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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » No more random and gamble ...

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101 posts found
  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3644

11/29/13 10:00:57 AM#21
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Scot
Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".

Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.

I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?

Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ?

You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for.

If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/29/13 10:02:31 AM#22
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Scot
Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.

Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".

Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too.

I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?

Actually pretty much everything in the OP was about randomness that exists heavily in p2p, virtually nothing in it was about lock boxes at all.

when your fail to enchant your gears ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lockboxes here

When you fail to craft something ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lock boxes here

When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lock boxes here

When chest box reward drop a crap ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p.  There are lock boxes with chest, but the randomness of getting crap is not a lockbox

When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?  Just randomness as it exists in p2p, no lockboxes here.

When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?

 

True in some f2p, they increase the chance of good stuff, but the RNG exists heavily in p2p.  IMO f2p is no worse than p2p in RNG.  At least f2p gave you a way to reduce the RNG.

Any f2p vs p2p debate in this thread is complete hijacking and IMO totally irrelevant.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

11/29/13 10:05:25 AM#23
Originally posted by Scot
Gambling is the newish F2P disease.

Seriously? UO, SWG, EVE, EQ, AC... none of them had the stuff the OP is talking about - random loot, random drops or random change of failure at crafting?  Is this revisionist history or just a really polarized view blanketing every aspect of MMOs for you?

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/29/13 11:11:44 AM#24


Originally posted by Quizzical

Originally posted by lizardbones Think about it like this. The random number generators used in most applications aren't really random. If you know the starting state of any RNG, you know what the next number in the "random" series is going to be. RNGs aren't really producing random numbers, they're just producing numbers that can't be predicted without knowing all the inputs. The universe is like that. We just don't know the macroscopic inputs. The universe isn't all that random at all.
If you need a random number generator to be fast, then yeah, you make it predictable like that.  When you really need it to be random, you don't take the next output from some simple formula; you make it depend on highly unpredicable things like the exact latency in CPU clock cycles to grab some bit of data from memory while a ton of other things are going.

If you genuinely knew the exact state of the universe at some point in time, would that really tell you the next output of a really random random number generator?  Not necessarily.  There is still some dispute as to whether quantum mechanics is truly random or just we haven't found the underlying formulas that make it look random; last I heard, physicists mostly favored the "it really is random" side.

But again, there are a lot of perfectly good probability distributions besides the uniform distribution on some set.




They have built a truly random number generator, based on quantum computing. (Quantum random number generator and ANU Quantum Random Number Server) With something like this, knowing the starting state doesn't give you any information on the current or future state of the system.

**

But note that when I say the universe isn't random, I made sure to say, "macroscopically". Objects in motion will stay in motion, objects at rest will stay at rest, electrons will generally squiggle around photons, and so on. If the universe was very well ordered macroscopically, our brains wouldn't work.

**

The universe is probabilistic though, regardless of the scale you're looking on.

The definitions of "random" don't seem to have much to do with probability so much as they seem to have to do with expectations. Like, it's all relative. If you don't know the starting state of an RNG, then it's random. If you do know the starting state of an RNG, then it's not random. It seems to depend on what you know.

I know this is off the thread's topic, but this seems slightly more interesting. Sorry. I'll stop now.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  crack_fox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 386

11/29/13 1:45:36 PM#25
Originally posted by iixviiiix

Make it simple :

Do anyone here ever feel mad  ...

when you fail ...

... why we keep the random gamble ?

I get annoyed, but I enjoy the element of chance. I like surprise and spontaneity. Failure can be frustrating if you feel that you have no influence over outcomes. Players ought to be able to mitigate that to some degree - at least in the examples of enchantment and crafting. But I don't want complete control and guaranteed success.

For me, predictability leads to boredom and randomness is necessary. I want there to always be the possibility for the unexpected to occur, particularly where magic is concerned. This applies equally to both spectacular success and catastrophic failure.

I do agree on the example of the rat tail drop chance. That kind of shit is just tired and needs to go, along with the rat tails 'quests' themselves.

 

  iridescence

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 943

11/29/13 1:53:53 PM#26

Actually I find lockboxes the least annoying out of all this crap. I hate gambling so I don't use them but I've never seen a game force you to open them. On the other hand having to kill 50 bears to get the 5 bear claws I need really makes me rage.

 

  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 5753

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

11/29/13 2:39:17 PM#27
Originally posted by iixviiiix

Make it simple :

Do anyone here ever feel mad  ...

  1. when your fail to enchant your gears ?
  2. When you fail to craft something ?
  3. When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?
  4. When chest box reward drop a crap ?
  5. When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?
  6. When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?

 

The joy they bring are little but most time it cause you mad.

So why we keep the random gamble ?

  1. Not really I just get this gamers frustration on hoping the next enchant will not fail and get gamers excitement when it doesn't fail.
  2. see 1
  3. I kinda dislike getting things instant. It kinda bothered me in RIFT at the time I followed the quests that for example I had to get 0/20 artifacs from some npc's that every npc I killed dropped that item. Not sure if this is changed it to more random because it seems to be more random or that it is because the higher level.
  4. ingame "crap" still brings in cash/money/credits/silver or what ever currency.
  5. Those type of quests are long quest for me as I don't follow the trail to the quest area because I might already know there are plenty of rats or what ever around so bound to get them anyway due to me exploring.
  6. Not really sure what you mean?, do you mean like instant everytime hit on quest related drops devs changed to if so then hopefully everything else in the game is something I also enjoy because I don't like the 100% hit change on drops. Makes the game kinda boring.
Random is kinda rooted into my gaming system, totally opposite how I act in real life, but that's just the gamer in me.
 
  udon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1460

11/29/13 2:52:26 PM#28

There are two different discussion points here.  One is the idea of randomness in-game and the other is randomness in the cash shop.  I don't really mind randomness in the game as it adds a bit of flavor and longevity to the game.  I remember when SWTOR first came out and my entire raid force was geared out in a matter of a couple weeks.  It really sucked the life out of the game having individual drops.  The only way that would work is if they made progression much and I mean much deeper.

The other form of randomness in the cash shop I hate and tend to avoid games that do it.  It's not that I have a issue with gambling per say but those boxes are little more than ways to charge in some cases $100 or more for a single item without having to put a price tag on it.  Plus they have this way of consuming the best (subjective term for sure) content either stat or appearance wise in the game again because they can command such huge price tags on them and those guaranteed crafting success items that some games sell are just P2W in it's most base form.

  Vidir

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/14/04
Posts: 962

11/29/13 3:04:18 PM#29
Originally posted by iixviiiix

Make it simple :

Do anyone here ever feel mad  ...

when your fail to enchant your gears ?

When you fail to craft something ?

When boss that you hard work to take down drop random trash ?

When chest box reward drop a crap ?

When quest ask for 10 rats tail with 5% change drop ?

When developers ninja patch and change drop rate ?

 

The joy they bring are little but most time it cause you mad.

So why we keep the random gamble ?

What do you  expect? Should the game ask you to watch 3 episodes of Breaking bad for level or maybe to have sex with nabors dougters sister or go buy coffe at the store.What do you expect mate?

  ariboersma

Novice Member

Joined: 9/26/11
Posts: 1817

11/29/13 3:08:03 PM#30
Originally posted by Scot
Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.

My guess is you never played L2 when it was still sub. It was doing random before WOW came out =P Only one race/class could craft(the race could craft to a certain point then they had to choose to either gather or craft at higher lvls) and they were the most efficient gatherers as well. When you crafted something high lvl you had a large fail chance which was made lower by having more mats or a better recipe. 

Same went for enchanting gear, a friend of mine had these amazing +22 dual katanas and there really wasn't a monetary value they were worth so much.. ppl rarely went beyond 5. He would get drunk or high and gamble his ass off and was lucky.. until he wasnt and they went poof. Most gear you just took to +3 and left.

What F2P has brought to it is being able to buy those advantages like the lower chance of fail.. but they in no way started it.

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

11/29/13 3:43:53 PM#31
Failure to achieve a desired goal when attempting to do something based upon a character's ability isn't random. It is probability-based, with modifiers based on aptitude and any number of other environmental or player-input based elements made possible (or not) by the system mechanics particular to the game being played. The RNG is just an admittedly imperfect way to simulate a potentially infinite number of variables that could affect the level of success of such an action.

Obviously, probabilities of things like boss drops and chest contents are conventionally "purely" randomized, and these things can be frustrating whether as a sense of futility/wasted time or as an affront to logic. It is possible to avoid this through design elements. Crafter-driven games could focus instead on material drops, which could provide for both increased believability and for mechanical cohesiveness and usability. A rare material that can be used for creating multiple things is ostensibly useful to a wide range of different character types, for example. What lizardbones suggested about making drops relevant in a lore/rp sense makes a lot of sense to me.

At the end of the day, though, I like a bit of chaos :)

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4741

11/29/13 4:14:06 PM#32

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Scot Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.
Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too. I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ? You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for. If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.

 

Sure the OP mentioned all kinds of random gameplay, but I just talked about lockbox gambling. Where did I mention RNG in other gameplay? You are going on as if I said randomness was invented by the F2P finance model, just read what I posted. And why we are on that like I said its about Cash Shops which are in P2P/B2P MMOs. That means its across the financial models.

You made a fair point about P2P having time as gambling, in that we pay for time so anything that is random is a gamble. I don't see it that way, raiding does not involve gambling until you make people pay for the chance of a good item. Flat fees for all gameplay do not do that. 

So think of this as a F2P nerd rant if you want, regardless of what I actually post. I do not hide where I stand this is "as usual" for me. I don't think I need that in a signature box mind you and nor do you.

But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?

That's my reply to Vengesunsoar and Lokifeit as well to save a massive wall of text.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 9953

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

11/29/13 4:33:01 PM#33


Originally posted by udon
There are two different discussion points here.  One is the idea of randomness in-game and the other is randomness in the cash shop.  I don't really mind randomness in the game as it adds a bit of flavor and longevity to the game.  I remember when SWTOR first came out and my entire raid force was geared out in a matter of a couple weeks.  It really sucked the life out of the game having individual drops.  The only way that would work is if they made progression much and I mean much deeper.

The other form of randomness in the cash shop I hate and tend to avoid games that do it.  It's not that I have a issue with gambling per say but those boxes are little more than ways to charge in some cases $100 or more for a single item without having to put a price tag on it.  Plus they have this way of consuming the best (subjective term for sure) content either stat or appearance wise in the game again because they can command such huge price tags on them and those guaranteed crafting success items that some games sell are just P2W in it's most base form.




Is the randomness in a game (p2p) all that different from randomness in the cash shop (f2p)? A player pays a sub for a game, and has a random chance of getting X drops. A play plays a game for free, but pays money for a random chance of getting X drops. The difference is when the player is paying to play the game, and how much they can affect the drop rate with what they are paying. In both cases the player is paying money to the developer to get drops based on the developer determined drop rate that is relative to the amount of money a player is paying.

I do not like the idea of crafting having a chance to be successful, unless the player can affect that chance and slide it to a guarantee of success. Ditto for enchanting, but in my mind, enchanting is just a form of crafting.

Drop rates of items are something else entirely. Random drops are something that's been around for a long time. My preference would be for the drops to be something from the thing dropping it though. Helmets should not drop from wolves or rats unless they are big enough to have eaten something that wears a helmet. The helmet should need some repair as well, since it's been digesting for awhile.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4329

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/29/13 4:38:26 PM#34
Originally posted by Scot

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Scot Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.
Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too. I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ? You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for. If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.

 

Sure the OP mentioned all kinds of random gameplay, but I just talked about lockbox gambling. Where did I mention RNG in other gameplay? You are going on as if I said randomness was invented by the F2P finance model, just read what I posted. And why we are on that like I said its about Cash Shops which are in P2P/B2P MMOs. That means its across the financial models.

You made a fair point about P2P having time as gambling, in that we pay for time so anything that is random is a gamble. I don't see it that way, raiding does not involve gambling until you make people pay for the chance of a good item. Flat fees for all gameplay do not do that. 

So think of this as a F2P nerd rant if you want, regardless of what I actually post. I do not hide where I stand this is "as usual" for me. I don't think I need that in a signature box mind you and nor do you.

But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?

That's my reply to Vengesunsoar and Lokifeit as well to save a massive wall of text.

 

The topic was about RNG.

You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.

They are different. 

If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/29/13 4:46:54 PM#35

 So I'm going to go ahead and start off by saying anyone who thinks that gambling in F2P MMO games is "new" in anyway is an idiot. Randomization in games whether it be singleplayer or multiplayer has always existed. Randomization prolongs the life of a game and it's also what makes some classic games great such as Diablo, Diablo 2, and titans quest.

 Randomization/gambling gives many customers/players the thrill of winning when they receive rare items from kills. Unfortunately more companies are simply using randomization to make money off of a customers gambling habit. In fact companies in Europe are taking a lot of heat from the courts for exploiting these customers habits. If people truly feel that the fortune boxes in video games are excessively bad you could easily have them removed. Simply back up your stance on it with how these companies are targeting very young audiences. You can easily find information of people young/old spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars on these games.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/29/13 4:47:33 PM#36
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Scot

 


Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Scot Gambling is the newish F2P disease. And when I say F2P that's just where it started, any MMO with a cash shop be it P2P, hybrid or B2P MMOs are very likely to catch it as well.
Yes....f2p is where random came from. I never once spent months raiding content for a drop in a p2p game. Your opinion isn't crazy biased at all.
Didn't you get the memo? Apparently everything from floods to AIDS is the fault of F2P and the "new generation".
Did I say F2P is where random came from? No. I don't remember paying in a cash shop to be entitled to use the drop I got in a P2P game. This is not about randomness its about gambling for locked boxes, you might as well say this is about Monopoly as that has rolling dice which is random too. I got the memo, here is one for you. Is there anything about F2P MMO's you do not like? Or are they the most perfect form of entertainment the world has ever seen? For that matter is there anything about MMO's, regardless of financial model that you feel is not fabulous? Or are we just going to get cheerleading from you as usual? And it would be interesting if you could recommend a F2P MMO for me to play, as surely you must be playing one?
Oh come on, if we're going to talk " as usual " with regards to posting what will we find in your history scot ? You say this is only about lock boxes, but it's not. The OP is clearly giving examples of RNG in mmos and how they get used as " content" Paying a per use free in a cash shop is more expensive but it isn't totally different than paying a flat fee with a raid lock out and a random loot table. They're both shitty game mechanics designed to milk the player under the guise of "content " People just don't seem to notice as much when it's their time they're being milked for. If you want to nerd rage about f2p go for it. I don't think they're the be all end all of pay models. But RNG is not unique to them.

 

Sure the OP mentioned all kinds of random gameplay, but I just talked about lockbox gambling. Where did I mention RNG in other gameplay? You are going on as if I said randomness was invented by the F2P finance model, just read what I posted. And why we are on that like I said its about Cash Shops which are in P2P/B2P MMOs. That means its across the financial models.

You made a fair point about P2P having time as gambling, in that we pay for time so anything that is random is a gamble. I don't see it that way, raiding does not involve gambling until you make people pay for the chance of a good item. Flat fees for all gameplay do not do that. 

So think of this as a F2P nerd rant if you want, regardless of what I actually post. I do not hide where I stand this is "as usual" for me. I don't think I need that in a signature box mind you and nor do you.

But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?

That's my reply to Vengesunsoar and Lokifeit as well to save a massive wall of text.

 

The topic was about RNG.

You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.

They are different. 

If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread. 

 Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  DamonVile

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3644

11/29/13 5:19:16 PM#37
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Scot

 But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?

 

 

The topic was about RNG.

You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.

They are different. 

If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread. 

 Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.

He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5164

Opportunist

11/29/13 5:35:11 PM#38
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Scot
Gambling is the newish F2P disease.

Seriously? UO, SWG, EVE, EQ, AC... none of them had the stuff the OP is talking about - random loot, random drops or random change of failure at crafting?  Is this revisionist history or just a really polarized view blanketing every aspect of MMOs for you?

My guess is revisionist history. Every mob in Lineage was a "loot box". The whole purpose of killing mobs in that game, especially since there were essentially no quests, was to open the mob loot box. Every mob contained the following:

1. A static xp amount with a relative level modifier

2. A random amount of cash within a range (e.g.: 10 - 20 gold)

3. A random number of drops from a predefined loot table. For example, this "tough" bugbear mob would contain at least 3 drops of which one would be of at least high quality or better.

That is how most every lockbox I see described works. The developers would calculate how much reward these lockboxes would add to the game world in a given period and how tough it was to open them (ie: defeat the mob). They could count on x number of months of sub revenue added to the game based on mob toughness, loot tables, and the xp leveling curve.

So Scot was right until he revised history to further his anti-f2p agenda.

I would say that even though the random loot carrot seems horrible it's what drives a lot of our mmo play. We like getting goodies and gambling for the chance to win big. If it was all predictable the games would be a lot more boring as well. Some element of chance and surprise keeps it interesting. It's all about balance.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4741

11/29/13 5:36:21 PM#39
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Scot

 But my question remains to any who have come on this thread to support F2P (cash shop) gambling as I see it. What F2P MMO are you playing and is there anything about F2P MMOs that you are not happy with. Anything at all?

 

 

The topic was about RNG.

You replied talking about f2p and lockboxes.

They are different. 

If you want to talk about f2p start a new thread. 

 Actually RNG and Lockboxes are identical. Also don't tell someone to make a different thread especially when the title of the article states random and gamble.

He's just setting up to rant about f2p, he had no interest in the actual topic of the thread. That's why venge told him to start a new thread.

I choose to zero in on what I thought was the worse aspect of what the OP brought up, the gambling element of chest boxes. The rest of what he said is not a concern to me, in fact I agree with those of you that it has always been there. So I am hardly going to go on about that am I? If that's an off topic rant, you are just making it up as you go along.

  greenreen

Elite Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1375

11/29/13 5:39:46 PM#40

One of them I don't participate in so that it can't bother me, buying random boxes of goodies. Since certain pay models participate more in that by basing my initial choice on that I can avoid many of them.

Random numbers ohhh such pleasure and pain. I'm reminded of raiding and waiting on drops, getting a skill crit during fighting or even catching a rare fish.

I would clump randomness inside of loss of control of the character. If you get enough bad RNG days you start to wonder if you have ticked off a dev disguised as a player or if the whole system is downright broken.

The reason it is comparable to loss of character control is that if you do something 1000 times and there is no reward that comes you can get feisty when someone else gets the item on much fewer tries. You are out of control of the situation because it seems that no matter how much effort you put into it, the results don't seem to change.

In another way I see RNG as a way to expose real life. Sometimes good people don't get rewards and sometimes bad people don't get punished. That randomness is scary if you like to think there is a checks and balances system behind the scenes which you could name various ways.

If you look at it as representative of the world, it may be closer to reality than we might admit but yes, it does become maddening if you can't seem to get what you desire when you consider your effort beyond what it should have taken.

 

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