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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Should the Indies just give up already?

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62 posts found
  mari3k

Novice Member

Joined: 2/23/13
Posts: 146

11/24/13 1:01:35 PM#21

Making a good mmo is not an easy thing. most indies are just not good enough to make a solid game.

There are things that are very complicated to develop like,

- performance

- hack security

And without that the game will fail. Look at Drakfall, what a mess of a game...

 

Indie devs should concentrate to make single player turn based games. They are easy to make and will sell well.

Step in the arena and break the wall down

  Drakynn

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 2051

11/24/13 1:02:01 PM#22

Indies have been successful because they either successfully pull of something experimental that the big boys would never do or they come up with a new spin on a old or forgotten/neglected genre genre.Most Indies in the MMO genre do nothing of the above so far,at best they take one part of an old game like Ultima online and try to make that the be all and end all of their game without any experimentation or innovation aside from a graphical upgrade.

It also pays to remember that for every Indie hit there's dozens of failures and break evens.

There is room in the MMO market for Indies with a unique angle or ideas just like any other genre but it seems the more complicated nature of the genre is maybe not attracting such people.

 

  RPGForever

Novice Member

Joined: 2/21/11
Posts: 118

11/24/13 1:03:07 PM#23
The problem with indie games is they try to emulate or surpass competitors instead coming up with what they would like to do. Indie know where the money is and they go in that direction but sometimes they enter to a competition arena with no resources and then they miserably fail.
  Newfr

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/06
Posts: 129

11/24/13 1:31:57 PM#24
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product. Yes, EA can dump millions of USD into a game... and end up with SWTOR - some kind of mediocre KOTOR clone but with some dudes from Internet in it for no reason at all. And i think i lost my faith that any AAA MMORPG can be the next UO, WoW or even Ragnarok Online (yes, i played it for a few years before WoW came out). Because now it's not about game, not about world, not about ideas. It's about money and that strange idea that the more money you dump into the game the more you get in return.

Or you can have Heaven and Hearth for example. Very niche game, ugly as hell and so on. But it gave me that incredible feeling of exploration, of figuring things out, of that MMO in MMORPG. Yeah, after some time that wears off, but not a single MMORPG since WoW could do that. Guess why? Because all this GW2, EQ2, LOTRO they are almost the same, not much changes since EQ (well, at least not all of the sudden so it's not that obvious). I played each of this games less than a month because initial hype wears off quickly and you realize that you are playing almost the same game that you left some time before. Yeap, MMORPGs are more difficult to create, but there are some indie MMORPGs that found their own players like Realm of the Mad God, Wurm Online or Champions of Regnum.

And if we look around. You know that League of Legends was made by what you can basically call an indie developer? Or Hawken? Or Forge? FFS even Counter-Strike once was a humble Half-Life mod (and how popular it was at that time!). So if you ask me - i want them to continue because that way we get a lot of finest game i ever played.

 

  TsaboHavoc

Novice Member

Joined: 11/01/11
Posts: 340

11/24/13 1:46:24 PM#25
the  indies are here to stay  also many are/will be profitable because the investiment is minimun/low,sorry.
  Ridelynn

Elite Member

Joined: 12/19/10
Posts: 3664

11/24/13 1:50:47 PM#26

Not every inventor comes up with the lightbulb, but for every 1 that does it inspires thousands of others to try.

And if no one tried, we've never have gotten the lightbulb in the first place.

That talent isn't being wasted, they are doing what they often dreamed of doing - making something that they wanted to make. It may not rock the industry, or be what you want them to make it, but commercial validation isn't the only way to measure something as successful. In my opinion, if a developer is proud of what they have done, and uses that as a springboard to continue to develop and grow, that's a success no matter how many copies it made.

After all, how many people played Operation: Desert Storm? It sold 2,500 copies when it was published. Those developers went on to write Minotaur, then Marthon, Myth, and Oni in short succession. Then they went on to produce Halo, and a few people actually bought that game. Now they are writing Destiny.

All that came from a game that sold 2,500 copies, and that history is over the course of more than 20 years. Just because someone doens't knock it out of the park with Minecraft on their first release doesn't mean it isn't noteworthy, or that they should stop wasting their talent.

  DrunkWolf

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 1120

11/24/13 2:01:26 PM#27

Normally when i see a indie game i see a huge list of features that sound great and i would love to have. then i sit back and think, how on earth are they going to be able to do all this with their 5 man team and low budget?  Then the game comes out everybody who read those features runs in finds out not even half of the shit they promised is in the game, people rage and quit.

game dead.

 

 

  stayontarget

Guide

Joined: 10/04/08
Posts: 6149

Girlfriends come and go but Epic battles are Soulbound

11/24/13 2:04:02 PM#28

Quote from OP:

The MMO genre is a field that's dominated by big, multi-million/billion dollar businesses.

This is exactly the reason why there are indies,  so they can break away from these big companies and all their demands.

Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...

  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

11/24/13 2:09:13 PM#29
Originally posted by delete5230

 

The sad news...........Nothing is being developed by Indies, and development is usually slow. I don't see a near future Hero to save us.

Shroud of the Avatar is indie and developing well. So is Black Desert.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

11/24/13 4:02:22 PM#30
Originally posted by jtcgs
Originally posted by delete5230

 

The sad news...........Nothing is being developed by Indies, and development is usually slow. I don't see a near future Hero to save us.

Shroud of the Avatar is indie and developing well. So is Black Desert.

Indeed. There are indie devs out there focusing their efforts on achievable goals. CU and Albion Online have very streamlined focuses, and games like TUG show that creativity has a lot of potential when the vision is there. Time will tell.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  NagelRitter

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/18/13
Posts: 613

11/24/13 4:07:32 PM#31
I'm not sure why indies should give up any sooner than non-indies. Sure, lots of stuff may be bad, but that is a good sign because it means lots of people have the technology available. A few good products will eventually come out, and that's worth it.

Favorite MMO: Vanilla WoW
Currently playing: GW2, EVE
Excited for: Wildstar, maybe?

  MMOredfalcon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/13
Posts: 135

11/24/13 4:16:42 PM#32
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 

Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

  I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

  iridescence

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1491

11/24/13 6:08:03 PM#33

AAA companies will probably never make the type of MMO I really want to play so indies are my only hope. Indie companies make some of the best single player games. The production costs have thusfar kept them from making decent MMOs but stuff like Unity seems to be lessening it.

 

I hope the future consists of a lot of niche indie MMOs serving different markets rather than the kind of huge boring one size fits all goliaths we have  now. 

  Quizzical

Guide

Joined: 12/11/08
Posts: 13808

11/24/13 6:08:51 PM#34
Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 

Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

  I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

So WoW doesn't count because it's a WoW clone, EQ2 is a WoW clone even though it launched before WoW, and GW2 is a WoW clone even though it's not really all that similar to WoW?

Fine then.  Tecmo-Koei has made a decent MMO in the last ten years.  And it's nothing like WoW, because Koei tends not to acknowledge the existence of other game companies in their game design decisions.

  Speely

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 864

11/24/13 6:18:04 PM#35
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 

Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

  I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

So WoW doesn't count because it's a WoW clone, EQ2 is a WoW clone even though it launched before WoW, and GW2 is a WoW clone even though it's not really all that similar to WoW?

Fine then.  Tecmo-Koei has made a decent MMO in the last ten years.  And it's nothing like WoW, because Koei tends not to acknowledge the existence of other game companies in their game design decisions.

You didn't get the memo? Everything is a WoW clone because WoW invented mmorpgs. Got quests? WoW clone. Got gear? WoW clone. Classes? Dubya-oh-Dubya doppleganger, at your service! If it's not a perma-death sci-fi shooter built with Voxels and zero pve, it's  a WoW clone. Truthfact.

http://www.mmorpg.com/blogs/PerfArt

  Solar_Prophet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 733

WAAAGH!

11/24/13 6:21:45 PM#36
Originally posted by Quizzical
Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

 

Originally posted by MMOredfalcon

So on the OP...can someone tell me exactly which AAA company has come out with a decent MMO in the past ten years?

World of Warcraft, Lord of the Rings Online, Guild Wars 2, Everquest 2...

  I asked which AAA company came out with a decent MMO in the past ten years.  Not the list of WoW clones.

So WoW doesn't count because it's a WoW clone, EQ2 is a WoW clone even though it launched before WoW, and GW2 is a WoW clone even though it's not really all that similar to WoW?

Fine then.  Tecmo-Koei has made a decent MMO in the last ten years.  And it's nothing like WoW, because Koei tends not to acknowledge the existence of other game companies in their game design decisions.

Quizzical, you're forgetting that every single MMO with PvE content created after Everquest is considered a WoW clone on this site. The only exception is EVE Online, although to hear the players of that game tell it, WiS almost turned it into one.

Tabula Rasa? WoW Clone.

Defiance? WoW Clone.

EverQuest 2? WoW Clone.

Earth & Beyond? WoW Clone.

Auto Assault? WoW Clone.

Hex: Shards of Fate? WoW Clone... or maybe HearthStone Clone.

 

Example of a common core math problem: If you have four pencils and seven apples, how many pancakes will fit on the roof? Purple. Because aliens don't wear hats.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4919

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

11/24/13 6:24:33 PM#37

More importantly WoW clones are apparently not MMO's.

And the AAA companies that produce them, are really not AAA. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  iridescence

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1491

11/24/13 6:44:16 PM#38

 

You didn't get the memo? Everything is a WoW clone because WoW invented mmorpgs. Got quests? WoW clone. Got gear? WoW clone. Classes? Dubya-oh-Dubya doppleganger, at your service! If it's not a perma-death sci-fi shooter built with Voxels and zero pve, it's  a WoW clone. Truthfact.

Bit of a strawman argument here. Can we agree that a WoW clone is a game with quest hub based leveling, "holy trinity" based classes, a defined level cap, instanced dungeons and PVP that is at least partly  instanced and has no impact on the wider world. A very simplistic economy and crafting system and a series of instanced dungeons and raids to keep players busy once they reach level cap?

 

WoW didn't invent all those mechanics but it combined them all into a financially successful formula and other than Guild Wars 2, it's hard to argue that the other games on the list don't share most or all of those characteristics. (and even GW2 is not as different from WoW as it first might appear).

 

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12406

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ArcheAge, and Combat Arms

11/24/13 6:50:11 PM#39
Originally posted by Newfr
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  waynejr2

Elite Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3881

RIP City of Heroes!

11/24/13 6:59:28 PM#40
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Newfr
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard

Indie developers can do good products... they must just stop trying to do stuff they just can't do with the required quality and polish, and stick to stuff which is in their reach.

While i agree with this statement i can't get why small niche MMO is a bad thing. You see, a lot of people here demand exactly that, because mainstream MMORPGs... well... i couldn't call em a quality product.

A lot of people are asking for niche gameplay features which a lot of indies just can't do with the polish and quality required for those asking for it.

I'm not suggesting that indies should stop trying, only pointing out that no one is saying small niche MMO is bad. However, just because a feature set is of interest to a small audience and  indie devs can making things for small audiences, that doesn't mean they necessarily have the ability or resources to create the niche MMO the players here want.

IMO there is one thing that could change that would be better for the community.  Players stopped being obsessed with graphics.  If we would choose to enjoy games with much less graphic requirements we would give indies a chance to put gameplay as the emphasis.  Higher levels of details or sparkly effects don't impress me.

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