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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Terrible, Horrible Vertical Expansions

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49 posts found
  Foomerang

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/10/05
Posts: 4294

A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still

11/22/13 4:25:57 PM#21

Correct me if I'm wrong, but:

Burning Crusade introduced two new races, two new starting areas, Horde got access to Paladin and Alliance got access to Shaman. SO there were tons of people playing through old content when that expansion launched.

Wrath of the Lich King introduced a new class you could start at 55 as well as epic chain quests which toured you through old zones and old starting cities. So there was still a lot of traffic going through old zones and content.

Cataclysm completely revamped all the old zones, added two new races and starter zones as well as more class/race unlocks. Practically everyone was in the old zones doing new content.

Mists of Pandaria introduced yet another race and starting area with all races having access to a new class. Plus the main storyline took players through Azeroth with new content in old zones.

So this new expansion brings a new continent and the ability to skip to 90. Storyline flows through a new continent, and it doesn't appear there will be new races or classes to encourage going through old content. Since this is literally the first time this has ever occurred in a WoW expansion, doesn't seem kind of silly to write an article about some sort of pattern?

If you thought the events were dynamic, you'll think the stories are living.

  Mirandel

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 101

11/22/13 6:56:48 PM#22
This is strange nobody mentioned GW2 yet. That game solved this "vertical" progression problem so elegantly. Hope THAT will be copied by the next generation of MMO.
  Skuall

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/20/05
Posts: 709

11/23/13 10:07:14 AM#23

yeah its sad that i missed dungeons/raids/zones/events because i didnt played at the time they were "fresh"

a new player to wow nowadays will level to 85 in no time ( u level sooooooooooooo fast that u can outlevel a zone in 1 hub of quests !)

lets say u go to arathi at the level u start getting quests, after the 2nd round of quests u have outleveled the zone , u can go on and finish the story arc in the zone but meh....

same goes for expansion zones,  u can lvl 58-63 in hellfire alone -_-

northrend? starter zone 68-74 easy , 80-85 ? is a joke u can hit 85 in the 1 zone (hyjal or vashjr)

MoP? u can hit 90 in 4 winds (2nd zone)

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

11/23/13 10:17:44 AM#24

This was a noticeable problem back when RPGs had 12-14 levels. It's why some ADnD campaigns would come with premade characters to hand out.

Now, we've removed the dynamic problem solving and discover of the DM run, personal experience as we've moved it to a multi-group persistent CRPG, making the gameplay more linear and static. In many MMOs, this leave little outside of leveling - the part of RPGs that has been broken since the beginning  - and exacerbated the problem by ballooning irom a dozen levels to 70, 80, 90 sometimes even hundreds of them.

A better or different progression system, combined with more diverse gameplay and additional paths of progression, would fix many of the problems of vertical expansions.

  GameByNight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/08/09
Posts: 67

11/23/13 2:45:53 PM#25
Originally posted by muppetpilot

And I love the author's reference to there being "10 people kicking around on the servers" by the time WoD comes out, as if some other game out there can even sniff the player base that WoW has.  I don't even play WoW and I know enough to avoid making statements like that.

Oh, lighten up. I was kidding. Yes, they have tons of player. Also yes, they have bled consistently for years now. Interest is waning. They will continue to be the outlier of outliers but with each quarterly call, they are falling further and further from their high point

Writer of The Tourist, Tripping the Rift, and co-writer of Player Versus Player
Host of Game On: ESP Edition
Blogger at GameByNight.com

  Dhraal

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/09
Posts: 40

11/24/13 1:07:27 AM#26

I think it gets more boring without vertical progression, because you then have no progression at all. If you don't progress with levels but by gear or an alternate path you have got the same problems all over again its just not the level number. 

 

I don't agree with the old content and everything done in the last  9 years being "invalidated" by instant lvl 90s. If someone starts to play Assassins Creed IV without playing the the others. That does not invalidate my experience of playing the other 5 Assassins Creed games.

  LittleBoot

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/08/13
Posts: 336

11/24/13 1:18:13 AM#27
Originally posted by GameByNight
Originally posted by muppetpilot

And I love the author's reference to there being "10 people kicking around on the servers" by the time WoD comes out, as if some other game out there can even sniff the player base that WoW has.  I don't even play WoW and I know enough to avoid making statements like that.

Oh, lighten up. I was kidding. Yes, they have tons of player. Also yes, they have bled consistently for years now. Interest is waning. They will continue to be the outlier of outliers but with each quarterly call, they are falling further and further from their high point

the only way is down and all that. 

  Dhraal

Novice Member

Joined: 11/13/09
Posts: 40

11/24/13 1:21:33 AM#28
Originally posted by Kilrain

Remove levels entirely and focus strictly on content. Providing fun things to do is more important and character progression through levels and restrictions. If you think about it, progression could simply be the experience. Starting a fresh game and not having a first dungeon or a last dungeon. Just a lot of dungeons that everyone can explore and run at any time. Items that anyone can acquire. Going out on a big adventure to get that rare material required to craft an item sounds more fun to me than grinding out 1000 copper swords in order to be able to craft the bronze one that you need. Make that journey difficult and time consuming.

Then, any new content added to the game can be experienced by any individual, regardless of how early or late they've entered the game.

 

It is an interesting idea which works for games like Super Mario or Halo where you don't have progression. But I think that is not what RPG players want. Because you said you need to go on an adventure to craft your "Bronze Sword" which means there is different gear, some is bad, some good and some better. There will be a "best sword" in game, it will be the best forever (otherwise you have again vertical progression) and you can start with just getting that sword and you are done. If you can't because you are to weak and need to get on quests for copper sword first you again have got a progression.

For me it is really hard to imagine an RPG without progression. A lot of other games in other genres don't have it, but leveling and collecting gear is part of the fun in this genre, or isn't it?

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1754

11/24/13 2:39:05 AM#29

"Expansions aren’t just for adding new levels and zones, they’re for expanding the existing game."

TSW is great in that, with regular, smaller updates, which expanding the system in the first place (as in the surgery, aux weapons, or now with the augments).

And for the content, the "old world vs. new world" as you wrote, Issues are a nice answer as well. They're usually adding new areas, but in most cases they're adding new content to the "old" areas as well, so there's no "old world" in the sense of a level-focused game, you use every part of the world all the time.

  mysticaluna

Advanced Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 225

11/24/13 4:05:32 AM#30

Oh, I totally agree with you, no one does world bosses in pandaria anymore. NO ONE. You have to go and painstakingly ask around in chat channels and web sites begging for a world boss raid now for Sha, oon, nalak and galleon... All anyone does is Siege of Orgrimmar Flexibles and Celestial/Ordos every single day 24/7. 

So, every single gear vertical game update or expansion makes all previous content no longer desired, and anyone who comes back from taking a break for 6 months, only wants to skip all the lfr raids and go straight to the new lfrs , without bothering to get any equipment or do all the content. Even to the point where people use pvp gear from grinding battlegrounds or paying people to carry them through arenas, just so they can queue up and run higher end raids without bothering to do the lower end ones. 

Everyone is just skipping all of the content that is not the newest game update patch. You can have massive problems just trying to find 1 single tank to do anything that isn't the newest game update for the highest ilvl shiniest current loot. 

I wish games would stop with the gear and the levels outdating content, and simply give us more reasons to keep on grouping/raiding... Give us fun engaging storyline quests. We don't need this shiny carrot on a stick, hasn't it gotten old in the past 12 years yet? 

We could just have emotes, consummables, cosmetics, house furniture, mounts, companion / battle pets, permanent clickies, new spells and abilities, new tradeskill recipes, any number of new items to group/raid for, it doesn't have to be equipment upgrades every single game update and every single expansion pack. 

When I run raids what do I see ? Nothing but equipment, only mounts on a very low non-existant drop rate so that I will never actually get one, once in awhile I have gotten pets rarely, and that is pretty much it. Mostly 95% equipment, 5% pets and 0% mounts from raid zones. 

  Nicco77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 30

11/24/13 4:17:12 AM#31
Originally posted by Mirandel
This is strange nobody mentioned GW2 yet. That game solved this "vertical" progression problem so elegantly. Hope THAT will be copied by the next generation of MMO.

GW2 does NOT solved anything,with the ascended item there's a gear progression based 100% on chinese style farming and also get a gear chek on fractals thanks to the agony system and so more farm.

Also in GW2 the end game has a constant request of gold that must be farmed costantly and the PVE content it's so boring that when you farm dungeon or events you can't have fun.

Every new update of GW2 it's only more farm spots and events the only estetic content it's placed on the gem store.

Yes GW2 has no vertical progression but has the worst end game ever see in a mmorpg.

  trancejeremy

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 1204

11/24/13 5:40:53 AM#32

I haven't played GW2, since I am boycotting NCSoft over their closure of the still profitable City of Heroes, but I did play a lot of GW. Maybe GW2 improves on the model, but I found GW's lack of leveling beyond 20 to be annoying.

Ultimately, levels should be a gauge of difficulty. 

I am not a person that likes to optimize my character, in terms of skills or gear.  So typically, if I am on level, I usually have a rough time of things, since I am generally very much undergeared.

In games where there are a lot of levels, and the cap keeps increasing, I can overlevel stuff as I play to compensate for my lack of character op.

In games like GW, I simply can't. So I quit playing. in GW, it was sooner rather than later.

City of Heroes did a pretty good job of scaling content to people's levels. If a high level friend wanted to play with a low level friend, they could, the game scaled them.

 

Helm's Deep tries to do this, but the big battles system is truly awful. It's like you are a spectator in a tower defense game, not even a participant. Oh sure, you can click panels and buttons and banners, but in the end it just feels like busy work, not anything that has any effect.

R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  xanthmetis

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/07/13
Posts: 108

11/24/13 6:03:56 AM#33
Originally posted by Nicco77
Originally posted by Mirandel
This is strange nobody mentioned GW2 yet. That game solved this "vertical" progression problem so elegantly. Hope THAT will be copied by the next generation of MMO.

GW2 does NOT solved anything,with the ascended item there's a gear progression based 100% on chinese style farming and also get a gear chek on fractals thanks to the agony system and so more farm.

Also in GW2 the end game has a constant request of gold that must be farmed costantly and the PVE content it's so boring that when you farm dungeon or events you can't have fun.

Every new update of GW2 it's only more farm spots and events the only estetic content it's placed on the gem store.

Yes GW2 has no vertical progression but has the worst end game ever see in a mmorpg.

To respond for GW2 they did not make the game for an end game focus.  The end  game is pretty much throughout.  Truly, you do not need any gear that is so leet to be able to accomplish something.  If you want to grind and get your legendary you are welcome to, but its not a requirement.  

They did create a game where past gear is useful in future expansions/patches.  Causing past areas not to become obsolete.

You also did not mention anything about tpvp/spvp.  There is no gear grind everyone has access to the same gear and options  and specs.  Making this much more focused on skill :)  Only thing you are grinding is different skins.

  skeaser

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 3662

Don't die mad, just die.

11/24/13 6:06:51 AM#34
Originally posted by Guler

Couldn't agree with this more. Old content, equipment and skills becoming obsolete is a frustrating experience. Nothing sums that up better then Warcraft in which from level 1-80 currently levels you up so fast equipment you get becomes obsolete within the hour, all so you can rush through to whatever is the current expansion.

 

In Warcrafts defense I do like the idea that they are going to have dungeons that scale with level, and made heroic versions of past dungeons. This seems like a good way to add vertical progression while not removing content.

 

All to often in MMOs they start with a huge core game, with lots of areas to explore and quest in. Then comes the first expansion and the previous areas are no longer worth adventuring in due to the new content providing better gear, better exp, or whatever. My issue with this is the expansions are often much smaller then the core game was. So an expansion that raises the level cap may add new zones to the game, but by the time you subtract old content that is now irrelavent you end up with a smaller end game world.

 

This. I went back to WoW about a year ago due to some RL friends and as soon as I got in they had me install some add-on (can't remember the name) that was literally an on-screen GPS that leveled you as fast as scientifically possible. It was nowhere near fun. I quit within a week. I want an MMO that makes exploration worth it from 1-max and the biggest thing that games need to make this work is no or slow leveling.


A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything.
-Friedrich Nietzsche

  nerovipus32

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2643

11/24/13 6:34:21 AM#35
Every game should have an optional level down mechanic.
  mindw0rk

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/31/06
Posts: 1316

11/24/13 6:53:01 AM#36
At least there is someone excited about WoD
  Myria

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/09
Posts: 484

11/24/13 7:00:24 AM#37
Originally posted by GameByNight

Oh, lighten up. I was kidding. Yes, they have tons of player. Also yes, they have bled consistently for years now. Interest is waning. They will continue to be the outlier of outliers but with each quarterly call, they are falling further and further from their high point

All of which might actually be relevant if their "high point" wasn't a half dozen orders of magnitude higher than everyone else combined, thus making it inconveniently hard to dismiss the success of their model with "interest is waning" or a "I'm kidding (but not really)" joke.

  Nicco77

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/12
Posts: 30

11/24/13 11:04:18 AM#38
Originally posted by xanthmetis
Originally posted by Nicco77
Originally posted by Mirandel
This is strange nobody mentioned GW2 yet. That game solved this "vertical" progression problem so elegantly. Hope THAT will be copied by the next generation of MMO.

GW2 does NOT solved anything,with the ascended item there's a gear progression based 100% on chinese style farming and also get a gear chek on fractals thanks to the agony system and so more farm.

Also in GW2 the end game has a constant request of gold that must be farmed costantly and the PVE content it's so boring that when you farm dungeon or events you can't have fun.

Every new update of GW2 it's only more farm spots and events the only estetic content it's placed on the gem store.

Yes GW2 has no vertical progression but has the worst end game ever see in a mmorpg.

To respond for GW2 they did not make the game for an end game focus.  The end  game is pretty much throughout.  Truly, you do not need any gear that is so leet to be able to accomplish something.  If you want to grind and get your legendary you are welcome to, but its not a requirement.  

They did create a game where past gear is useful in future expansions/patches.  Causing past areas not to become obsolete.

You also did not mention anything about tpvp/spvp.  There is no gear grind everyone has access to the same gear and options  and specs.  Making this much more focused on skill :)  Only thing you are grinding is different skins.

At level 80 if you are not interested in the legendary and ascended farm you have nothing more to do PVE side.

The PVP is terrible with costant umbalance of some classes after every patch and the WWW system got seriuos technical problems this cause a max pg cap on every map and a acces queue totally broken,SPVP it's forgettable.

People are playing GW2 for two main reasons:1 it's without monthly fee,2 the other F2P games are too bad or too complicated.

GW2 it's a game for the asian market,NCsoft put a strong development direction you can see it by the farming nature of the game,after the asian release they will concentrate on following the request of the asian players.

  Gdemami

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/23/08
Posts: 6382

11/24/13 12:06:04 PM#39
I only wonder if anyone got paid for that "article"...  I do not read articles here much but this one definitely set new low for me.
  Slampig

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2372

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

11/24/13 1:32:33 PM#40

So a one-time jump to level 90 is "throwing away 3/4s" of the game? Is Blizzard forcing people to do this level jump?

This article just seems more bashing on Blizzard for the sake of bashing...

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

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