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LFGame  » A thinking man's mmorpg

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69 posts found
  Jacxolope

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/13
Posts: 743

11/29/13 7:01:04 AM#41

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSuh-QeJwlA

 

Dominions 3.

-This is NOT an MMORPG, nor even an MMO at all- But its what you want.

 

Op, I feel much the same as you and someone turned me on to this game- It has Multi-player (we generally 'play by email' with a pretty huge group) and I have games going which have lasted more than a year.

 

FIRST- This is one of the most complex strategy games I have ever seen. hands down. I have NOT even close to mastered the game and am still 'getting' the basics over a year after starting- BUT its simple enough to 'pick up and play' if you take the time to gloss over the rules and perhaps watch a tutorial or two.

SECOND- This game was made with huge , long lasting multiplayer games in mind. 'Single Player' is more of a way to learn the game. This means the TOOLS are there for every complex action you could possibly want to do in a multi-player enviornment. PLUS the 'political' stuff which goes on via private email- The deals, trades and double crosses- man, good stuff.

 

Give it a whirl if you want an ubur-complex multi player, strategy experience.... Or not. =P

 

EDIT- Also keep in mind- After the 'early game' (which moves quickly) you can literally spend HOURS taking 1 turn- The micro-managment aspect can be a deep and complex as you wish...And not in a 'boring' way where you are constantly clicking the same things every turn. The strategy aspect is so well designed that controling your empire is a joy- But you do not nesasarily have to delve that deeply into the mechanics if you do not wish.

Also- No "P2W" to get an advantage or anything else. No subscription (buy the game and its yours) Mod support (multiplayer games need to agree on the Mods used so they synche) .

 

Game is seriously amazing if you can get into it.

 

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 9:10:40 AM#42
Originally posted by SomeHuman
 

Oh, and I put another hour into TSW.  It was just more of collection quests with bread crumbs.  I saw one dynamic event with a Golden man that turned into a golem.  The combat just got easier as I plunked down my AP and got some more skills.  I still didn't encounter any mysteries or puzzles.  It makes me wonder, "Shouldn't a game reveal it's essence to the gamer in the first hours?"  The TSW fans keep saying just put more time into it.  I'd compare it to a novel.  If I'm not into it after the first 50 pages, there is little for me to find there or the author didn't do his/her job.  Wouldn't it be smart to make the player solve a puzzle or discover a secret in the first scenario of this game?  It is a beautiful game.  It has a level of maturity I like.  It has a good story.  I also like its skill tree.  Anywho... rambling ending.

Yeah, one thing about all MMOs that I do agree with you on is the idea of clearly marked questgivers and map pointers.  In TSWs case, the investigations are the missions with the little laptop icon on -- there are 3 types (action, investigation and sabotage).

It's a failing of the genre, really.  All NPCs could potentially hand you a quest -- why not bake all this lore and mystery into the world itself, and let us discover it instead of pasting all these signposts around?  I liked the old school Ultima (I-VII) style of having the players talk to the NPCs and using our heads to figure out the story.

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2127

11/29/13 9:23:14 AM#43
Why not...because a website walkthrough will be out in a day...so what is the point.
  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 9:27:02 AM#44
Originally posted by Horusra
Why not...because a website walkthrough will be out in a day...so what is the point.

Are you playing a game or a walkthrough site?

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2127

11/29/13 9:30:10 AM#45
In todays world you live in a dream if you think the majority of people will spend 10 minuted ingame searching over 1 googling. Look at eve with guides, programs to plan training, and databases.
  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 9:33:25 AM#46
Originally posted by Horusra
In todays world you live in a dream if you think the majority of people will spend 10 minuted ingame searching over 1 googling. Look at eve with guides, programs to plan training, and databases.

And yet everyday, people complete the NYT crossword puzzle without looking up answers on wikipedia.  They like the challenge of figuring it out.  Just because people like to cheat, doesn't mean we should stop making games that challenge people's brains.  Nothing wrong with a guide, and looking stuff up, but that doesn't mean developers should stop giving us interesting puzzles.

  aspekx

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2151

11/29/13 9:37:26 AM#47
its another SPRPG, but any of the X-series of space strategy / space sim games might interest you as well.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2127

11/29/13 9:45:08 AM#48
The problem is does the number that wants the puzzle out number those that want the fastest and best (relative term) to the top. Crossword costs little to make and maintain compaired to an mmo.
  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 9:52:01 AM#49
Originally posted by Horusra
The problem is does the number that wants the puzzle out number those that want the fastest and best (relative term) to the top. Crossword costs little to make and maintain compaired to an mmo.

That's a development challenge though.   I don't see how making signposts and questgivers all over the place adds longevity to your game.  If you bake it in, it takes longer for players to figure it out and post the walkthroughs.  I'd argue that it will boost value and longevity to bake your scenarios into the world.  And any dev worth his salt would be able to build a system that is easy and inexpensive to maintain and update.

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2127

11/29/13 9:59:51 AM#50
I am not saying your idea is bad. In this current market flash in the pan is what is being made. Long and difficult might make good niche but do not demand a lot upfront in way of graphics and development. Pacman beat out chess.
  MMOman101

Novice Member

Joined: 2/05/08
Posts: 1192

11/29/13 10:03:37 AM#51
Originally posted by VastoHorde

Try Vanguard. The Secret World is just another themepark.

 

https://www.vanguardthegame.com/home

^this.

If you are looking for an MMO where you have to pay attention and might die in PVE try Vanguard.  It is probably the hardest PVE game on the market, that I have tried.  There are a ton of PVP games that can be difficult, but many of them are broken at their core. 

  Broverpowerd

Novice Member

Joined: 4/18/13
Posts: 29

11/29/13 10:04:31 AM#52
Unfortunately, WoW is what you want. I am prepared for me to get all-out flamed, but a fact of the matter is this: Out of the 7 million or 8 million or whatever subscribers, less than half of a percent complete relevant raid content before a patch is rolled out to nerf it to the floor. An even smaller fraction complete any of the heroic raid content whatsoever until they outgear it so much its not challenging. On a similar note, pet battles are thinking to the max. I hate to say it, but when I was 11 I played pokemon, and if you really look at it there is so much min/maxing its unbelievable. Same with pet battles. Going even further, players who PvP really must think the most. Watch a stream of PvP. If you want to "think", watch all of the people who are actually relevant in ARENAs and rated battlegrounds. It's astounding how much they know about every class, as well as managing cooldowns, and being completely aware of their team mates. Seriously, people can flame WoW all they want, but the reality is, it is the best MMORPG out there, most content, most to do, most aspects, cheap (black friday 75% off), and $15 a month sub. Plus with all of the hustle and bustle over the new expansion, you can guarantee the subs will skyrocket. You also know the game isn't going anywhere anytime soon. Sorry, I have a love/hate relationship with WoW, but there's a reason people keep coming back. It is the simplest most involved game ever. *Equips flame-retardant shield"
  Xthos

Elite Member

Joined: 4/18/10
Posts: 2627

11/29/13 10:18:00 AM#53
Farmville, where to plant that stuff?  Who to bug for free things? 
  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 10:18:20 AM#54
Originally posted by Horusra
I am not saying your idea is bad. In this current market flash in the pan is what is being made. Long and difficult might make good niche but do not demand a lot upfront in way of graphics and development. Pacman beat out chess.

Although chess is still around and people have moved on from Pacman.  ;)  It's certainly a design choice, and it would need to be embraced wholeheartedly.  Skyrim actually follows the model I am thinking of, and it's been pretty damn popular -- and not necessarily "long and difficult."  It's the difference between placing signposts and markers all over the place, and simply letting the world and story and puzzles reveal themselves through natural travel and exploration.

  Raquis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 303

11/29/13 10:23:03 AM#55

shroud of the avatar end of next year,alpha and beta soon.

you will have to think there.but its a mo

  Horusra

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/26/05
Posts: 2127

11/29/13 11:03:13 AM#56
Skyrim did not release till a guide book was out for it. Lot of places sold it as a bundle.
  Nephaerius

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1451

11/29/13 11:11:19 AM#57

I know you said TSW didn't hook you but as someone else that wasn't immediately hooked either I felt this was worth mentioning.  TSW took me many tries to actually get into but when I finally did it was quite rewarding.  That being said one shouldn't have to repeatedly attempt to get into a game it should either hook you or not, but hey.... Regardless the quests really are unique with many of them requiring at least some deduction and problem solving.  There are your standard quests which provide quest markers but their are numerous amounts that rely on your own savy and intelligence to figure out. 

TSW might be worth another shot.  Trying new weapon/power combos eventually helped me to find something I enjoyed.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  udon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/23/07
Posts: 1598

11/29/13 11:34:17 AM#58
Originally posted by SomeHuman
  • I played through about three hours of the TSW trial and was unenthralled.  Mash button, don't die, level, level, collect supplies, select skills, find pieces of paper, mash button,  ugh... (pretty and mature, but boring as hell)
  • I'm looking for a game that requires a bit of strategy (similar to a card combat game) but also has the element of exploration and discovery.  It needs to have some difficulty.  
  • I'm hoping there is something I've over-looked or have forgotten about.  I've been through most of them out there.

When you say thinking man's MMO do you mean reasoning or reacting?  TSW is a game that requires people to think about the skills and stats they put on there action bar and gear but once you hit that first attack you only have 1 of 8 buttons you can push plus movement so your choices drop significantly.  It's a game where you are required to plan out before you attack how best to use the limited number of actions you have in combat.  

On the other end of the spectrum I have 7 bars of 10 abilities each on my Dirge in EQ2 of which probably 4 of them are active in combat abilities with 2 of them being things I use all the time.  That's 20 abilities from second to second I have to choose between with 20 or so more that I might use as the need arises.  There is much less up front planning since everything is in front of me but it requires much more second to second decision making during combat on how best to use the time slots I have for the situation I am in.

These are two examples of very different game play.  Both have their strength and weaknesses and I enjoy both for different reasons.

Then of course there are the huge crop of games that have limited action bar's and little to no preplanning for skill placement.  Those games tend to not last very long on my computer although some of them can be a fun distraction for a month or so.

 

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 11:39:21 AM#59
Originally posted by udon
Originally posted by SomeHuman
  • I played through about three hours of the TSW trial and was unenthralled.  Mash button, don't die, level, level, collect supplies, select skills, find pieces of paper, mash button,  ugh... (pretty and mature, but boring as hell)
  • I'm looking for a game that requires a bit of strategy (similar to a card combat game) but also has the element of exploration and discovery.  It needs to have some difficulty.  
  • I'm hoping there is something I've over-looked or have forgotten about.  I've been through most of them out there.

 It's a game where you are required to plan out before you attack how best to use the limited number of actions you have in combat.  

To be fair, it's really not necessary to plan out anything in the first zone.  It's not until you get into the more difficult areas in Savage Coast and Blue Mountains where thinking about your build becomes truly necessary.  The folks who don't have patience to get to that point of the game could easily assume that there's nothing more to combat.

  Ortwig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/20/12
Posts: 1044

11/29/13 11:40:51 AM#60
Originally posted by Horusra
Skyrim did not release till a guide book was out for it. Lot of places sold it as a bundle.

Sure and that's fine; perfectly okay to have guides and hint/answer books and websites...  But the game should be playable without them.

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