There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.

Hilarious because its completely true.

What kind of backwards thinking is this?

The mount is not "a class". The mount has access to three "classes", with each being stripped down versions of the playable classes. The fact players have two choices for "healer" and "defender" as well as four choices for "attacker" completely annihilates any customization you can give to your horsebird.

In other words; haters be hating, business as usual.

How is it backwards thinking? You can actually choose if your chocobo is a tank, healer, or dps or mix.

 

For the classes, there's no choice. You can't pick and choose(and be effective). Try to be an archer and telling the group "Hey guys, i actually picked up some heal and defensive cooldowns instead of dps abilities and cooldowns from other classes, so i'm gonna heal okay?" and see how fast you get kicked out lol.

 

So like the guy said, our chocobo's have more customization than our classes do. The only thing we can do for the classes is add 30 stats, which for 99% of players we put them in the same places, so that really doesn't even count for customization honestly. Lol and choosing 5 skills...again everyone makes the same choices so hardly count as customization.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  Nurvus

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/12
Posts: 18

12/10/13 4:24:38 PM#42
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by ZizouX

Why was this thread necroed?  It was from August of this year.. four months ago.

 

The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics.   Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g   ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).  

 

Avoiding a bunch of AOE that repeats the same pattern over and over sure is exciting. 

Pretty much sums up the battle system.

There's no room for player skill.

You have a set pattern of encounter mechanics, a set pattern of class mechanics, and you are just as good as your gear and ability to memorize things.

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

While I was somewhat negative in my last post to FFXIV, I'd have to say that it's apparent that a lot of the negative assertions here are from people who haven't played the game for any length of time -- or at least played it wrong (in some cases, it seems like one just read tool tips and made assertions thereof).

I would certainly say that to players who claim FFXIV's battle system is better than WoW's, because it's not. They are exactly the same, but FFXIV's version allows less player skill in your results.

Watch any PvP or PvE videos of any class/spec of WoW.

Watch how a considerable gap in player skill can allow 1v2 and 1v3 situations, and allow you to beat players of significantly higher level/gear.

None of that is possible in FFXIV. With the skills and mechanics at your disposal, there's no difference between good, great and amazing players.

Just good, great and amazing gear.

 

I say this, because I actually played all classes, tried crafting, even fishing and arcanist which were made available a couple weeks before launch.

I also researched the Skills available to Jobs, since everyone was saying "wait until Live, end game is what matters", only to find it doesn't add any meaningful depth. Just fills your Keybinds.

 

Nothing changed since the Beta. Everything "mechanical", from combat to crafting, is still a WoW-clone.

Yes, even crafting - the gathering/crafting minigames are a trick:

Individually, they are fun, but when you take all the items you will have to craft all the way to your final item, it suddenly goes from fun to chore.

Add lack of depth and uselessness to the mix - since anything worth its salt comes from Dungeons and Raids - and you've got yourself a filler system: something designed to make the game seem bigger, without actually adding anything.

 

It's the same with Fates.

Fates are the same as Dynamic Events in Warhammer Online and Guild Wars 2.

It's  repeatable content - a lot more economical from a developer point of view.

You know where you've seen that before? Dailies. Except it's not daily - it's 15minute'ly.

Its only notable difference (and quality) is it doesn't require you to form a party to complete it as a group.

---

 

My final conclusion is this:

SquareEnix failed at launching a game with the standards they got us used to over years of awesome titles.

I'm glad there are so many diehard Final Fantasy fans that are willing to suffer through anything to support SquareEnix.

I'm sad those very same fans are holding SquareEnix back because instead of trying to help SE avoid making mistakes, these fans embrace every mistake SE makes.

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 782

12/10/13 6:30:09 PM#43
Originally posted by Nurvus
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by ZizouX

Why was this thread necroed?  It was from August of this year.. four months ago.

 

The combat in the game is intertwined with the boss mechanics.   Here's a video of Titan Hard Mode..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkrBtg_9N5g   ......sure looks boring..... (/sarcasm).  

 

Avoiding a bunch of AOE that repeats the same pattern over and over sure is exciting. 

Pretty much sums up the battle system.

There's no room for player skill.

You have a set pattern of encounter mechanics, a set pattern of class mechanics, and you are just as good as your gear and ability to memorize things.

Originally posted by Yaevindusk

 

While I was somewhat negative in my last post to FFXIV, I'd have to say that it's apparent that a lot of the negative assertions here are from people who haven't played the game for any length of time -- or at least played it wrong (in some cases, it seems like one just read tool tips and made assertions thereof).

I would certainly say that to players who claim FFXIV's battle system is better than WoW's, because it's not. They are exactly the same, but FFXIV's version allows less player skill in your results.

Watch any PvP or PvE videos of any class/spec of WoW.

Watch how a considerable gap in player skill can allow 1v2 and 1v3 situations, and allow you to beat players of significantly higher level/gear.

None of that is possible in FFXIV. With the skills and mechanics at your disposal, there's no difference between good, great and amazing players.

Just good, great and amazing gear.

 

I say this, because I actually played all classes, tried crafting, even fishing and arcanist which were made available a couple weeks before launch.

I also researched the Skills available to Jobs, since everyone was saying "wait until Live, end game is what matters", only to find it doesn't add any meaningful depth. Just fills your Keybinds.

 

Nothing changed since the Beta. Everything "mechanical", from combat to crafting, is still a WoW-clone.

Yes, even crafting - the gathering/crafting minigames are a trick:

Individually, they are fun, but when you take all the items you will have to craft all the way to your final item, it suddenly goes from fun to chore.

Add lack of depth and uselessness to the mix - since anything worth its salt comes from Dungeons and Raids - and you've got yourself a filler system: something designed to make the game seem bigger, without actually adding anything.

 

It's the same with Fates.

Fates are the same as Dynamic Events in Warhammer Online and Guild Wars 2.

It's  repeatable content - a lot more economical from a developer point of view.

You know where you've seen that before? Dailies. Except it's not daily - it's 15minute'ly.

Its only notable difference (and quality) is it doesn't require you to form a party to complete it as a group.

---

 

My final conclusion is this:

SquareEnix failed at launching a game with the standards they got us used to over years of awesome titles.

I'm glad there are so many diehard Final Fantasy fans that are willing to suffer through anything to support SquareEnix.

I'm sad those very same fans are holding SquareEnix back because instead of trying to help SE avoid making mistakes, these fans embrace every mistake SE makes.

Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.

  Xiaoki

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/07/04
Posts: 2369

12/10/13 6:47:57 PM#44


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.

Reading comprehension fail.


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

  simsalabim77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 525

12/10/13 8:36:13 PM#45
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by Hyanmen
Originally posted by Sephiroso
There's not very much depth to combat, and there is literally more customization for our mounts than there is for the playable classes in the game.

Hilarious because its completely true.

What kind of backwards thinking is this?

The mount is not "a class". The mount has access to three "classes", with each being stripped down versions of the playable classes. The fact players have two choices for "healer" and "defender" as well as four choices for "attacker" completely annihilates any customization you can give to your horsebird.

In other words; haters be hating, business as usual.

How is it backwards thinking? You can actually choose if your chocobo is a tank, healer, or dps or mix.

 

For the classes, there's no choice. You can't pick and choose(and be effective). Try to be an archer and telling the group "Hey guys, i actually picked up some heal and defensive cooldowns instead of dps abilities and cooldowns from other classes, so i'm gonna heal okay?" and see how fast you get kicked out lol.

 

So like the guy said, our chocobo's have more customization than our classes do. The only thing we can do for the classes is add 30 stats, which for 99% of players we put them in the same places, so that really doesn't even count for customization honestly. Lol and choosing 5 skills...again everyone makes the same choices so hardly count as customization.

 

Don't forget that they also have a vanity system lol. 

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 782

12/10/13 8:45:18 PM#46
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

  simsalabim77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 525

12/10/13 8:49:56 PM#47
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

 

BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

  Whaaazzuuuup

Novice Member

Joined: 12/05/13
Posts: 10

12/10/13 9:11:39 PM#48

I read part of the report I guess you could call it by markarious, and I was impressed by the ideas, and evaluations personally.  It was the first time I'd read anything where someone had broke down many of the mechanics employed by my first and only MMORPG, WOW.  I bought this game, because I heard it was amazing.  I was unimpressed though.  I really like the idea of one character being capable of mastering all classes because I'm an altoholic, but beyond thatI didn't find much of anything unique or inspiring.  The combat in the game was the main reason I stopped playing.  The 2.5 sec GCD, the animation lock, and the way some of the skills worked, it made me feel as if I'd gone from driving a porsche to being put in a dump truck.  That's probably more than a little bit of an exaggeration, but it's the first feeling I got when thinking of how to describe it.  The one thing I harp on is the tanking, I played the marauder a bit, got it to warrior, and trying to tank at least early content, as compared to early tanking in WOW, was frankly a joke.  Having no passive ability to help with threat generation until I got my main class, and having to level another class for solid aoe threat gen, and a taunt that sits on a 2 min CD, was absolutely ridiculous.  I know that every Job has two classes attached to it, that are meant to be leveled, but those shared abilities had me scratching my head, I mean that was the best they could do?  I'm sorry but I expect better.

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 782

12/10/13 9:51:10 PM#49
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

 

BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

  simsalabim77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 525

12/10/13 11:02:48 PM#50
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

 

BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

 

BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.

Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.

This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy. 

 

  ZizouX

Elite Member

Joined: 5/17/11
Posts: 600

12/11/13 1:07:01 AM#51
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

 

BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

 

BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.

Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.

This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy. 

 

This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

 

If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

 

Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

 

AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

 

We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

  simsalabim77

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/13
Posts: 525

12/11/13 1:24:40 AM#52
Originally posted by ZizouX
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

 

BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

 

BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.

Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.

This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy. 

 

This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

 

If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

 

Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

 

AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

 

We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

 

Maybe that's because we were meant to do BC with a mix of Mythology and CT gear instead of the Philo and Mythology that we have access to? Nah, being an entire tier behind what the instance was balanced for during progression couldn't have anything to do with it...

It took BG two months to down Twintania because of the gear deficit and because it wasn't nerfed yet. Pretty much as soon as they did down it, it got nerfed. Had they been doing progression on Twintania with the "re-balanced" Twister, I imagine they would have downed it much sooner.

  Sephiroso

Elite Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

12/11/13 4:01:53 AM#53
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

Hey, guess what ilvl gear we were supposed to be entering coil with. Full ilvl80. Guess what ilvl gear you have people trying to do coil with, 60-70(with a couple pieces even less than that).

 

So wanna try that sentence again? Coil isn't hard, more people haven't killed Twintania not because its hard, its because they're either bad or undergeared. And at this point, its mostly just undergeared.

 

Originally posted by ZizouX

This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

 

If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

 

Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

 

AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

 

We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

So you're going to just sit there and ignore that SE came out and acknowledged that Twintania was bugged and took down the fight completely TWICE to fix the bugs. And you still sit there and ask why it took the first kill 2 months? IT WAS BUGGED. I typed the answer in all caps incase you didn't see me answer that question before.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  MagikrorriM

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/14/10
Posts: 149

12/11/13 5:12:29 AM#54

There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.

Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game. 

  Sephiroso

Elite Member

Joined: 8/01/05
Posts: 1056

12/11/13 5:29:52 AM#55
Originally posted by MagikrorriM

There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.

Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game. 

Wrong. Games have plenty of content. They just streamline the leveling process so that people basically skip over most of the content in the game in a couple days. And this isn't even talking about the diehard 24/7 people who usually lvl to max first in the world/server/etc.


Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4507

12/11/13 6:15:00 AM#56
Originally posted by Sephiroso
Originally posted by MagikrorriM

There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.

Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game. 

Wrong. Games have plenty of content. They just streamline the leveling process so that people basically skip over most of the content in the game in a couple days. And this isn't even talking about the diehard 24/7 people who usually lvl to max first in the world/server/etc.

Pretty much this ^.

Newer games, on average, actually tend to have far more content than the average game of 10-20 years ago. The biggest difference is that older games had multiple ways of dragging out the same amount of content & making it take longer to consume. Either they made the content much more difficult (forcing you to spend many hours, days, weeks, on the same boss), or they slowed down the pace at which you completed content via lengthy grinds, slow combat, etc.

It's pretty obvious that gamers are now consuming content at a much accelerated rate than in the past. It used to take almost a year for players to hit max lvl. Now players are doing it in a weekend.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4507

12/11/13 6:23:30 AM#57
Originally posted by markarius

I found this post on FF14 beta tester forum. You should read it.

Lengthy document, full of half-realized pointers.
 
You have some decent points in there, but some terrible examples. For one you keep pointed to WoW as an example of a game with combat 'depth'. When in reality WoW is exactly what you are trying to argue against. It's a game with combat complexity, but lacks depth (something it shares with FFXIV). The options you get (if any) are often highly restricted, and shoe-horned into a simplified system. This problem has only been amplified over the years.
 
Furthermore, your examples of how to improve some of the rotations for FFXIV are highly flawed. Adding procs for dmg / AoE do not add depth to combat, and in many ways already exist within FFXIV. Bards & BLMs especially have these in abundance.
 
For more depth, the primary thing u need is choice, you're right about that; however that comes from build customization, and multi-use abilities. Two things FFXIV sorely lacks on the whole. To be honest, you can't add either of those features without fundamentally re-designing the combat for the game. Something no developer would actually do. That is something you would be more likely to see in a game like GW2, or a MOBA, but not in a traditional MMO.
 
- I hate to say it, but people enjoy simplicity. They like the combat in FFXIV, regardless of it's flaws. Many players don't care about build creation, clever planning / strategy, etc. or they even get scared off by the prospect of it. This is one of the reasons why FFXIV will not have good PvP. However, this isn't that type of game. It's a game for people who enjoy the FF universe, and like raiding / PvE mechanic, over well-thought out combat mechanics.
  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

12/11/13 7:29:19 AM#58


Originally posted by aesperus
- I hate to say it, but people enjoy simplicity. They like the combat in FFXIV, regardless of it's flaws. Many players don't care about build creation, clever planning / strategy, etc. or they even get scared off by the prospect of it. This is one of the reasons why FFXIV will not have good PvP. However, this isn't that type of game. It's a game for people who enjoy the FF universe, and like raiding / PvE mechanic, over well-thought out combat mechanics.

PvP has separate abilities that aren't available in PvE. So I think we should wait and see before judging either way.

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  drivendawn

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 782

12/11/13 7:53:49 AM#59
Originally posted by ZizouX
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by simsalabim77
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Xiaoki

 


Originally posted by drivendawn
Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.


Reading comprehension fail.

 


He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


Bad players will always will be bad.

Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

 

BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

 

BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.

Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.

This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy. 

 

This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

 

If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

 

Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

 

AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

 

We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

This ^^ thankyou

  Nurvus

Novice Member

Joined: 11/22/12
Posts: 18

12/11/13 8:53:24 AM#60

FFXIV:ARR's difficulty is deceptful.

Class mechanics are so simple that it wouldn't surprise me if the development team was able to design encounters so tightly tuned that when you do beat them you're left with 1 HP.

There's no room for an exceptional player to stand out.

Your performance is as good as your gear and knowledge of the game mechanics.

 

Those claiming WoW is the easiest MMO in history, I have to say I didn't lol'd, I actually laughed.

Alot of encounters in WoW are undertuned, specially in the last 2 expansions, but throughout the history of WoW, alot of hard modes, and even some normal modes, have been the most interesting and challenging encounters I've seen out of any MMO, specially Ulduar and Ice Crown Citadel.

To me, a gear check isn't challenge.

A 30 minute endurance with average mechanics where the only real difficulty is avoiding making a single mistake is still not challenge. It's yet another gearcheck.

Vanilla WoW had alot of boring, frustrating gearchecks.

But Burning Crusade and Lich King had amazing encounters.

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