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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

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  Stratagos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/10
Posts: 13

11/21/13 12:34:21 AM#41
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Ikkei

It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

In my case, here's what I observed.

In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

This results in frustrating situations like:

  • Enemy starts casting something.
  • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
  • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
  • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
  • *healer heals you*

It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.

I would suggest finding out for yourself.

Too expensive to find out I don't like the game.  The speed of the combat sounds fine, it's the endgame mechanics of memorizing fights, rather than reacting to situations, that is keeping me from diving in.

  drivendawn

Elite Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 893

11/21/13 1:05:11 AM#42
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Ikkei

It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

In my case, here's what I observed.

In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

This results in frustrating situations like:

  • Enemy starts casting something.
  • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
  • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
  • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
  • *healer heals you*

It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.

I would suggest finding out for yourself.

Too expensive to find out I don't like the game.  The speed of the combat sounds fine, it's the endgame mechanics of memorizing fights, rather than reacting to situations, that is keeping me from diving in.

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

  Stratagos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/10
Posts: 13

11/21/13 1:21:46 AM#43
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Ikkei

It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

In my case, here's what I observed.

In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

This results in frustrating situations like:

  • Enemy starts casting something.
  • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
  • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
  • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
  • *healer heals you*

It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.

I would suggest finding out for yourself.

Too expensive to find out I don't like the game.  The speed of the combat sounds fine, it's the endgame mechanics of memorizing fights, rather than reacting to situations, that is keeping me from diving in.

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

  Sho0terMcgavin

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/13
Posts: 318

11/21/13 1:30:43 AM#44
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

I got a dragoon up to about level 42.  It was really hard to keep logging in.  But, I wanted to give the game a fair shot.  It bored me to tears.  For all those people saying it gets a lot faster etc.  Well, I didn't see it lol.  Only difference between level 1 and level 42 is I had more slow boring abilities.

  chakalaka

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 240

The thing is... you're important to a lot of people.

11/21/13 1:32:56 AM#45
Agreeeeeed OP haha! People will tell you that it seems to get faster as you progress but really? +20% faster maybe with MONK only?? Sounds about right, root canal type combat, painfully non-immersive world (especially for the FF universe and also while experiencing TSW), odd endgame and no pvp at launch? Haha I feeel like I'm being rubbed but not finished.
  pinktailz

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/13/12
Posts: 66

11/21/13 1:49:47 AM#46
It is not only slow combat, the game overall is utterly piece of crap, worst mmo i ever bought, just remember this crappy asian man from introduction video, which you cant even skip, cant beliave i spend 30$ on that, damn >_<
  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 784

11/21/13 1:52:45 AM#47
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
*snip*

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

 

I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

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  chakalaka

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/10
Posts: 240

The thing is... you're important to a lot of people.

11/21/13 2:06:17 AM#48
Originally posted by grimfall
Originally posted by marz.at.play
Originally posted by jonesing22
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

This is how you know where this player has come from. See, for me the combat pace feels finee because I played EQ in 2001 - if you were a melee class you had 1 or 2 abilities - kick, bash, taunt.....other than that you auto attacked every 2.4 seconds if you had a good weapon. 

World of Warcraft much?

Actually I never played WOW. I came from GW (7 years) and a slew of other MMO's in between. Most recently been playing AoC.

There's literally no excuse to not have played WoW.

Oh yea You're so cool. The poster gave their EXC USE in the comment, didn't you see that they played GW ??? Pay attention.

  Stratagos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/10
Posts: 13

11/21/13 2:09:09 AM#49
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
*snip*

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

 

I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

Now see, this doesn't sound so bad.  It sounds like ex: "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides." Or "Nefarian is about to do a class call, get ready." Or "Anub'Rekhan casts Locust Swarm, tank kites."

  likwidsage

Novice Member

Joined: 10/05/07
Posts: 90

11/21/13 2:12:13 AM#50

As someone that's played GW2 (Woot for legendary weapon!) since beta, I'd have to disagree. While it's true that at early levels the game is slow and feels boring, its very different end game. Titan is so fast paced alot of people can't keep up with it. And first timers to the Demon Wall in AK take a while to adjust to the movements required. The difference is that GW2 lets you spam skills, but not much happens environmentally that's a huge risk. Yea you might get hit, you might even die, but death is so temporary that it really doesn't matter. In FFXIV, it's quite the opposite. The skills take a while to cast and then there's cool down. However, most of the challenging fights have alot happening in the environment that you need to keep up with, or it's going to cause a wipe. A death in FFXIV is much more risky since the raising takes a long time, whether its the cast time or the recovery time after a raise, which makes it so that you have to know when to raise in most end game battles, as opposed to raising whenever in GW2.

Honestly the battle system is the only thing I like about the game. Chat system is god awful. Maps are almost illogical. Teleporting could be WAY easier. And the server side lag is horrid. However, the battle system is fun enough to make up for it. The requirement for frequent movement during battles makes end game a much faster pace. Yes the game requires you to know what's coming up in end game battles, but it doesn't take away from the experience because keeping the cycles correct while dodging and juggling your rotation simultaneously keeps you as busy as you could hope to be. Not to mention that there are critical points at which certain actions need to take place or it's a guaranteed wipe. And then there's supposed to be an insane mode coming with 2.1 which I can't even begin to imagine since some of the fights (Titan and Gaurda) are already low chances of completion for most.

We that's was my 1/50th of  a dollar.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 784

11/21/13 2:23:38 AM#51
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
*snip*

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

 

I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

Now see, this doesn't sound so bad.  It sounds like ex: "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides." Or "Nefarian is about to do a class call, get ready." Or "Anub'Rekhan casts Locust Swarm, tank kites."

I am not sure how to read this. You said you want to react to things, In this game you can't or you will fail even as a tank. Btw my main was a tank PLD.

 

It's more like start moving just before the "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides."  or you will not be able to avoid the attack.

It is not a game where a boss can spam skills in different orders and you use skill, knowledge of the game or gear combinations even to survive, dodge or mitigate an attack by knowing the boss "tells" etc.

The only thing that matters really is have decent gear for the content and knowing the "script" or order of attacks so to speak cause they never vary.

 

My wife and I paid 60 buck or so each for the CE edition preorder (we actually got the preorders on sale) and it was worth the cost for the time we played but for a new person I would say try the cheaper 30 buck version first cause there is good chances you will be done after a month or two at most.

 

If you really want more info on endgame try the official forums and this thread in particular. My self I am back to DDO and enjoying it. Might give ARR another go if they ever fix some of the issues at some point seeing as there should be new content then if not oh well.

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  Stratagos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/10
Posts: 13

11/21/13 2:30:03 AM#52
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
*snip*

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

 

I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

Now see, this doesn't sound so bad.  It sounds like ex: "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides." Or "Nefarian is about to do a class call, get ready." Or "Anub'Rekhan casts Locust Swarm, tank kites."

I am not sure how to read this. You said you want to react to things, In this game you can't or you will fail even as a tank. Btw my main was a tank PLD.

 

It's more like start moving just before the "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides."  or you will not be able to avoid the attack.

It is not a game where a boss can spam skills in different orders and you use skill, knowledge of the game or gear combinations even to survive, dodge or mitigate an attack by knowing the boss "tells" etc.

The only thing that matters really is have decent gear for the content and knowing the "script" or order of attacks so to speak cause they never vary.

 

My wife and I paid 60 buck or so each for the CE edition preorder (we actually got the preorders on sale) and it was worth the cost for the time we played but for a new person I would say try the cheaper 30 buck version first cause there is good chances you will be done after a month or two at most.

 

If you really want more info on endgame try the official forums and this thread in particular. My self I am back to DDO and enjoying it. Might give ARR another go if they ever fix some of the issues at some point seeing as there should be new content then if not oh well.

Hmmm, I see.  So there's nothing in "the fight" that would really tell you to "get to the sides," you just have to know that it's time to "get to the sides."  That does sound like a bummer.  Maybe I should just go play World of Warcraft.

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 784

11/21/13 2:38:46 AM#53
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by drivendawn
*snip*

Yes you will have to memorize mechanics in fights but believe me they aren't easy mode, good luck doing things like titan hard mode with a pickup. But hey if you like pure tank and spank games you won't like this.

Pretty much the opposite of what I was trying to say.  Memorization of fights doesn't bother me, but if that's all there is, and no reacting to things I didn't see coming, then that sounds pretty dull.

It goes like this, you need to memorize fights because if you react to things as you see them coming  instead of just before they will hit you regardless of where you are on your screen. That is all there is too it.

The fights are scripted  and the attacks always come  in the same order. If you try to react to things more often than not you will die as many of the attacks that you need to avoid are instakills or near enough.  I can't stress this enough you need to memorize the fights so you can "react" before" the attacks come up.

Now by react we mean move away, you can actually move out of the way, just before an attack, and then move right back in the danger area see the animation hit you and you get zero damage but you can also avoid an attack be no where near it and get hit as well. 

Like I said I liked the game while leveling and the story but damn this endgame and the mechanics used in it suck arse. Some people will say it takes skill and strategy. Frankly I don't agree.

 

I am a big big fan of most of the old FF single players games baring FFXIII and sadly I would have preferred  a DDO style combat to this mess. It's kind of like they tried to do like the Neverwinter game from PW but then messed it up, add in really poopy netcode to acerbate things.

Now see, this doesn't sound so bad.  It sounds like ex: "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides." Or "Nefarian is about to do a class call, get ready." Or "Anub'Rekhan casts Locust Swarm, tank kites."

I am not sure how to read this. You said you want to react to things, In this game you can't or you will fail even as a tank. Btw my main was a tank PLD.

 

It's more like start moving just before the "Onyxia is about to Deep Breath, everybody get to the sides."  or you will not be able to avoid the attack.

It is not a game where a boss can spam skills in different orders and you use skill, knowledge of the game or gear combinations even to survive, dodge or mitigate an attack by knowing the boss "tells" etc.

The only thing that matters really is have decent gear for the content and knowing the "script" or order of attacks so to speak cause they never vary.

 

My wife and I paid 60 buck or so each for the CE edition preorder (we actually got the preorders on sale) and it was worth the cost for the time we played but for a new person I would say try the cheaper 30 buck version first cause there is good chances you will be done after a month or two at most.

 

If you really want more info on endgame try the official forums and this thread in particular. My self I am back to DDO and enjoying it. Might give ARR another go if they ever fix some of the issues at some point seeing as there should be new content then if not oh well.

Hmmm, I see.  So there's nothing in "the fight" that would really tell you to "get to the sides," you just have to know that it's time to "get to the sides."  That does sound like a bummer.  Maybe I should just go play World of Warcraft.

No there is a big red circle that appears and the boss has a skillbar timer thing that shows up near his name but if you wait till that shows up you more often than not are in trouble, the animations don't sync well together.

 

Like I said if you are strafing to the side say just before the attack pops up (cause you know the script) you can actually jump back right in front even if the boss  cast skillbar is at 90% and wont get hit by his attack evfen though the animation has you standing right in his "fire breath of doom".

 

Your party mate though that wasn't strafing (but got out before the boss cast skillbar was complete) and isn't in the "fire breath of doom animation" can skill take damage from it even if hes on the other side of the room behind a pillar.

If it wasn't for this type of combat mechanics I would be in the game like white on rice. I have givin up hope this will be corrected though.

Heh SE even has this as an "accepted bug" but they don't see to want to fix it. closest remark people got was scroll the camera back.

 

Other than this the game was fun and gave me a FF feel with the storyline but this endgame shenanigans just broke it for me.

 

This is just my opinion and such being subjective YMMV .

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  HansKaosu

Novice Member

Joined: 11/19/13
Posts: 4

11/21/13 2:46:26 AM#54
If you think this is slow then i bet you would have rage quite 1.0
  Solar_Prophet

Elite Member

Joined: 11/10/13
Posts: 588

11/21/13 3:02:50 AM#55

I think it's fine as is. There's definitely a bit more thought when it comes to rotations, and even more so playing a monk (which speeds up considerably).

Sorry you don't like it. Perhaps the twitch combat from GW2 would suit you better?

Also, Rift has so-so combat (about the pace of WoW's), but the animations are just so godawful to watch that it almost causes me physical pain. Honestly, the thought of watching my character in Rift fight makes me consider gouging my eyes out.

FFXIV's animations, while a bit too flashy, are much better and even fun to watch.

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  JudgeUK

Elite Member

Joined: 10/15/11
Posts: 712

11/21/13 3:09:34 AM#56

"the animations don't sync well together..."

Well that's one way of putting it. The defense of the combat system wouldn't be on such weak ground if they did something about the server response delay.

This is by far the largest topic on the forum, running into hundreds of pages across several different post titles. The "if I don't choose the right skill I can wipe etc" posts have to be taken in the context that even if your actions are correct in line with the animations you can still wipe. The "feature"(???) of getting hit after moving well away from any aoe marking is simply unacceptable in any mmo, never mind one so recently launched.

Servers in Canada for EU - yep that's close - compared to the moon. But it's not just location as people can suffer this response delay no matter where they are.

Something is definitely up here, as some EU people have switched to the Japanese servers and say their delay issues have disappeared.

So the GCD is one thing, but this is intended to work with correct animation timings. If these where correct and you were near the end of a cast, you could finish it knowing you'd still have time to move out of the aoe. At present however you cannot.

I doubt if this can ever be fixed owing to the way the client server information is handled in this game. So the question is - why have mmo's from years ago solved this issue, yet ffxiv is launched with it?

  Raquis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/13
Posts: 303

11/21/13 3:19:16 AM#57

I told people exactly how the game is and then they said I am trolling.

the game is just worth a buy don't subscribe the dungens are nice but the mindless missions just to keep you busy got to me in the end I couldn't even finish the game so boring it is .

  Asm0deus

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 784

11/21/13 3:22:24 AM#58
Originally posted by JudgeUK

"the animations don't sync well together..."

*SNIP*

You will note I had given a link to this very issue, one that I was very active in i might add. Going into too much detail here will just attract really shiny people in tanky armor.  I figured that thread I linked would say much more than we can in one post here ;)

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  Muke

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/07
Posts: 1534

11/21/13 3:24:40 AM#59
Originally posted by grimfall
Originally posted by marz.at.play
Originally posted by jonesing22
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

This is how you know where this player has come from. See, for me the combat pace feels finee because I played EQ in 2001 - if you were a melee class you had 1 or 2 abilities - kick, bash, taunt.....other than that you auto attacked every 2.4 seconds if you had a good weapon. 

World of Warcraft much?

Actually I never played WOW. I came from GW (7 years) and a slew of other MMO's in between. Most recently been playing AoC.

There's literally no excuse to not have played WoW.

Maybe he want a challenge for his braincells instead of killing them off?

"going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  JudgeUK

Elite Member

Joined: 10/15/11
Posts: 712

11/21/13 3:27:39 AM#60
Originally posted by Asm0deus
Originally posted by JudgeUK

"the animations don't sync well together..."

*SNIP*

You will note I had given a link to this very issue, one that I was very active in i might add. Going into too much detail here will just attract really shiny people in tanky armor.  I figured that thread I linked would say much more than we can in one post here ;)

Thank you and yes, if people follow the link they will see the player responses.

Unfortunately the one thing that is missing is any response from the company, despite the number of posts.

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