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General Discussion  » ESO has taught me a valuable lesson about MMO's

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55 posts found
  Kicksave321

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/26/13
Posts: 309

12/04/13 7:39:08 AM#21
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by sludgebeard

You just can NOT be in an Objective argument about MMO's. 

After ESO beta I had a friend who posted on Facebook telling his other friends that he really enjoyed the game and cant wait to get back into another beta session. Immediately he was bombarded by post from a friend of ours on how ESO is just "GW2 with Tab-Targeting", and how he hated how Non-Sandbox the game was. 

And for some reason it just dawned on me, maybe because it was over social media, or the fact that I already held strong disdain for the responding poster. At that moment I realized that his argument, that was so so similar to the arguments on this very forum, was entirely subjective.

Yet HE is the one that cant hold an objective argument, you don't like him and only his argument was subjective!

I would wager that if ESO wasn't using a popular IP, that friend wouldn't have cared at all about the game.

If you use an IP, expect to hear from fans often and loudly. Especially if its being created in a way not similar to the IP.

Ah but your reply is very subjective .  You state expect to hear from fans often and loudly as if all fans are complaining when in reality it's a very small percentage it may seem often because like on this site it's the same 5-10 posters on every thread spreading misinformation.  

 

Are you implying eso is not following the IP?  If so could you please give some specifics?  Some of these 5-10 posters posting misinformation on sites like this clearly have no clue for example mages can't wear plate that is wrong and was a lie, there will be a cash shop again that was a lie, somehow these same posters know what the entire game is going to be even though we been to 3 areas (starting area an island as two of them ) and level 17 in a beta and they are experts.  In my opinion these so called experts are just part of the entitlement crowd that are pissed it's going to be a sub game, so they want to spread as much misinformation as possible in hopes the game fails and goes f2p,  I know sad but that is what the mmo community is turning into. And don't worry if it does go f2p these same entitlement creeps will cry it's not free enough. 

  HighMarshal

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 241

12/04/13 7:42:38 AM#22
One thing I have found out about MMOs and these forums is that a lot of the people will harp on any MMO coming out claiming it is nothing but a WoW clone even if none of the features even remotely resemble WoW, and then refuse to play said MMO because it has not like WoW.
  MMOredfalcon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/13
Posts: 102

12/04/13 8:00:18 AM#23
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by donpopuki
What bugs me is the cultural assumption within MMO player circles that a game must be perfect in every way in order to be enjoyed at all.

I see nothing wrong with having fun in a game for few months then moving on. I'm sure some will berate me for encouraging developers to create just good enough products but I will counter that having impossible high standards will only make you more miserable.

It's ok to have fun.

I'm with you. People who are expecting to be entertained for years are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

 

 Which in itself a disappointment. Most games now are designed and meant to be enjoyed only for a couple months. Then they are discarded to jump into the 'Next' big MMO. Why have we gone from MMOs like EQ, UO, SWG which were all games people enjoyed for years, to now games that we can expect no more than six months of enjoyment....if we are lucky.

I personally would rather be in the same MMO for the next 5 years, rather than the average of five weeks with todays MMOs.

  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 898

12/04/13 8:02:46 AM#24
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by JJ82

Yet HE is the one that cant hold an objective argument, you don't like him and only his argument was subjective!

I would wager that if ESO wasn't using a popular IP, that friend wouldn't have cared at all about the game.

If you use an IP, expect to hear from fans often and loudly. Especially if its being created in a way not similar to the IP.

Ah but your reply is very subjective .  You state expect to hear from fans often and loudly as if all fans are complaining when in reality it's a very small percentage it may seem often because like on this site it's the same 5-10 posters on every thread spreading misinformation.  

You apply the word subjective only to those complaining. anyone posting anything about the game, good, bad or otherwise is posting something subjective. And yes, you hear it more from fans of a famous IP as opposed to an unknown IP because one is FAMOUS and has more people that will voice an opinion over it. Also, the percentage has nothing to do with it being subjective or not.

The above misconceptions of the word subjective, makes your post subjective, the opposite of objective. May want to note that my post was not based on personal feelings nor misconceptions of the word unlike yours.

And no, there is no point in touching on the rest of your rant which was again, subjective to the point of absurdity.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  maxjam

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/05
Posts: 37

12/04/13 8:09:11 AM#25

I learnt a long time ago that if I enjoy a game I will play it, if I don't I wont - regardless of what opinions others have.

I played SWG from launch to shut down and thought I was a hardcore sandboxer but I have since been playing GW2 and SWTOR so I guess I enjoy themeparks as well.  

SWG and SWTOR in particular both get a lot of hate on the forums but tbh I don't care, the day I stop enjoying them I'll stop playing them - until that point others are welcome to voice their opinions as loud as they want it really has no effect on my enjoyment what-so-ever.

  Kicksave321

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/26/13
Posts: 309

12/04/13 8:10:23 AM#26
Originally posted by JJ82
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by JJ82

Yet HE is the one that cant hold an objective argument, you don't like him and only his argument was subjective!

I would wager that if ESO wasn't using a popular IP, that friend wouldn't have cared at all about the game.

If you use an IP, expect to hear from fans often and loudly. Especially if its being created in a way not similar to the IP.

Ah but your reply is very subjective .  You state expect to hear from fans often and loudly as if all fans are complaining when in reality it's a very small percentage it may seem often because like on this site it's the same 5-10 posters on every thread spreading misinformation.  

You apply the word subjective only to those complaining. anyone posting anything about the game, good, bad or otherwise is posting something subjective. And yes, you hear it more from fans of a famous IP as opposed to an unknown IP because one is FAMOUS and has more people that will voice an opinion over it. Also, the percentage has nothing to do with it being subjective or not.

The above misconceptions of the word subjective, makes your post subjective, the opposite of objective. May want to note that my post was not based on personal feelings nor misconceptions of the word unlike yours.

And no, there is no point in touching on the rest of your rant which was again, subjective to the point of absurdity.

 

Again little buddy you go into full defense mode when you are asked for proof or links to back up your claims.  So who took this personal again it would be you.   
  JJ82

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/13
Posts: 898

12/04/13 8:14:37 AM#27
Originally posted by Kicksave321
Originally posted by JJ82

You apply the word subjective only to those complaining. anyone posting anything about the game, good, bad or otherwise is posting something subjective. And yes, you hear it more from fans of a famous IP as opposed to an unknown IP because one is FAMOUS and has more people that will voice an opinion over it. Also, the percentage has nothing to do with it being subjective or not.

The above misconceptions of the word subjective, makes your post subjective, the opposite of objective. May want to note that my post was not based on personal feelings nor misconceptions of the word unlike yours.

And no, there is no point in touching on the rest of your rant which was again, subjective to the point of absurdity.

 

Again little buddy you go into full defense mode when you are asked for proof or links to back up your claims.  So who took this personal again it would be you.   

 

What claims did I make? please point them out to me. Going into attack mode again, must of touched a nerve by pointing out what you are saying is subjective...that's some serious touchy feely you have there. Please, continue with your rant oh angst filled one.

"People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18786

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

12/04/13 8:18:42 AM#28
Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by donpopuki
What bugs me is the cultural assumption within MMO player circles that a game must be perfect in every way in order to be enjoyed at all.

I see nothing wrong with having fun in a game for few months then moving on. I'm sure some will berate me for encouraging developers to create just good enough products but I will counter that having impossible high standards will only make you more miserable.

It's ok to have fun.

I'm with you. People who are expecting to be entertained for years are just setting themselves up for disappointment.

 Which in itself a disappointment. Most games now are designed and meant to be enjoyed only for a couple months. Then they are discarded to jump into the 'Next' big MMO. Why have we gone from MMOs like EQ, UO, SWG which were all games people enjoyed for years, to now games that we can expect no more than six months of enjoyment....if we are lucky.

I personally would rather be in the same MMO for the next 5 years, rather than the average of five weeks with todays MMOs.

Agreed, it's pretty clear most major MMO's are designed to follow the single player business model, sell a ton of copies at the start, which players will enjoy for some short period of time thereafter (say 3 months at best) before moving on to their next new game.

Sure, some people hang around for years, but they are a much smaller subset than the original target audience, just as is true with single player games.

Clearly different than the MMORPG designs of the past which appealled to a smaller audience but retained more of them for longer.

Obviously the new model works, and is very profitable, because large companies continue to deliver in this fashion.

There really is no good or bad to this, just an alternative profit model which is working as intended, even if I don't care for it personally.

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Roguewiz

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/01/02
Posts: 495

When a Kender says "oops!"; its already too late.

12/04/13 8:22:17 AM#29

Since the NDA hasn't been lifted yet (as far as I know), anything we discuss is moot.  Until we have a firm grasp on what the game is or isn't doing good, all we can say is "I like this game", or "this game sucks".

Besides, who cares if the game is themepark or sandbox.  What matters is the enjoyment of the game.  While, personally, I want something a little more sandbox-like; I'll tolerate a game if the character progression/customization is robust.

I be Raq, destroyer of game balance!
Raquelis in various games
Played: Everything
Playing: Everquest, Hearthstone, League of Legends
Wants: The World
Anticipating: Everquest Next, Everquest Next Landmark, Archeage

Trying to beat Dark Souls without using magic is like having a naked hot blond give you a root canal every day; painful and enjoyable at the same time.

  fs23otm

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/11/07
Posts: 256

12/04/13 8:26:27 AM#30

People complain just for the sake of complaining, most of the time. 

They can't accept when something is different then they think it should be. 

The problem with ESO Hate is the vast majority of people it touches:

1. Single Player fans who just wanted the next TES game.

2. MMO fans who want a game a certain way. 

3. Fans of both who just like to complain. 

4. Negative people in general.

 

Add them all up and that is where most of the hate comes from. I so far, like the game a lot, more then I thought I would. I now have real debate with myself over ESO and Wildstar. 

  mari3k

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 146

12/04/13 8:35:46 AM#31

Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !

You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.

Step in the arena and break the wall down

  Trionicus

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 488

12/04/13 8:38:02 AM#32

I've gotta say, the only reason I have a major dislike for ESO is because for some reason I have it stuck in my head that it will delay the next Elder Scrolls single player installment. I have enough generic MMO's to play, for free.

I have kept it in mind that it will probably be several years before they drop another Elder Scrolls game. Yes I did get into the weekend beta, I mean't to give the key away since I didn't feel like playing it but I never got around to it, sry guys :( I'll give away the next one!

  wanderica

Novice Member

Joined: 9/16/07
Posts: 84

12/04/13 8:39:34 AM#33
OP, I've come to expect it in the MMO world.  As one poster said, it's just like music.  People wear their MMO of choice as a status symbol, and as long as that's happening, it will never change.  The Spice Girls, for example sold 7 million albums (as much as Kid Rock's first album), but I've never met one person that will admit to buying it.  MMOs these days are no different.  Right now, it's "cool" to bash the new game until it proves itself to the "hardcores."

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2026

12/04/13 8:54:47 AM#34

Well every argument and perspective is necessarily subjective. That much is obvious; it cannot be any other way. What you're looking for though are people who keep a broader perspective in mind, beyond that of just their own narrow expectations.  Such people may, for example, not personally like the fact ESO has a loose class system in place because the other Elder Scrolls games had no such progression-narrowing feature, but may still be able to understand that classes are necessary to A) provide readily discernible differentiation between players in a multiplayer world that will frequently require grouping, and B) provide a reason to level multiple characters, the lack of which can be devastating for an MMO's longevity.  

While certainly not common on massive internet forums, such people do exist.  

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 791

12/04/13 8:55:27 AM#35
Originally posted by mari3k

Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !

You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.

 

I can't comment that...just  LOL ! 

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  WabbaWay

Novice Member

Joined: 3/21/12
Posts: 103

12/04/13 9:03:41 AM#36
Originally posted by mari3k

Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !

You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.

I don't even know if you're being sarcastic. I'll just assume you are.

Hah! Good one man.

  cura

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/24/04
Posts: 860

12/04/13 9:04:06 AM#37
Originally posted by sludgebeard

You just can NOT be in an Objective argument about MMO's. 

 

After ESO beta I had a friend who posted on Facebook telling his other friends that he really enjoyed the game and cant wait to get back into another beta session. Immediately he was bombarded by post from a friend of ours on how ESO is just "GW2 with Tab-Targeting", and how he hated how Non-Sandbox the game was.

 

And for some reason it just dawned on me, maybe because it was over social media, or the fact that I already held strong disdain for the responding poster. At that moment I realized that his argument, that was so so similar to the arguments on this very forum, was entirely subjective.

 

That was it, I simply observed that his opinion was based entirely on his personal feelings about a specific sub-genre of MMO's (Namely: Themeparks) and how impossible it was for my friend to argue back against him, he merely reiterated his shared joy of the game and still the replys were the same kind of subjective rebuttle Ive read here countless times.

 

"Your just in the Honeymoon stage, youll hate the game in a week once it releases" This was the statement that really got to me....Simply because my friend didnt share this guys exact view on MMO's he assumed that my friend was merely enjoying the game for the fact that it was new, as if his enjoyment of the game was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors.

 

Again I know this is a somewhat obvious conlusion I made, but I thought maybe if I made a post about it, I might see some consensus with some of you guys on the subject.

Regardless of ESO's quality You seem equally uncapable of accepting different opinions to the guy you mentioned. 

  ElRenmazuo

Elite Member

Joined: 10/28/06
Posts: 3899

12/04/13 9:04:25 AM#38
Originally posted by Raquis

ESO will be better just because you are going to get random quests from npcs.

like skyrim,this and open world exploring is the way forward for me.

EQN is also going to be like this but it looks like wildstar is going to be more traditional but with some perks like paths.

I don't know if their is some people that still wants kill 5 rats mmos.

Clearly you havent played ESO

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1363

12/04/13 9:15:24 AM#39
Originally posted by mari3k

Open world and sandbox are two things that DONT BELONG to an mmo !

You need to have a good story and linear path, thats the true art of rpg.

I'm guessing this is sarcasm...I hope.

 

Many people are themeparked out and they overreact when people say they enjoy them.  I can't imagine enjoying being told what to do by quest giver after quest giver in a world in which there should many ways to progress, of your choosing.  Until a few Sandbox games release in the upcoming two years the SB crowd will be on here ripping hand holding linear quest hub themeparks.  Get used to it.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10402

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

12/04/13 9:18:44 AM#40


Originally posted by sludgebeard
You just can NOT be in an Objective argument about MMO's. 

After ESO beta I had a friend who posted on Facebook telling his other friends that he really enjoyed the game and cant wait to get back into another beta session. Immediately he was bombarded by post from a friend of ours on how ESO is just "GW2 with Tab-Targeting", and how he hated how Non-Sandbox the game was.

And for some reason it just dawned on me, maybe because it was over social media, or the fact that I already held strong disdain for the responding poster. At that moment I realized that his argument, that was so so similar to the arguments on this very forum, was entirely subjective.

That was it, I simply observed that his opinion was based entirely on his personal feelings about a specific sub-genre of MMO's (Namely: Themeparks) and how impossible it was for my friend to argue back against him, he merely reiterated his shared joy of the game and still the replys were the same kind of subjective rebuttle Ive read here countless times.

"Your just in the Honeymoon stage, youll hate the game in a week once it releases" This was the statement that really got to me....Simply because my friend didnt share this guys exact view on MMO's he assumed that my friend was merely enjoying the game for the fact that it was new, as if his enjoyment of the game was an elaborate game of smoke and mirrors.

Again I know this is a somewhat obvious conlusion I made, but I thought maybe if I made a post about it, I might see some consensus with some of you guys on the subject.



Congratulations. Now realize that the first post was also based on personal feelings and you'll have a pretty clear picture of why most threads go haring off in the wilderness of wtf.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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