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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Another critique of the genre from a vet

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70 posts found
  Foomerang

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

11/25/13 7:46:41 PM#21

I felt like that at one point. Maybe I will again. I hope not. I try to enjoy mmos as best I can for what they are. I love to geek out on them, talk about the pros and cons etc.

It is easy to become cynical over time. Especially with so much time invested. Its a dangerous path. Obviously these forums do not help. They are ripe with negativity and you can be affirmed of your negative views any time you like. It just reinforces bad dispositions and I see a lot of people that seem generally unhappy about not just games but other subjects that get brought up here.

Anyway, I hope we all can first be content with ourselves and the rest hopefully will follow. thanks :)

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 3729

11/25/13 7:54:55 PM#22
Originally posted by crazzyjake

I'll get straight to the point, and this is only from my point of view and personal experience in many games old and new. I know we all have varying opinions about where our beloved genre goes from here and I am only expressing what I think is missing in the games of today and those on the horizon. 

First and foremost in my mind is the complete shift from social to solo content. I understand that creating a game with a large amount of soloable content brings in another audience for the devs and thus a large market and more money. But it completely detracts from the ONE aspect that is supposed to be at the heart of these games. Should there be soloable content? absolutely. Should you be able to accomplish the majority of a games content solo, as well as progress just as fast or FASTER by doing only soloable content? Absolutely freaking not! These games used to be designed with the thought that grouping was not only faster for progression but MANDATORY for it. I have read in other places that there is actually debate about if a game should force grouping on players, in my mind it should be built into the framework for all but the most mundane hunting and questing. And I am not referring to the kind of grouping where 10 players come upon a mob, with no need to group or communicate and take down said mob and magically everyone gets exp (zerging is killing our games people). Grouping means organization and for gods sakes SOCIAL INTERACTION! In my opinion this is one of the main reasons why population numbers flame out so soon after release for these new games. Content brings people to a game but the relationships you develop and the time you invest in those relationships is what keeps a community going.

Another huge issue I have with todays direction of MMO's is the move towards vast amounts of instancing. It used to be the goal of devs was to make a "world" not a game. I know there are technology issues with this and I don't mind a minimal amount of zoning for a world for stabilization reasons, but the zones need to be LARGE, not tiny as many games have them now. And dungeon finders that magically pair you up with others and whisk you away to a dungeon located nowhere near your character is ridiculous and promotes the kind of competitive gameplay that eats away at a games community instead of promoting challenging cooperative gameplay as I believe is intended by places like dungeons. I understand the potential problems with getting rid of all dungeon instancing, mob camping and such, so as with overland zones I am not completely opposed to instancing certain parts of these places, maybe boss mobs should be instanced and on a timer. I don't know the best answer that will satisfy everyone but I do know the current state of queueing for a dungeon finder to pair me with other players whom I don't even need to speak with is plain awful, it may be more instant gratification but if you are going to be running a dungeon or camping in one it should take time and organization.

Lastly, it seems to me that the newer games are severally lacking in variety in terms of character customization. I am not talking purely aesthetically but gameplay. The new breed of games where one character can be all the classes and switch between them all? how am I supposed to feel unique like that. Or games where there may be a handful of classes, many of which serve the same purpose with similar mechanics but just with different weapons? I know people will complain about being pigeon holed into one role and that may get "boring" but I disagree. Having many classes and roles, some not even combat related, that only one character can focus on makes you a specialist. It gives you pride in how well you can play your class. Having one spell caster that can do single target dmg, group dmg, dot dmg, and can crowd control means that you have effectively made everyone who would pick to specialize in one of those diciplines into the same class. I would also like to know what happened to non combat utility? movement buffs, travel buffs ect, or just skills and spells that made you look or sound different for a while, fun things that DIFFERENTIATE you from everyone else. The move towards the middle where everyone can do everything makes it so the only way to seem different at all is to grind away at a gear treadmill that all leads to the same place for everyone.

I also take minor issue with the prevalence of "fast travel", you should have to work a bit harder to be magically teleported around the world. Little to no death penalty irks me also but I can't figure out a good way to fix that besides a massive gold or time sink, which I am sure doesn't appeal to most. And for final thought, I hate how ungodly fast progression is in games today, things I have mentioned already like solo content rewarding as well as group content, and fast travel are certainly direct causes of this but all of these changes to make our games casual is, in my opinion, killing our genre.

Just my opinion folks, sorry for the long post, thanks for reading. Unfortunately, I don't see any of these tendencies changing for the better anytime soon, in fact I am not even aware of any game on the horizon that addresses them.

So basically :

1. Group oriented content

2. Non-instanced open world gameplay

3. Unique class roles and a large variety of builds (from many skills)

4. Limited fast travel

 

I think you will like ArcheAge a lot, hopefully you enjoy group PvP

 

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 296

11/25/13 8:35:58 PM#23

now i wonder why we have to "teach" those developer about how to make MMORPGs .

When talk to them don't work , let time and failure teach them.

 

Also , what i want to see now wasn't they change they mind and created a properly MMORPG .

What i want to see now is tools that allow people who know little or don't know programming created they own MMOs instead waiting for someone else.

  salaciouscrumbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 91

11/25/13 8:37:58 PM#24
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Yamota

Why should customers "adapt" to anything? Corporations need to meet the demand, not dictate to customers what they want.

 

Adapt to fact there is not enough demand to create a supply for a product of their desires.

Reading comprehension.

 

Not enough demand lol.

 

Star Citizen: realistic graphics, harsh death penalty, open world, incentive for social cooperation. 300,000 pre-orders. Eat your hat.

  salaciouscrumbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 91

11/25/13 8:43:05 PM#25
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Whiplash931
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Boneserino

Yup todays games have all of these problems. 


 

Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.

................No offense but you are an idiot. What he is saying is exactly whats wrong with MMOs these days, not a matter of "adapting". There is no sense of community in MMOs anymore. They are way too easy with little risk for anything you do. People don't play this genre anymore to be immersed in a world and to have fun with your friends, it's just a race to see who can "beat" the game the fastest and get the best gear. You don't need anyone to be successful anymore you can just join a queue for a raid or a dungeon and gear up easy. 

 

For the MMO gamers who started with WoW I feel sorry for you. You guys never got a chance to really experience what an MMO truly can offer. All we are anymore to these game makers is just mouse in a maze. Sure we get to the end of the maze only to end up in yet another maze time and time again. 

You call him an idiot, but you don't really understand what a "player problem" is. You list things you think are wrong like it's a fact...what if the people playing don't want those things and go to the games that offer what they do want. Maybe that's how the genre got to where it is....which is exactly what that " idiot" said.

 

Shouldn't be named calling, I agree. However, it's pretty obvious that the genre got to where it is because of publisher consolidation, not because there is no market for this type of MMO. Publishers don't want to make a game that won't earn WoW numbers. They are obsessed, obsessed with pulling a "WoW".

The irony is that if they just made a solid game that catered to a niche audience, it would have a chance to explode. Like Star Citizen. They will realize, but it will be too late for them. Some independent developer will get there first. And it's well deserved. EA and all these other moronic publishers deserve to burn and die in a fiery death with their failed games.

 

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2702

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

11/25/13 8:51:26 PM#26


Originally posted by Yamota

Originally posted by Gdemami

Originally posted by Boneserino
Yup todays games have all of these problems.

Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.

Why should customers "adapt" to anything? Corporations need to meet the demand, not dictate to customers what they want.

BINGO!

If ANY business wants my money, they will give me what *I* want, not expect me to "adapt" to what they produce. If not, I will gladly keep my money.

I don't buy a sedan when I want a pick up.
I don't buy brussel sprouts.
I don't buy women's lingerie. Or dresses. (really! I don't!)
I don't buy First Person Shooter games anymore, though I did buy Doom.
I don't buy Apple computers.

However, in the OP's post, I disagree that grouping is a social activity vs. soloing. When I am in a group, I am social with 5-40 other people, if they take the time to even be social. When I am NOT in a group, I am social with anyone else I come across in the game.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

11/25/13 9:01:43 PM#27
Originally posted by crazzyjake

I'll get straight to the point,

First and foremost in my mind is the complete shift from social to solo content.

 

I will also get straight to the point,

Your post was based on a false premise.

I will start with Ultima Online, only because previous MMO's didn't have the label. UO was almost 100% soloable. Was easy to forget that wasn't it?

Asherons Call 1. Almost entirely 100% soloable short of a few major bosses and elite dungeons.

Anarchy Online, all but the dungeons were soloable.

SWG, that's right...until they nerfed the ability to have two At-at's out at once and three pets out it was almost 100% soloable...and even after they did, it was still almost entirely soloable.

There you go, 4 out of the first 10 MMORPGs, very very solo friendly.

It isn't that games are becoming more solo friendly, its that PEOPLE are becoming more solo friendly and so do it. Guess that is what happens when guilds turn games into a damn job with raid schedules and gear reqs...took the fun right out of PLAYING and instead made raiding a freaking profession, that plus always waiting waiting waiting for all group members to get their crap together.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

11/25/13 10:35:57 PM#28

Jake, I feel largely the same on all accounts, especially character building/diversity. On the topic of solo content, while I agree that player-to-system interaction is inferior to player-to-player interaction in regard to meaningful, complex gameplay, I think the ultimate culprit of the perceived shift in content to the former is something other than mere developer mandate. There are two issues I would like to discuss thusly.

The first is the ubiquitous nature of modern social networks. In this genre's infancy, there was plenty of solo content available, as the poster above illustrated so succinctly and bluntly. However, the ability to interact with others on the scale and in the fashion that mmorpgs offer was something of a novelty, and grouping up may have been a kind of de facto gameplay style merely because it was possible. Sure, games like EQ encouraged it mechanically, but given the community that game had, I don't think it would have been so different even had they not done so. At least not early on.

These days everyone is connected to everyone and everything all the time. We live our lives connected to the networked world that has come to dominate our waking hours. Our online experience is like one big mmo

Just look at this forum for an example of that. 

In this environment, someone being introduced to mmorpgs might approach such a game model as merely an extension of their already networked social circles. The content itself and people playing in the same world become iterations of social content they are already accustomed to conceptually. MMOs are not viewed as virtual worlds but rather socially and thematically-networked content. Developers adapt to this rapidly growing market by providing content in this manner because, despite what they might prefer, their publishers are in the business to make money, after all. It's just good business, and us dinosaurs are left scratching our heads wondering where all the magic went while being told to adapt to what we view as an increasingly streamlined model of mmo gameplay driven by easily-consumable content.

Virtual worlds don't print money. Consumable content does. I hate it, but it's true. I am sure someone will cite examples of modern games that failed under this model, but flawed implementations do not alter the sensibility of a good business model.

The second issue I have is with system-enforced gameplay. I don't think forcing people to group is a good way to recapture the magic. We have to move forward, because that old magic was a product of its time, and the culture of gaming has changed dramatically and rapidly. Instead, perhaps we should be looking at WHY players should want to group in the first place in this day and age. "Because it's more gratifying" is not an acceptable answer given the wide variance of swiftly-adopted opinions on this topic.

My solution is danger. If the virtual world you are playing in is supposed to be dangerous, let's see some danger. That brings people together. Meaningful open-world PvP with little to no safe zones can do this, provided that the "meaningful" part is supported by smart gameplay mechanics. For those who don't like PvP, it's a bit trickier. Since a lack of PvP or inclusion of safe PvP offers no danger and thus no immediate need of grouping, the only option is system-encouraged grouping like EQ and FFXI employed (in differing ways.)

While I want to say that's all well and good, I can't help but think there is a better way, if for no other reason than fearing for the longevity of a game using such a model.

TL;DR I agree and feel your pain, but solo content isn't the problem in and of itself. Also, we are dinosaurs.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6341

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

11/25/13 11:23:51 PM#29
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Boneserino

Yup todays games have all of these problems. 


 

Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.

Haha so ruining a genre is something players should adapt to?Yep that makes lots of sense to me .../not.

Oh yes people that don't like hockey should be able to still play hockey but THEIR way,they should be able to drive cars around the rink and use shotguns,why not that is the exact same mentality.Then to those who actually enjoy the genre of hockey,we tell them ..."you need to adapt"  lmao ,ya ok ,i see the perfect logic in that.

You know what,i don't even want to play hocvkey at all,i want to press one button and get the end game score.But wait what about all those that actually want to play the game,what if they want to keep the integrity of the game in tact?Screw them,it is my money,i want to get what i want out of my game and i don't care what happens to the game to get it....they can adapt!

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  PerfArt

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 863

11/25/13 11:33:17 PM#30
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Boneserino

Yup todays games have all of these problems. 


 

Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.

Haha so ruining a genre is something players should adapt to?Yep that makes lots of sense to me .../not.

Oh yes people that don't like hockey should be able to still play hockey but THEIR way,they should be able to drive cars around the rink and use shotguns,why not that is the exact same mentality.Then to those who actually enjoy the genre of hockey,we tell them ..."you need to adapt"  lmao ,ya ok ,i see the perfect logic in that.

 

 

I don't even... why is this... what is life?

Words fail me in the face of this spiralling abyss of logic.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3629

11/26/13 2:06:43 AM#31
Originally posted by PerfArt
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Boneserino

Yup todays games have all of these problems. 


 

Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.

Haha so ruining a genre is something players should adapt to?Yep that makes lots of sense to me .../not.

Oh yes people that don't like hockey should be able to still play hockey but THEIR way,they should be able to drive cars around the rink and use shotguns,why not that is the exact same mentality.Then to those who actually enjoy the genre of hockey,we tell them ..."you need to adapt"  lmao ,ya ok ,i see the perfect logic in that.

 

 

I don't even... why is this... what is life?

Words fail me in the face of this spiralling abyss of logic.

 

What do you mean... the, If I don't like it no one can, is a very common argument here. I've been told if you say it often enough it becomes true. These people obviously believe it.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 4732

11/26/13 2:43:54 AM#32
Originally posted by Wizardry
Originally posted by Gdemami

 


Originally posted by Boneserino

Yup todays games have all of these problems. 


 

Those are not game problems, those are player problems. Players that either cannot adapt to changes or simple prefer something else then there is.

Haha so ruining a genre is something players should adapt to?Yep that makes lots of sense to me .../not.

Oh yes people that don't like hockey should be able to still play hockey but THEIR way,they should be able to drive cars around the rink and use shotguns,why not that is the exact same mentality.Then to those who actually enjoy the genre of hockey,we tell them ..."you need to adapt"  lmao ,ya ok ,i see the perfect logic in that.

You know what,i don't even want to play hocvkey at all,i want to press one button and get the end game score.But wait what about all those that actually want to play the game,what if they want to keep the integrity of the game in tact?Screw them,it is my money,i want to get what i want out of my game and i don't care what happens to the game to get it....they can adapt!

 

Old gamers were not expected to adapt, if they all left they would have been replaced by the player base the MMO industry was chasing at the time. PC RPG < PC MMO Gamers < Console solo < Social Media gamers. Each time they have looked to the bigger player base, they would love to keep the old one too, but the bigger one was the prize. They are still in the process of chasing Social Media gamers, but you can already see changes in MMOs made for that new larger player base.

 

  crack_fox

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 386

11/26/13 2:47:50 AM#33
Originally posted by jtcgs

It isn't that games are becoming more solo friendly, its that PEOPLE are becoming more solo friendly and so do it. Guess that is what happens when guilds turn games into a damn job with raid schedules and gear reqs...took the fun right out of PLAYING and instead made raiding a freaking profession, that plus always waiting waiting waiting for all group members to get their crap together.

FFS, can we please have a 'like' button? Even Massively has one. 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5158

Opportunist

11/26/13 3:16:22 AM#34
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by crazzyjake

I'll get straight to the point,

First and foremost in my mind is the complete shift from social to solo content.

I will also get straight to the point,

Your post was based on a false premise.

I will start with Ultima Online, only because previous MMO's didn't have the label. UO was almost 100% soloable. Was easy to forget that wasn't it?

Asherons Call 1. Almost entirely 100% soloable short of a few major bosses and elite dungeons.

Anarchy Online, all but the dungeons were soloable.

SWG, that's right...until they nerfed the ability to have two At-at's out at once and three pets out it was almost 100% soloable...and even after they did, it was still almost entirely soloable.

There you go, 4 out of the first 10 MMORPGs, very very solo friendly.

It isn't that games are becoming more solo friendly, its that PEOPLE are becoming more solo friendly and so do it. Guess that is what happens when guilds turn games into a damn job with raid schedules and gear reqs...took the fun right out of PLAYING and instead made raiding a freaking profession, that plus always waiting waiting waiting for all group members to get their crap together.

Don't forget Lineage. That makes 5. That too was entirely soloable, especially if you were good enough. It wasn't really until EQ and DAoC that this contrived one-dimensional forced grouping thing reared its ugly head.

Your last paragraph hits the nail square on the head. It's the main reason I'm in only 2 guilds (just GW2 and EQ2) and both of those are small family style.

It's not that the industry made people adapt. It's that the industry made changes that people asked for. Devs have just followed the money.

  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

11/26/13 3:35:57 AM#35
Originally posted by Whiplash931
Originally posted by Gdemami

 

................

 

For the MMO gamers who started with WoW I feel sorry for you.

 

 

don't feel sorry for me.

 

WoW was a great game pre-WotLK and I know enough about the ones that came before it to know that i did not miss anything that i did not get in the time that i did play WoW.

i would not have minded a little more of a death penalty, as death in WoW was just a ghost run, but aside from that, i did not miss out on the 'amazing social interaction' that you speak of. WoW was very social back in the day with a wide variety of people playing, and back then, most of them were talkative and fun.

all that WoW really lacked in those days was player housing. other than that, it was great, and i would not trade it being my first MMO.  this is not an insult to the older games, just a statement that i know what they offered and i KNOW that i did not miss out on anything special. (i research things avidly, and i know what i like).

 

keep your sympathy for things that ACTUALLY need it, like i don't know... real problems maybe?

 

  Zairu

Novice Member

Joined: 1/09/09
Posts: 493

Yes, this is a personal attack.

11/26/13 3:42:23 AM#36
Originally posted by jtcgs
 that is what happens when guilds turn games into a damn job with raid schedules and gear reqs...took the fun right out of PLAYING and instead made raiding a freaking profession, that plus always waiting waiting waiting for all group members to get their crap together.

 

this pretty much sums up why games shifted.

 

i will add, that i always hated voice chat in mmo's. i avoided raiding a lot because of how much i hated hearing people talk about their boring lives, and spewing racial jokes while waiting for one person to stop being afk. it was funny (not really) to see how badly a raid would do per 'wait period for member to return'. all that ever did was break immersion, the voice chat AND the waiting.

  observer

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/05
Posts: 2008

First came pride, then envy.

11/26/13 4:11:14 AM#37

Trying to define what is casual and solo-able is arbitray and futile, and this in turn, leads developers trying to appease to all types of gamers, which usually creates a bad experience, because they try to create content, and balance it, for solo players and group players, and also pvp players.  This is basically the only genre in gaming that tries to do this.

  • It's not possible to guage "when, how, and where", gamers will spend their time when they log in. 
  • Will they stay on for an hour or less?  or 5 hours or more?
  • How much of that time will they pvp?  or quest?  or just socialize with friends?  rp? etc.

As you can see, it's impossible to please everyone, because it's impossible to know what they want, or when they want it.

It's easy to critique the developers, that the content one desires, is being neglected, but there are literally millions of other people who differ in their desires.

The developers have to balance several target-audiences, which is never an easy thing to do.

OP mentions instancing & mandatory forced-grouping, but fails to see how that worked out in the past.

Any veteran will point out the negatives of these two aspects in MMOs.

  • latency/lag
  • disconnections
  • random leaves
  • wasting time waiting on randoms (10 min. 15 min. 1 hour. 4 hours?, etc.)
  • waiting on friends/guildies
  • etc.
...and these negatives are just for grouping, in non-instanced & instanced content.
This leads on to the next subject, and that is the mythical claim that "socialization" is ruined.
 
Socializing was never ruined.  It's always been there (guild chat & websites, world channels, friends list, vent, etc.).  The only reason people socialized in one spot was because back in EQ1 (and others), people literally had to wait in one spot for a mob to spawn.  They had to literally wait for 12+ hours, in fear of some other guild stealing it.  I'm sorry, but i'm going to be blunt, and say that is just wasting one's life away.  MMO design has changed for the better in this aspect.
 
If someone really wants to socialze that way, there is always Second Life or old-fashioned IRC.
  Jean-Luc_Picard

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2393

There... are... four... lights!

11/26/13 4:11:34 AM#38

Another of those "grouping = socialization, solo = antisocial" threads.

As a much older "vet", I totally disagree with that notion, as I already said in the dozens of threads on that topic.

Originally posted by observer

The only reason people socialized in one spot was because back in EQ1 (and others), people literally had to wait in one spot for a mob to spawn.  They had to literally wait for 12+ hours, in fear of some other guild stealing it.  I'm sorry, but i'm going to be blunt, and say that is just wasting one's life away.  MMO design has changed for the better in this aspect.

Well said!

And you weren't blunt, you were quite nice actually.

Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Pynda

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/20/04
Posts: 666

11/26/13 5:37:19 AM#39

Disagree - I'm flat out against 'forced grouping'. And forced PvP for that matter, too. When designers start telling me what I must like, think, and do in a MMORPG I rebel (that is, I quit). Because I like doing lots of different things - and doing both soloing and grouping. But I am for features that encourage grouping in a non immersion breaking manner. For example having lots of group content (and PvP content), and having high quality guild tools. But something I dislike are group finders. And especially so when they are 'cross realm'. If you want to find a pickup group for a specific dungeon, I say plop down a little tavern near it somewhere. And let people meet up and socialize there. I realize that this is not as convenient as a group finder, but...


Agree - Not allowing people to play all classes/skills on one character. I just gave a spiel about freedom in games, but this is an increasingly common 'feature' which bugs the hell out of me. And again I suppose, from an immersion breaking perspective. It's just so darn fake. And I enjoy thinking closely about my character build (because it really should matter), committing to it, and then forming some kind of weird emotional attachment. So once more, convenience is not always a good thing in my book.


(I was surprised and pleased to see that a lot of other people in this thread seemed to feel the same way about this.)

  crazzyjake

Novice Member

Joined: 7/25/03
Posts: 14

 
OP  11/26/13 8:26:47 AM#40

Thanks for all the spirited discussion guys, and keeping the post from degrading into typical trolling and spam that many seem to devolve into.

Just to clarify a few things about my original post. I still firmly believe that a games build can directly drive its community  in terms of group vs soloable content In other words, if a game puts a focus on group content it will help breed a community that values a social and cooperative environment that will permiate through all aspects of a game. I didn't mean to imply that "all" content should be only for groups. I just think progression should be much quicker and efficient by tackling content with a group. I would look at it as more of a rewarding system for those in groups rather than one that is seen as a punishment for those that prefer to play solo. I guess it all depends on your point of view, but the discrepancy should be very apparent in terms of progression. We already have some forced grouping in most games for dungeons and raids, indeed most end game content. I just want it throughout the game as well.

I know that devs are just responding to the overwhelming success of more casual games like WoW but the pendulum has just swung too far. The vast majority of the games since Wow could be seen as less than a success, with huge drops in subscription numbers and then the inevitable move to F2P. I believe this is directly due to the huge increase in progression speed and the focus on soloable content. Devs are putting all these action RPG elements into MMO's and people are sutprised when we play them like action games, bulldozing content and leaving after we "beat" the game.

Just to respond to the notion that I should go play one of the old school titles that has all the things I am looking for. It is hard to get past the downright awful looking graphics of the older games, not to mention the near desolate wasteland they have become, with empty servers and no new players to go through the leveling progression with.

If anyone has any suggestions for upcoming games or recently released games I should be looking into feel free to suggest them. I was playing FF XIV ARR. It had a great old school feel to it but the crazy zerg fest in terms of progression as well as the notion that every character can be every class, making no one unique whatsoever really turned me off.

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