Trending Games | Trove | Darkest Dungeon | Elder Scrolls Online | Skyforge

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,771,374 Users Online:0
Games:720  Posts:6,187,170
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What is real life advantage in mmorpg's

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
140 posts found
  onlinenow25

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/07
Posts: 278

12/03/13 6:30:33 PM#21

First of all these seems to be an increase in the definition of what pay to win actually means.

 

Depending on your version of pay to win, depends on a proper response.   But the general response is because in a video game everyone more or less is at an equal playing field.  People progress or get good at a game due to the amount of time put in, and they don't have to think about the outside world.

 

Pay to Win comes in a few forms depending on who you talk to.

  1. Best gear, items are only through a cash shop.
  2. Time spent vrs Paying to Have.
To me the above 2 are the most I have read about.  1 is self explanatory but 2 isn't as easily seen to people.  Basically the standard argument is you could spend $10 bucks for something in game 'helpful' to progress or spend 25-50+ Hours farming to progress.
 
The other issue that a cash shop brings is an attitude of money vrs time, and clouds the play for fun/leisure attitude.  Most do not enjoy the thought in the back of their head that they could just work a short shift to progress in less than half the time not spending money.  They don't want to bring the real world into their game world.
 
 
Sports is actually a really good example.  You don't get good at playing a sport by spending money, you get good by spending time playing it, and many people want that same sort of RPG progression to be a representation of time and effort put into the game, not time spent at work making money.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

12/03/13 6:41:31 PM#22
Originally posted by Fdzzaigl

This whole thing about time = money therefore it is not pay 2 win is ridiculous.

The whole way of thinking has just gone off track and has dragged things in that have nothing to do with the game itself.

You should not bring real life economy into games. If one guy is a manager and makes $50 an hour and another guy is just an employee and makes $10 an hour, the manager should suddenly be able to progress 5x more by paying? You will just end up with the definition of pay 2 win then.

It's like saying that you can use real money in a game of monopoly to cheat your way out.

How is the manager that works 50 hrs a week and the employee that works 20 hrs a week ever going to be on the same playing field ?

In this type of situation real life is always going to intrude on the game. It's just a case of are you the manager or the employee in real life.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2627

12/03/13 7:13:12 PM#23
Originally posted by lizardbones
I think once people have established their own advantage, they want to protect it. If that advantage is free time, then protect it against cash shops. If that advantage is money, protect it against people with free time. I think that is a really difficult thing for a developer to balance.

 Well, I would not be the norm then, as I make good money, a family etc...So I have the money, more then I have the time, but I still find it not right.  If someone has the time, good for them, when I am in the game, me and his time are 100% equal without the cash shop.  I like equality as far as my games go.

 

I also think it is fine for games to cater to the cash shop crowd also, not everything should be the same, but unfortunately, their is not enough imo of the non-cash shop variety going.   So as a consumer, and on a forum, I voice this.

  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

12/03/13 7:29:07 PM#24

I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.

 

  Noslack76

Novice Member

Joined: 7/16/12
Posts: 9

12/03/13 7:34:11 PM#25

I have a theory about this whole thing,why not use RL money as the game currency but don't charge a but load for items let it turn into a real world economy  and any transaction that happens in game the game company gets a % simple player ran economy that may actually boost the real life economy.  also they need to quit making the games depend so much on items more on skills that you learn kinda like Ultima online was when it first came out

simple is best really  i kinda went little off subject.  I think pay to win is lazy push to to win tactics and a greedy un ethical way to make money off of a game.  but you have made the most valid argument ive ever seen about this subject.  a game is not truly fun unless you do something to earn your levels and skill not have it handed to you because well example:  "MOMY Johny beat me again can you buy me a sword so i can beat him"  Momy only cares about shutting this brat up so she can finish smoking her crack and meth so she will spend as much as she can to do her drugs with out care.  this ruins more than just economy it ruins game play becuase now you got a spoiled brat out there griefing people instead of a mature player who is willing to role play.  this pay to win crap has taken RP out of mmorpg there is no more RP in mmorpg its just mmo now days. sorry my grammer and spelling suck.  you do put up a good argument though

  5Luck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/23/10
Posts: 171

12/03/13 7:52:45 PM#26

Well why not reverse the poles here for a moment:

 

How about a game that is F2P w/out a buy in. No drops at all save for consumables and all gear is $0.10 no scaling to lvl or content with a high lvl of customability. But you will need low lvl gear to get to the higher lvls or you'll be undergeared or naked.

 

Maybe we could really flesh out what players actualy want out of their gear and make a better model.

 

That would make it even for everyone right?

 

I mean thats not P2W is it?

  monochrome19

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/09/13
Posts: 313

12/03/13 8:06:33 PM#27
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.

 

Perfect! +10

I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:

 

If you don't have the time either:

a) Don't play

b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or

c) Play and don't complain

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

12/03/13 8:48:48 PM#28
Originally posted by monochrome19
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.

 

Perfect! +10

I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:

 

If you don't have the time either:

a) Don't play

b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or

c) Play and don't complain

I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.

See if they agree with you.

 

Still wonder why mmos changed ?

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 999

12/03/13 9:38:34 PM#29
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by monochrome19
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.

 

Perfect! +10

I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:

 

If you don't have the time either:

a) Don't play

b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or

c) Play and don't complain

I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.

See if they agree with you.

 

Still wonder why mmos changed ?

 

I don't think its a matter of agreeing about catering.  Its a matter do you want to turn MMORPG's into an elitist game or a game with that everyone can compete on a level playing field with a base entry level.   Even if there are people to cater to it you also are more likely to alienate those who aren't willing to pay to keep up with the Jones.  If you can't raid or PvP or level without spending 400 a month in buffs don't you think you're going to put off far more casual players than you will attract who are bid budget spenders?  Where does it end?

 

For me paying a fair rate and having a fair playing field is much more about gamemanship.  I don't like variable outside factors determining outcomes.  Time spend in game is not the same as financial investments because money is not playing the game.  If someone has 20 hours a day to play they're actually playing the game.  If I have 5 I am still playing under the same rules.  P2W to me comes down to saying I can only practice with my basketball team for 4 vs. their 20 hours a week so I will spend more money to get 20 point advantage at the start the game.  

 

 

 

 

  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1270

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

12/03/13 9:54:32 PM#30

What kind of person feels they need an advantage over others that only money can buy?  

 

The problem I encounter is I'll work hard to get that cyber coin to buy those items but when I wear them I get all kinds of negative comments.  "Why don't you just quit gold buyer."  "Must be nice to have money to spend."  And I quested or crafted or begged friends to join - basically worked - to get it.  No one believes I didn't use real life money.  So p2w promotes jealously and distrust.

 

I understand the need to lessen the hours it takes to accomplish things.  I am all for this !!!  The argument some people have jobs, wife, kids, social commitments.  Gaming isn't in their mom's basement.  Yeah, I work too.  Maybe not as many hours as most but I get it.  

 

So in the end it's bad gameplay practice to use money or time.  Or grinding or complex puzzles or trinity biased content.

  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

12/03/13 10:09:57 PM#31

The logic in the OP is inherently flawed because despite what the old adage states, time is not money. It is time. A universal force. Money is just currency.

How is that relevant? Let's change the example in the OP up to illustrate this.

There are 168 hours in a week. You can play 20 and the other guy can play 80, but the total number of hours that are available to play doesn't change. You are willing to buy advancement and thus skip actually playing through said advancement and this seems equal to you. It might be in this case where the variables are fixed in such a way that it seems sensible.

Now imagine two players each playing for 110 hours in one week (every waking hour assuming they sleep normally,) but one is willing to pay for progression as well. The other cannot change the time-space continuum and "pay with more time" because time operates outside of the financial sphere of influence. The paying-to-advance player can pump as much of his money as he wants into the game, but the other guy cannot alter his pace of advancement to equivalency by using more time, as it is a resource paid at a fixed rate. 

We can't alter that rate, and so the concept that time= money in regard to P2W mmos is meaningless.

 

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Robokapp

Elite Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4515

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/03/13 10:17:37 PM#32

we don't want to compete against each other's wallets. losing your spot to a richer player or forever having the fear of this happening is simply too out-of-character for most players. taking a side quest, just exploring an area...cant afford to do that. you'll lose your raidspot to the guy who bought his full tier 1 and right now is pugging tier 2. you got to keep going, got to stay ahead of him.

 

this adresses the money advantage.

 

people have different budgets, and being forced to compete against uneven wealth players is forcing minmaxing which is not everyone's playstyle.

 

within the virtual world it makes sense for players doing more to achieve more. It's something many feel the discontent for in real life. Lets say you're not an hourly associate but on salary like i am. I can ork 40 hours/week, and get my paycheck. or i can work 80 hours/week and get the same paycheck. Or I can work 100 hours/week...same paycheck.

 

exactly why would i want that in a game?

 

this adresses time advantage.

 

overall thought: in real life you're born into a background that's uneven, have uneven opportunities and your life shapes with heavy influences from it. I wish I never have to work. sadly that's not what I got. I have an engineering job, I live in a first world country...it could be a lot worse. It could also be a lot better.

 

in the virtual world, however, everyone is born at level 1 in the loading screen with no inherited wealth. It's very ... almost utopian in concept, but we probably all fantasize to some extent what a world would look like if everoyne was equal in it. Some are attracted to MMOs for this reason alone.

 

you're born at level 1. if you're a world-race progression raider or a top 1% pvp'er when you grow up, or an infinitely rich market flipper, then that if who YOU ARE in this world. It's what you built yourself into. It's a transparent and simple image that you portray and others understand and easily identify in-game. its too istracting to let your credit card influence your progress.

 

simple notion: all time spent in-game affects you in-game. all money spent in the shop affects you in-game. yet thi money was not provided by the game, so it breaks the '4th wall' of the virtual world.

 

perhaps far-fetched in today's high speed dead in 3 months mmo landscape but in a world that is peristent and always there with or without you, the time you spend in-game is irrelevant. you are immortal, the world is immortal...time is not a factor. in-game strictly speaking. you play 50 hours/week, kill last boss in 2 months. you play 5 hours/week, you kill last boss in 20 months. Whats the difference? it's still a kill per 500 hours, is it not?

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4375

12/03/13 10:38:44 PM#33
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by monochrome19
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

I often wonder why people would bother playing a game that they admittedly don't have time for & would gladly pay money so they can pretend they are actually playing at a level they cannot attain. Reminds me of old men who go thru a mid-life crisis and buy an expensive electric guitar & never learn to play but show it off to their friends as if they could.

 

Perfect! +10

I've wondered this often as well. Here's my take:

 

If you don't have the time either:

a) Don't play

b) Play a game more suited for your schedule, or

c) Play and don't complain

I have to laugh at these posts. It sounds great what you write on a forum. Now go tell a business that they should cater to the people who will give them less money but occupy their services more often instead of the the people who will pay way more and need it less.

See if they agree with you.

 

Still wonder why mmos changed ?

 

I don't think its a matter of agreeing about catering.  Its a matter do you want to turn MMORPG's into an elitist game or a game with that everyone can compete on a level playing field with a base entry level.   Even if there are people to cater to it you also are more likely to alienate those who aren't willing to pay to keep up with the Jones.  If you can't raid or PvP or level without spending 400 a month in buffs don't you think you're going to put off far more casual players than you will attract who are bid budget spenders?  Where does it end?

 

For me paying a fair rate and having a fair playing field is much more about gamemanship.  I don't like variable outside factors determining outcomes.  Time spend in game is not the same as financial investments because money is not playing the game.  If someone has 20 hours a day to play they're actually playing the game.  If I have 5 I am still playing under the same rules.  P2W to me comes down to saying I can only practice with my basketball team for 4 vs. their 20 hours a week so I will spend more money to get 20 point advantage at the start the game.  

 

 

 

 

That's all wonderful what you want...I'm not laughing a that. I'm laughing when people actually act like they should get it.

I want the learning channel to educate people, not show pro wrestling. I want the discovery channel to show things that teach you about the world not show a bunch of red necks destroying it. Things that cost money don't work that way.... Everything starts out with high ideals....till the bills start to show up.

I want games to be made by people who want me to enjoy the game and don't care about money. If I ever actually posted that I think I should get it and I'm going to hold out till I do... you all have permission to laugh at me.

 

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Rhoklaw

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/12/04
Posts: 2977

$500 Backer to 2014's Top New MMO... The Repopulation!

12/03/13 10:46:07 PM#34

I have to say, real life money injection in a PvE game is pointless as PvE is about entertainment value, nothing more. If you allow someone to use real life money in a PvP game, it immediately becomes a pay to win model which in turn ruins the competitive nature of the game.

I have to agree with what someone else just posted. That being, we all have the same amount of time each week to play a game. Once you start bringing in monetary value of your time into the equation, it becomes more about "us" and less about the game. MMO's have taken a real beating because of the competitive nature of PVP in them. Because gaming companies know as humans, we love to be #1 in anything and everything.

If you love playing MMO's and being #1 is important enough to you, than put in the time. If making money in real life is important enough to you, than that's a personal choice.

Bottom line, pay to win models is bad juju for MMO's on any level.

  jesad

Novice Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 730

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

12/04/13 3:07:53 AM#35

I think that in the course of having this conversation several assumptions were made that caused the argument to veer off course.

First - The assumption that the money spent would only be spent by a player that did not have enough time to compete with another player.

This is totally inaccurate and causes the real problem behind P2W games to become obscured.  The real problem with P2W games is that there are actually people, believe it or not, who have plenty of time to play and plenty of money to burn and in a P2W game those people get to own you.

Second - That if you don't have enough time to play then you shouldn't be playing. 

This supposes that there is some bar to reach or some medal to attain in some certain amount of time and is again what is wrong with not only the basic setup of the MMORPG but the spirit that its community has taken on.  Everybody is always staring at everyone else's junk.

It's to the point that if you do not have a friend sitting behind you spending more time looking over your shoulder at your monitor than looking at their own, then you are probably that friend.

At the same time though no one has the "time" to help someone else, even if in doing so they are helping their selves, and so this is why the companies can take advantage of you with the P2W format.  I say more power to them.  Someone figured out a way to not only keep their companies in business but to really suck the WHOLE life out of this community, as if sitting in a chair for several hours a day wasn't already taking half.

  tom_gore

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1803

12/04/13 3:14:22 AM#36

Only people who play MMOs for a "living" complain about P2W. They think they should be entitled to have all the best stuff in the game because they have went through the hoops to disable their entire real life in favor of being able to play more.

Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.

P2W has become a word MMO-junkies slap on every game that offers shortcuts to people who actually have a job, a family and limited amount of time to play the game.

 

  Frammshamm

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 11

12/04/13 3:25:00 AM#37
Time is NEVER unequal between people. We all have 24hrs to work with each and every day. We dont all have equal access to money, but when it comes to time.. there is NOTHING that is more universally equal. If you choose to play less, then you are choosing to be not as high lvl or not as geared out. This is not a real life advantage... this is your Choice. I cant CHOOSE to have more money ( well.. not directly). So yes time is money..... but the fact that my time might not be worht as much in terms of money as your time.. that advantage is now taken out of the equation. All we have left is the same 24 hrs to work with. Play IRL or play the game, its your CHOICE.
  PerfArt

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

12/04/13 3:27:12 AM#38
Originally posted by tom_gore

Only people who play MMOs for a "living" complain about P2W. They think they should be entitled to have all the best stuff in the game because they have went through the hoops to disable their entire real life in favor of being able to play more.

Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.

P2W has become a word MMO-junkies slap on every game that offers shortcuts to people who actually have a job, a family and limited amount of time to play the game.

 

The thread isn't a discussion about people who don't like game monetization being wrong or right, per se. It was positing that money and time are equivalent and interchangeable in regard to advancement, which they are not. That has been established.

Whether or not monetization is liked or disliked is immaterial to the topic at hand.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  asrlohz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/29/11
Posts: 648

Alea iacta est, beloved Doomsayers.

12/04/13 3:49:14 AM#39
Originally posted by PerfArt

The logic in the OP is inherently flawed because despite what the old adage states, time is not money. It is time. A universal force. Money is just currency.

How is that relevant? Let's change the example in the OP up to illustrate this.

There are 168 hours in a week. You can play 20 and the other guy can play 80, but the total number of hours that are available to play doesn't change. You are willing to buy advancement and thus skip actually playing through said advancement and this seems equal to you. It might be in this case where the variables are fixed in such a way that it seems sensible.

Now imagine two players each playing for 110 hours in one week (every waking hour assuming they sleep normally,) but one is willing to pay for progression as well. The other cannot change the time-space continuum and "pay with more time" because time operates outside of the financial sphere of influence. The paying-to-advance player can pump as much of his money as he wants into the game, but the other guy cannot alter his pace of advancement to equivalency by using more time, as it is a resource paid at a fixed rate. 

We can't alter that rate, and so the concept that time= money in regard to P2W mmos is meaningless.

 

 

Both time and money are currencies. A rich man with little time will hire someone with little money but a lot of time to do tedious tasks such as cleaning or accounting. If Time equals Money that would mean that is an objective currency. A stable one. But it isn't, it is subjective. If I work 2 hours and you work 4 I can still earn more than you if I make more progression.

Same goes for games. If I spend 2 hours playing an MMO and you play 4, I can still be ahead of you because you spent time exploring and enjoying the game and I just rushed to keep up with you. Same goes if I pay 100 quid to skip the progression you "pay" in hours out of your day.

All in all, you need to ask "Do I want to make quick progress or do I want to enjoy myself?" if not, you should probably play something else.  So yes. Real life advantages transfer into games. But it isn't limited to time and/or money but to skill, playstyle and enjoyment.

 

Back in vanilla WoW I was level 19 after 24 hours put into that one character. My mates made fun of me how I was utter crap at the game but I was enjoying myself. I was exploring the world and I traveled to distant continents only to be killed. I made barely any silver and I made barely any progress but I was enjoying my place in the world. I did eventually reach level 55 with my main and I enjoyed every single level of that.

 

I'm guessing this is similar to what you are getting at?

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

12/04/13 3:53:28 AM#40
Originally posted by tom_gore

Don't like the game's monetization? Don't play it. There are plenty of different models to choose from.

I agree with this, although it's getting harder and harder to find a pure subscription with no cash shop lurking at the edges. 

There are a number of games that have come out recently (and are on the horizon) that I will probably never play purely because I don't trust the business model.  I try to not post too much about it since I don't want to get in the way of the fun of people who feel differently than I do and *can* enjoy other business models, but it is something I feel strongly about so the occassional snipe slips out.

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search