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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is MMO LvL Progressions too fast?

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70 posts found
  User Deleted
11/27/13 11:18:32 PM#41

Originally posted by maplestone
There's a fine line between enduring progression and leaving players feeling like Sisyphus.

And each player has a different line :)


Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/30/09
Posts: 888

11/28/13 8:28:52 AM#42





People want faster leveling because we have been grinding out levels in MMOs for 15 years. It is old hat. That ding that felt so magical in 1999 doesn't even raise an eyebrow anymore. It is time to move on.


The time has come for the levelless MMO. How many millions or billions of dollars have been spent on power leveling services or people trading accounts because people don't feel like grinding levels anymore. That is money that is just going out the door. This is why Everquest Next is going to be such a break through. It is not going to be the same old grind again.


What people really want is slower meaningful progression NOT slow leveling. Levelless MMO design will give us this. That item you got from a named monster on the first day won't be something you throw away 2 hours later. It could be useful for weeks because there is no outleveling it. Sure you will find better items eventually but it won't because you are simply racing from quest hub to quest hub.


Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

11/28/13 2:43:47 PM#43
I think it's definitely too fast but since you have to have some kind of progression in MMOs and people want to see that progression happening regularly, they have to do something that will show people that they are actually getting somewhere. Personally, I think we should do away with ever reaching the end of leveling.  It should last forever.  Barring that, just have a ton of levels in the game.  Make level 1000 the end of the game and make sure people can't go up a level more than once a day.  It might take 3 years to hit max level but people still get that "ding" and can see that they are getting somewhere without hitting endgame in 3 days.

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Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 44

11/28/13 2:51:59 PM#44
Gaining experience should happen in real time and with experience players would buy skills.


Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/21/13
Posts: 225

Respect people who speak their mind factually and intelligently, and please, never put anyone down.

11/28/13 3:27:30 PM#45

Here's the to make progression appealing in a game, but also, have great balance.

Lets say for arguements sake that it takes roughly 6 months at a players best efforts to reach max level. Now how long will the game be able to sustain him/her at max level before they lose interest? What will they impliment into the game to hold their attention, expansions/new content?

If there is no max level within a game, is there a means for players starting 2 years after games launch to EVER be compedative with players who will always be 2 years ahead in their character development? How will the developer overcome this issue?

You see, the simplist (I'm not suggesting it the best) way to develop a game is to create a cap that holds players in one place for a period of time while entertaining them with additional content specifically aimed at max level. This gives new(er) players opportunity to catch up before another expansion is released and the floodgate opens again for a few more levels.

The real issue begins when a game reaches multiple expansions. Again, let's hypothesize and say that the original game + first expansion takes roughly 6 months each to reach max level. Now the second expansion is released and some friends of mine want to take up the game and play with me. At the current rate it's going to take them a full year before they even reach the current expansions content + another 6 months to level that to be on par with me. They realised this and decided to not play the game.

Conclusion: A long/slow progression is probably appealing and a great idea for a new game that does not have expansions/new content for higher levels. This idea would not work for a game with expansions (particually multiple expansions) unless the time to progress through older content was reduced somewhat.


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/05
Posts: 1209

12/01/13 2:01:14 PM#46

Yes, but this is a game design issue.  In Asheron's Call, it took several years before the first player ever hit the max level.  (126)  Even so, max level was just max 'level'.  You could still raise stats and attributes up to a separate skill cap far beyond that.  So 'level' was just a way of keeping track of how much XP you had total.

If you were in your 50's, it might take you a week to hit another level or 2.  If you saw someone in your 80's, they were powerful compared to you, and if you saw someone in their 100's, HOLY CRAP.  You may not have known HOW powerful they were, and in what areas, as it is totally possible to gimp yourself in the game, but you knew they had the potential to be more powerful than you.

Even after Tim the Enchanter hit level 126 for the first time ever, it still took a year or more before it started to become normal.  A few more people hit max level in that time, but it was still months and years before EVERYONE started approaching that level.  Even so, the game was made in a way that allowed level 80s to do the same content as the 126's.  A level 50 could group with a level 90.  Etcetera.  For a game to still be unique and new 3 to 4 years after release back then is incredible.  It had so much content that nobody was bored by max level.  They were just getting to content they never even knew existed.  And with the monthly updates, content was constantly added for free every single month.

Games need to get away from levels and skillpoint-based abilities like WoW with its skill-trees.  They need to shift toward skill/attribute based games that allow differentiation between builds.  Allow people to make their own builds, instead of guaranteeing that everyone is a cookie-cutter of one of 3-5 possible builds in a class.  Let people make their own classes, and decide how to approach the content themselves.  Make content difficult, and keep people around for the long run instead of worrying whether they're going to blow through everything in a month and be done with your game.


Novice Member

Joined: 8/25/04
Posts: 456

As famous as the unknown soldier

12/01/13 4:03:15 PM#47

i can sum it up this way:

this past april i was in  hospital to get a tumor removed from my head of all places, i had my laptop with me, and in the three weeks i existed in delirious, drug induced la-la land, i managed to start Aion, and level a cleric to 50, and he was geared great.

the day i got home from the hospital, and of the heavy meds, i loaded up AION, played 5 mins, and uninstalled., i couldn't really remember anything .

have games gotten easy? um ya.

Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...


Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 6669

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

12/01/13 4:16:40 PM#48

Level progression is way too fast. BUT devs create level progression nowadays for all the wrong reasons. Making the level progression slow with the current mechanics leads people to grind beyond belief on subscription mmos to pretend that the game has enough content to justify the sub. As for the non-sub games, its the obvious reason that they would need to put the slow leveling so they can sell exp potions.


When we talk about mmos needing to innovate, its not just about innovating graphics or action vs tab target.... its about innovating the entire core game as well.... that includes progression, leveling, npc/mob behavior. Everything.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

12/01/13 5:05:20 PM#49

As long as there is a visible  path to power it will be too fast or too cheated.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"


Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/05
Posts: 167

12/01/13 11:47:29 PM#50
Originally posted by goboygo

Yes its too fast because developers are still using a "bar" to measure player progression and people want the bar to move faster, so the developers do just that.  A leveling system like Syrim , Darkfall or Mortal Online is far more interesting.  People will spend a year developing their character and not even mind.

Actually the way Darkfall handles mob drops is the best I've seen as well.  Mobs don't drop gear they drop materials and broken gear pieces used in salvaging and crafting.

Throw in the occasional epic gear drop as well and it keeps it interesting.  So skill gains, and crafting for gear in my opinion is the only way to fly.  Everything else is just like watching a clock.

Agreed; I liked this approach as well. Skill gains is the way to go, but it can't be DF1's asian level of grind either. I'd say in a month a player should be able to pvp with the best(But lose to a better skilled player) yet still have much more things to progress in.



Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 5294

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

12/02/13 12:00:37 AM#51

viewpoint of an endgame raider below.


leveling speed is to me something that should bebalanced with the speed of gaining abilities.


for example...going lvel 2 to 3 to 6 to 200 to 1000 doesnt matter much to me. but going from 2 basic atacks to 3, to a combo, to an aoe, to multiple such abilities...I need an hour or two with each new ability to figure out not only how to use it but how it fits in with the rest of my abilities, where i can make use of it etc.


this is why i strongly oppose to dual specs. This isn't the topic but...I leveled to maybe 45. sudenly i'm needed in a different role. a quick respec and ... BAM. HERES YOUR 13 ABILITIES. GOOD LUCK. And I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know where to keybind them, I don't know how they go together...I guess I'll jut hit these two for the next instance.


Leveling speed should be much MUCH slower if you have super-accessible dual-spec, or you should have to do a quick...1000% xp re-leveling for your offspec. So if it took a month the first time, it takes 3 days this time around.


My take on it at should have at least 1 hour between the gain of new abilities. Or you'll get overwhelmed and lose touch with your character.


Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

12/02/13 12:03:57 AM#52
Originally posted by Novusod





The time has come for the levelless MMO. How many millions or billions of dollars have been spent on power leveling services or people trading accounts because people don't feel like grinding levels anymore. That is money that is just going out the door. This is why Everquest Next is going to be such a break through. It is not going to be the same old grind again.


How would this actually work though. Just a gear grind? Sounds really boring. I want a way to see my character progress and improve. Not just get better gear. Otherwise it's not an RPG and I won't be playing. Sure maybe you could level up skills like in EVE rather than having classes but I just don't see how you can have an RPG without leveling up *something*. This is my main problem with GW2. Most levels in that game don't really mean much in terms of improving skills so there doesn't seem much point in playing just to get stuff that makes you look a bit cooler. 


What people really want is slower meaningful progression NOT slow leveling. Levelless MMO design will give us this. That item you got from a named monster on the first day won't be something you throw away 2 hours later. It could be useful for weeks because there is no outleveling it. Sure you will find better items eventually but it won't because you are simply racing from quest hub to quest hub.

This part sounds good to me but the people trained by Blizzard to be loot-addicts would probably hate it.



Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

12/02/13 12:33:00 AM#53
Originally posted by Antiquated

From reading 10 years of reading hardcore vs casual threads: Slow R Hardcore.

Doesn't matter what you're discussing--transport, leveling speed, progression and/or quality of life improvements of any variety. Fast R Bad, Slow R Good.


Funny, I associate "hardcore" more with rushing through to the end game (aka "real game")  and blitzing content so you have bragging rights on doing it first whilst wanting to "stop and smell the roses" and experience content slowly like it's actually a world you're going through seems like a more casual playstyle. All depends on how you define those terms I guess.



Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/11
Posts: 121

12/02/13 1:05:13 AM#54
This is the result of whiners asking for short time character development.

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

12/02/13 1:25:21 AM#55
Originally posted by RPGForever
This is the result of whiners asking for short time character development.

Because Hardcore in mmorpg's became having what someone else wants instead of the most skilled or involved. They can create hardcore forum fanboys this way that will defend anything.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"


Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 402

12/02/13 4:07:15 AM#56
Originally posted by Alminie

is mmo progressions too fast?

should mmo lvling be slower?

is it fine the way it is?

I don't really care.  As a player, my chief concern is that I enjoy whatever time I spend in the game. If I was a developer of a game with super-fast levelling, then I might be worried about players ripping through my content too quickly and quitting. But it isn't my game, it isn't my investment and it isn't my problem.

  User Deleted
12/02/13 4:21:25 AM#57
Actually, I think asking if leveling is too fast avoids the issue. I am starting to wonder if leveling itself is an anachronism and we need to introduce alternate means of progression and character development into games? 

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/12/11
Posts: 1252


12/02/13 4:58:44 AM#58

People want and love numbers as fast as they can so they can brag about it.

Highest-fastest-best of best-biggest-largest-smallest-richest and so on(typical human need and behavior).


One country( we all know which country want this BEST of the BEST...or BIGGEST-STRONGEST) that doing there very best to make sure whole planet want this:P

Im affraid this won't change any time soon, its only getting worse:(


Days that mmo's where timesink and slowly progressing are long gone.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/05/04
Posts: 10

12/02/13 5:09:53 AM#59
Progression is MUUUUUUCH to fast in mmo's today, and the devs are never ready for end game game play because of it. It's a lose lose situation.

Novice Member

Joined: 11/02/04
Posts: 433

12/02/13 5:13:37 AM#60

have been the last 10 + years, game are to easy this day


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