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Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn

Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn 

General Discussion  » OMG The Combat

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85 posts found
  rojo6934

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 4550

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

11/20/13 7:44:13 PM#21
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

TSW and Rift combat are underdeveloped..... poorly done, but they are faster. TSW would have a great combat if the animations didnt suck as they do.  FFXIV combat is better than those 2 combined, but yeah the slow global cooldown kills it completely. Note, im talking about animation quality only and feel only

"in peace, in sleep under the barren, abandoned soil"

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7254

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/20/13 7:53:04 PM#22

The combat system was sluggish and boring to me..  though I played primarily caster classes...  mostly Scholar,  but Summoner and BM too.....    I love caster classes usually,  but I just couldn't fall in love with any of them.

 

Granted I felt the scholar was the most useful, it had a lot of fast cast abilities, and healing bosses was usually a challenge because of the cast times,  less because of the GCD.

 

I think the game is pretty good overall, but its really geared towards a crowd that likes the slower, more mechanical pace.  My buddy that I leveled with and had a Bard and a Warrior really loved playing his bard,  but, bard was one of the most played classes on our server, possibly any server,  and he was stuck playing his warrior more than he'd like which he found extremely boring, and it made us a scholar warrior team which put us both into roles that excited us less and less the more we played the same content.

 

I moved on however,  but he's stayed,  without me around he's been forcing people to accept his bard and he likes it a lot more...    game just wasn't for me.

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  grimfall

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/25/07
Posts: 1148

11/20/13 8:07:20 PM#23
Originally posted by marz.at.play
Originally posted by jonesing22
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

This is how you know where this player has come from. See, for me the combat pace feels finee because I played EQ in 2001 - if you were a melee class you had 1 or 2 abilities - kick, bash, taunt.....other than that you auto attacked every 2.4 seconds if you had a good weapon. 

World of Warcraft much?

Actually I never played WOW. I came from GW (7 years) and a slew of other MMO's in between. Most recently been playing AoC.

There's literally no excuse to not have played WoW.

  TangentPoint

Elite Member

Joined: 2/12/12
Posts: 976

The "Real Game" begins at character creation.

11/20/13 8:16:10 PM#24
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

TSW and Rift combat are underdeveloped..... poorly done, but they are faster. TSW would have a great combat if the animations didnt suck as they do.  FFXIV combat is better than those 2 combined, but yeah the slow global cooldown kills it completely. Note, im talking about animation quality only and feel only

Underdeveloped and poorly done in your opinion. Important bit you left out there, so I added it in for you.

So, it's not the combat system itself you have a problem with in TSW. It's the animations. So basically, if they "improved" the animations (to your satisfaction), it would be exactly the same combat system it is now... with - in your opinion - "better" animations.

Hence, TSW's combat system is - in your words - "great". 

Eye candy isn't what makes a combat system work or not. It's the mechanics behind it. Trying to dismiss the combat system because you don't like the animations, is like saying "this meal would taste great if the silverware was better". Just as silverware has nothing to do with the taste of food, animations have nothing to do with the core mechanics of a combat system.

Some people have some seriously shallow criteria for what makes something "good".

 

 

My philosophy on MMORPGs:

Leveling is what happens while you're playing the rest of the game.

Don't worry about levels. Just play.

  Braindome

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/06/11
Posts: 448

11/20/13 8:19:03 PM#25
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

 Sucks for you, sorry you didn't enjoy the game. However, I personally love the combat in the game and feel that it's perfectly fine. I even play a White Mages (healer) easily making it one of the slowest classes in the game to level.

 

I agree, the combat is fine and suits the needs of the fanbase it's targetting. It's a Final Fantasy game, not sure what you were expecting and no I don't think it is boring, but yeah Age of Conan is better overall combat wise imo. Also to other posters SWG was good in all forms. 

Thank you for listening to my opinion. 

  fodell54

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/13/08
Posts: 290

Swift as the wind
Quiet as the forest
Conquer like the fire
Steady as the mountain
-Sun Tzu

11/20/13 8:23:17 PM#26
Originally posted by jonesing22
Originally posted by marz.at.play

Really? This has got to be the SLOWEST combat I've every experienced in any MMO. 2.5 second global cooldown? I feel like I'm sitting on a dentist chair and getting a root canal, that's how painfully slow this is...and people complained about TSW and RIFT's combat? They both trounce FFXIV. I have to force myself to log in because I feel guilty I spent $30.00 and played so little so far.

Sorry for the drama. It's just DAMN! Really? Ok please flame on.

This is how you know where this player has come from. See, for me the combat pace feels finee because I played EQ in 2001 - if you were a melee class you had 1 or 2 abilities - kick, bash, taunt.....other than that you auto attacked every 2.4 seconds if you had a good weapon. 

World of Warcraft much?

I played EQ in 00'ish time frame along with UO and I still think this combat sucks. If I wanted boring combat I'd still be playing EQ. The fact that most games combat isn't like that anymore says volumes.

Rose tinted glasses much?

  SirToke

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/10
Posts: 205

For those who have ears, let them hear..

11/20/13 8:27:58 PM#27

[mod edit]

I love the combat, not one for button crunching. If the game is so boring move on instead of coming to the forums to cry about it. You had to of played a Final Fantasy Game in your life before unless you were just born so what did you expect? This is the Final fantasy style. With that said, Final Fantasy XiV ARR was made with fans of the IP in mind. Not to plz everyone.

You should try Tera Online out. I hear that game has fast combat. That might be a better suit.

  drivendawn

Elite Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 784

11/20/13 8:34:41 PM#28
Originally posted by MysticStyleS

[mod edit]

I love the combat, not one for button crunching. If the game is so boring move on instead of coming to the forums to cry about it. You had to of played a Final Fantasy Game in your life before unless you were just born so what did you expect? This is the Final fantasy style. With that said, Final Fantasy XiV ARR was made with fans of the IP in mind. Not to plz everyone.

You should try Tera Online out. I hear that game has fast combat. That might be a better suit.

Agree completely, when I try a game and don't like it I don't go to its game forum to tell the people that like it that I think it sucks.

  marz.at.play

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/08/08
Posts: 910

nanu nanu

 
OP  11/20/13 8:36:38 PM#29
Originally posted by MysticStyleS

[mod edit]

I love the combat, not one for button crunching. If the game is so boring move on instead of coming to the forums to cry about it. You had to of played a Final Fantasy Game in your life before unless you were just born so what did you expect? This is the Final fantasy style. With that said, Final Fantasy XiV ARR was made with fans of the IP in mind. Not to plz everyone.

You should try Tera Online out. I hear that game has fast combat. That might be a better suit.

[mod edit] I guess I came to vent pissed off that I wasted $30.00. I tried TERA but questing was boring and too repetitive. Didn't enjoy the action style combat. I thought NW did it better. 

  SirToke

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/10
Posts: 205

For those who have ears, let them hear..

11/20/13 8:42:50 PM#30
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by MysticStyleS

[mod edit]

I love the combat, not one for button crunching. If the game is so boring move on instead of coming to the forums to cry about it. You had to of played a Final Fantasy Game in your life before unless you were just born so what did you expect? This is the Final fantasy style. With that said, Final Fantasy XiV ARR was made with fans of the IP in mind. Not to plz everyone.

You should try Tera Online out. I hear that game has fast combat. That might be a better suit.

Agree completely, when I try a game and don't like it I don't go to its game forum to tell the people that like it that I think it sucks.

Right! I mean c'mon! It's crazy that people complain about the combat speed and claim the game sucks because its not as fast as they would like. For one, its everyones fault that wasted their money on a Final Fantasy title expecting something different when its always been that way with FF. Also, Don't most of these people think that A LOT of people (Myself) enjoy combat speeds a bit more relaxed. I HATE fast tweaky button crunching combat, so maybe i should go on the forums of games with super fast combat and complain that i think they suck because the combat is to fast. Lol

  SirToke

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/20/10
Posts: 205

For those who have ears, let them hear..

11/20/13 8:46:51 PM#31
Originally posted by marz.at.play
Originally posted by MysticStyleS

[mod edit]

I love the combat, not one for button crunching. If the game is so boring move on instead of coming to the forums to cry about it. You had to of played a Final Fantasy Game in your life before unless you were just born so what did you expect? This is the Final fantasy style. With that said, Final Fantasy XiV ARR was made with fans of the IP in mind. Not to plz everyone.

You should try Tera Online out. I hear that game has fast combat. That might be a better suit.

[mod edit] I guess I came to vent pissed off that I wasted $30.00. I tried TERA but questing was boring and too repetitive. Didn't enjoy the action style combat. I thought NW did it better. 

[mod edit] Next time before you waste money on a title you are not familiar with, wait for the game to come out, then Youtube game play footage and do some research on other gameplay features to see if its a suit for you. Can't say i feel your frustration because i don't run on and waste money on anything before i know that its something i want. G'luck to you in the future friend and i hope you take my advice

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6355

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

11/20/13 8:53:40 PM#32

To judge combat based on how fast or slow it is and not how good it is,is probably the most shallow complaint i could hear.

I personally don't like FFXIV combat,not because of speed although there is a lot more can be done if it was slower yet.

A fight in FFXI could take 1-2 minutes,a fight in FFXIV can take around 15-20 seconds.

When cool downs are too fast,the game becomes spamming ,the worst kind of combat,FFXIV cool downs are too fast as is.

In FFXI some skills might have 15 or 30 second timers,some had 2 minutes,some 5 minutes and the best skill was a 2 hour skill.It means you have to "THINK" you have to manage your skills and play your player to the best of your ability.Slower combat also meant a good chance the mages mana supply would come under duress,so again smart management of resources,work as a team not as an individual spamming.

Things have all changed now,even FFXI is a ton faster now,it ruined the game badly.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Ramonski7

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 2601

"A wise man has something to say, but a fool just has to say something."

11/20/13 9:15:01 PM#33

The combat speed is largely based on the way high level encounters are set up. It takes in account that you should be thinking about what you are going to do rather than spamming buttons/skills like a coked up chipmunk. But this is more about the restraint placed on skill cooldowns rather than the actual speed of the combat. Some skills shared a GCD for a reason and some do not. The ones that do not are instant and highly situational.

 

For instance, trying to time a interrupt on Ifrit HM's eruption while spamming skills as soon as the GCD has expired will get your group wiped quick. Also it doesn't help to spam that interrupt because the boss will build a immunity if you're spamming it before he starts readying the skill. Therefor you have to coordinate with the other classes that can interrupt to pay attention to the skills they are using.

 

But what it ultimately boils down to is that FFXIV's combat pace works for FFXIV's encounters and TSW's combat pace works for it's encounters. And so on and so forth. So if you think that having a GCD for more skills/spells it less intense for an encounter I dare any of you to heal through a Titan HM fight or introduce yourself to AK's demon wall.


"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  Kajidourden

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/20/13
Posts: 282

11/20/13 9:58:29 PM#34
Originally posted by ZizouX

GCD is intertwined with encounter design.

 

On Titan Hardmode, I barely have enough time to use the skills I have.  The GCD was designed with the constant moving anticipated from boss attacks.

 

I prefer this combat system to Wow, where you're just spamming buttons as soon as they're off cooldown.  I also prefer this over GW2 because in 2, there was no strategy other than everyone avoiding their own red circles.  Some really cool combinations and class design but it wasn't strong enough for me to stay.  

 

Thre are plenty of people who prefer this combat system over twitchbased (wow) or action based (GW2/Tera).  The market is saturated with games that have a FAST COMBAT system.  you're more than welcome to play those games to your heart's content.

 

I like FFXIV as is.

100x this

slower?  yes

better?  hell yes

Its amazing how all the people who talk about not having consequences, challenege, etc etc in themeparks on other threads are the same ones knocking this combat.  

  Alamareth

Novice Member

Joined: 1/03/06
Posts: 574

11/20/13 10:39:05 PM#35

It starts off slow, it finishes almost faster than I'm able to keep up.

Yes, I'm talking about Twintania (hardest boss in game).  Timing is utterly critical.  Between stacking to spread damage, positioning conflags, killing adds, avoiding dive bombs, and mitigating/healing the whole raid - you are going to wish you had more time.

Oh, and I left off the hardest part of the battle.

That said, the difficulty curve on the game is pretty whacked out.  The entire game is mega easy until Titan HM.  Then you have to master basically one mechanic.  From there you refine all previous mechanics through Turn 4. 

Then you get hit in the face with a sledgehammer.  Makes me wonder what future content will be like.

  Ikkei

Novice Member

Joined: 8/26/10
Posts: 169

11/20/13 11:45:12 PM#36

It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

In my case, here's what I observed.

In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

This results in frustrating situations like:

  • Enemy starts casting something.
  • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
  • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
  • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
  • *healer heals you*

It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

  Stratagos

Novice Member

Joined: 2/02/10
Posts: 13

11/21/13 12:08:37 AM#37
Originally posted by Ikkei

It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

In my case, here's what I observed.

In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

This results in frustrating situations like:

  • Enemy starts casting something.
  • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
  • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
  • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
  • *healer heals you*

It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.

  Asm0deus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/06/10
Posts: 638

11/21/13 12:11:42 AM#38

The combat doesn't require skill or speed at endgame it requires learning the boss attacks, memorising them and moving ahead of time to avoid being hit.

 

That is it.  TBH I am surprised there are not scripts and bots for endgame yet. lol

 

I really enjoyed the story and leveling in the game but heh the endgame sucks and so does the lame lame combat mechanics. The global cooldown is a form of artificial and sucky method to make endgame "harder".

 

I have come to believe much of this design is either

A) they don't know how to code a MMO for the modern era.

or

B) the know their netcode sucks really bad and can't/don't want to fix it so designed the game around it.

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GPU: gtx msi N760 TF 2GD5/OC
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  drivendawn

Elite Member

Joined: 4/17/11
Posts: 784

11/21/13 12:19:21 AM#39
Originally posted by Stratagos
Originally posted by Ikkei

It kinda makes me laugh when people claim that combat is slow because you "need to think" or something. That just isn't true for the seasoned MMO player who knows quite instinctively what to do at any given time, in my humble opinion—your mileage may vary depending on your experience with MMOs and your skill/response time as a human.

In my case, here's what I observed.

In FF14 you find yourself often waiting on something. Instant abilities are not really instant, since you can't use them while another animation is ongoing (meaning you usually can't use them halfway through the GCD or even more). Furthermore once you click on an 'instant' ability in FF14, you still have to wait for the animation to happen before that ability's effect is applied.

This results in frustrating situations like:

  • Enemy starts casting something.
  • *smashing button of instant stun ability* — why the hell doesn't it fire?!
  • *smashing more* —"still not happening… come ooooon"
  • *reason why you wanted to use the ability now moot* — "ooh gosh another interrupt that I just couldn't do"
  • *healer heals you*

It often doesn't feel like you're in control of your character. I don't like that.

In the same vein, defensive cooldowns and temporary buffs in general must be used preemptively since there's usually no way you have enough time to use them unless you planned for it. There's no such thing as a "panic button", even if there are "panic skills". That lowers the adrenaline for me, since you find yourself either correctly predicting what's next, or helplessly watching you fail, your character always one step behind what you're thinking.

Furthermore there's no customisation whatsoever: you level up 2 other classes to level 25 and 35 respectively (which is nothing but a grind of FATEs), on the same character, to pick a 5 additional skills for your main class, but everyone takes the same sub-skills for a given class since there are only so many choices. 

Overall compared to other recent MMOs, the rotations (DD) and tanking/healing is as basic as it gets. There's one way to do it well and that's usually it (which prompts my earlier saying that there's not much to think about once you know your class well). It's a basic 3-step combo (press 1, 2, 3, rinse and repeat) for most classes. Granted, some have more interesting rotations (Black Mage, the primary caster; Monk, a melee class; Dragoon, another melee class; and Bard, a ranged bow-wielder), but it's nothing particularly better than other games.

Beyond this intended gameplay, there's the matter of server live-state latency with the client (see this post for a more comprehensive take on the matter). This results in your buffs sometimes not being registered in time, even if they were on your screen (you're always one step behind the server which runs the live-state, unlike most MMO), even bugs where activating several buffs too quickly will result in them going on cooldown but the effect not applying. 

Which brings us to the "memory game". Since your client is always a bit behind what's really happening in the game (server-side, pretty much all of it), in a way which is therefore aggravated by your internet latency to the server (ping), coupled with a positional check that only happens every .3 seconds (which is quite slow and is also aggravated by your ping, meaning you can easily reach .5s if you don't live close enough to the Canadian datacenter), the only way to clear the hardest encounters, which feature many OHKO (One-Hit Knock-Out) mechanics such as AoEs, is to memorise exactly the boss rotation. Bosses in FF14 usually don't do random stuff, they perform the exact same skills all the time, in the same exact order. This is how people in farm mode kill them quite easily, and actually manage to kill them in the first place. It's a memory game, much more than a reaction-based game, and it's obviously aggravated by the slow GCD.

If you think about it though, it does form a quite coherent whole, wherein you memorise stuff, then anticipate your own actions. If you happen to like that, it's arguable that the flow is nicely crafted. However that means little improvisation on your part, very generic encounters once you know them, since it's always more of the exact same.

The grind therefore gets quite tedious, as far as I'm concerned. Each boss, each dungeon, each raid is always exactly the same once you've mastered it. Down to trash mobs, you just know that this mob is going to do 'cone AoE', then hit twice, then 'cone AoE' again, and so on for each single mob and boss in most of the game. I've observed variations, sometimes, in lower level dungeons, but it's far from being an engaging enemy AI to me. Even WoW, which is a reference but certainly not a world of surprises, is much more dynamic and able to throw you off your game, in my personal experience (MoP). This especially shows in late-game encounters, where farming raids in WoW was fun for a much longer time than in FF14, if only because things get less predictable. I've cleared up to Coil T2, tried on T4, and thus can't really comment on T5 (the 4th and last raid boss of the game so far) since I haven't tried it before I left.

Initially when I tried this game in beta, I really enjoyed combat (level was limited to 20). I found it dynamic enough even with the slow GCD, and animations/effects are really beautiful (that's FF for you). But it gets old once you try to dig into a more complex perspective—or rather lack thereof. As time went by into release, reaching max level, I really found it less and less interesting.

Along with their network model, it's a reason why I left the game and don't really plan on going back, unless they drastically improve the responsiveness (don't know how unless they pour millions more into their code/architecture and take many months to achieve it), and revamp the class design to allow for more combat variety with each class, and more customisation.

It looks like I'm trashing the game but most of this is factual, I've tried to say when it was opinion. Admittedly, some players are enjoying combat in this game, but given the sheer fandom that surrounds Final Fantasy, I can't help but wonder how many of these players do actually really like this game's mechanics (should they appear in another game not called FF and without the lore, music and graphics of that franchise). As in, 'bias of confirmation', "It's FF thus it's great" (especially those who stuck with 1.0 even though it was universally admitted that it was just an awfully designed game). I do find puzzling the level of white-knight-ing when one tries to criticise this game; there's something just off about that. Compared to more obscure IPs, I mean.

To conclude, please don't take this as "the truth", because it's not, it's just my take—and please don't attack me for it. I would still recommend buying this game if you like FF and want to spend a month leveling and grinding some endgame stuff ($30 isn't that much for that, arguably). However, I'd cautious you against imagining that you're going to want to stick with it for a long time, because it might just not be true. Granted also, with more patches, and as I said, a good overhaul of some lacking designs and especially their netcode (which won't bother you much until you reach endgame), it could become a very good game. Right now combat and class design are not worth more than 5/10 for me however, compared to other MMOs. Probably less, actually. 

Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.

I would suggest finding out for yourself.

  BeansnBread

Elite Member

Joined: 9/19/06
Posts: 5432

11/21/13 12:33:30 AM#40
Originally posted by drivendawn
Originally posted by Stratagos

Seriously thinking about buying FF14:ARR, but this post is also seriously making me reconsider.

I would suggest finding out for yourself.

No, don't bother. That guy nailed it. I mean, normally with that much text I would toss it aside as some kind of a tirade. But everything he said was spot on. 

 

Actually, I think you should try it for yourself. It's only $30 and you can see just how spot on this guy was and analyze it for yourself.

SWTOR is the greatest mmo ever!

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