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Star Citizen

Star Citizen 

General Discussion  » Why Chris does not want a publisher

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35 posts found
  Shoko_Lied

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/07/07
Posts: 2086

SWG Publish 4 Jedi:Flurry: TKM unlock

10/26/13 10:54:21 PM#21
Originally posted by Swedish_Chef
Originally posted by morbuskabis

 


Originally posted by syriinx
article is just meant to glorify the process star citizen is using in order to get more contributions.  So take it with a grain of salt.

 

Such as complete and total bullshit like 'you can pull the wool over a publisher's eyes but not the players'.  That's Grade A bullshit right there, players are *very* easy to do this too.  In fact, I think its easier to manipulate someone with an emotional investment than a financial investment.

Not saying publisher's arent often (but not always) bad and I hope star citizen does well.


 

Thx for your info. So are working for EA, Activision, NC Soft or Ubisoft? Cause no one with a sane mind would defend publishers.

You do realize that without publishers providing money and direction, many of the games we enjoy today and in the past wouldn't have been possible, right? Try looking at the big picture instead of blindly hating on publishers because it's 'trendy' to throw around baseless hate for corporations these days. Like it or not, publishers are necessary. Not every dev team is capable of managing themselves; publishers keep them focused by providing clear goals and milestones. They provide development revenue, and (most importantly) marketing & distribution.

If Mr. Roberts really thinks that it's easier to hoodwink a publisher then it is a customer, then he's worked with some really stupid publishers.

Edit: Yeah, what Tawess said, lol.

His big publisher for Freelancer was Microsoft. That game released unfinished.

  ropenice

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/04
Posts: 574

10/26/13 11:11:43 PM#22
Originally posted by flizzer
Without publishers we wouldnt have some amazing games. Of course they are needed.  Since when is doing something for money and profit evil?   This old canard.      

It's not evil, but many of their decisions and pressures they put on devs make for crappy games (rushed, buggy, IP abuse or mechanics that make for a spg experience) . Their biz model now is to make money in the short term (so that investors get theirs quick and company heads, presidents and v-pres get to make their large quarterly bonuses) instead of creating a game that will make more in the long run, but not look as good on a quarterly report. Many businesses with investors and corp bonuses make decisions based on quarterly- year profits with no care for long-term planning (5-10 yr plans), which costs many jobs and business failings. They want to make big splash for 1st few - six months, get paid, then let game limp on for lessor profits while they move on to new game. Evil, no. But it sucks for the gamers and that is what pisses people off and makes them hate the publishers.

  someforumguy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/25/07
Posts: 3449

10/27/13 1:07:49 AM#23

Chris is manipulating players into supporting him with his silly "Unlike with a publisher, you can't pull the wool over their eyes because it's the real people who are going to be playing it,"

If there is anything that the later failed MMO's showed, is that (enough! ) players are easily fooled by hype. Whether this hype was caused by publishers or developers is besides the point here.

Not that I am defending publishers. As long as you realise that a publisher has different priorities (fast $$$, especially with the big ones) then a developer (creating an awesome game), then that should be enough to stay sceptical as gamer about upcoming releases.

And in this case, the developer becomes publisher too. So monetizing his game becomes a higher priority for him then if he were working for a publishing company. So imo it still doesn't change anything. No guarantee that the game will be any good or that they won't start nickle and dime the game.

  syriinx

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/24/13
Posts: 490

10/27/13 1:32:44 AM#24
Originally posted by someforumguy

Chris is manipulating players into supporting him with his silly "Unlike with a publisher, you can't pull the wool over their eyes because it's the real people who are going to be playing it,"

If there is anything that the later failed MMO's showed, is that (enough! ) players are easily fooled by hype. Whether this hype was caused by publishers or developers is besides the point here.

Not that I am defending publishers. As long as you realise that a publisher has different priorities (fast $$$, especially with the big ones) then a developer (creating an awesome game), then that should be enough to stay sceptical as gamer about upcoming releases.

And in this case, the developer becomes publisher too. So monetizing his game becomes a higher priority for him then if he were working for a publishing company. So imo it still doesn't change anything. No guarantee that the game will be any good or that they won't start nickle and dime the game.

And don't think that most developers don't prioritize making money over making a great game.

I think many developers make the mistake of listening too much to people.  Especially lower budget games.  Make the game YOU want to play.  If YOU want to play, theres bound to be tons of people that will want to play it also.  maybe with a 100 million plus game you can't have that attitude and have to make some concessions, but with a low or medium budget game just focus on making your game the way you want it.

  morbuskabis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 297

10/27/13 3:30:06 AM#25

Wow it seems that moste ppl here are all happy with the shity games that are preduced recently. So good for you that you can buy your game from your favorit publisher so they can make AC 10 and CoD 25.

It does explain quite a lot then. Quite happy I won't see any of you in SC. Have fun with your Xbox go home or ps4.

-Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty

  Thornz2000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/25/12
Posts: 139

 
OP  10/28/13 1:37:28 AM#26

Well the publishers are needed here and there for projects that do not have enough money to do it.

Ofc if you are using their money you need to make your game their way and on their time line for their max profits.

The bottom line of all this is making money. Big shocker there.

 

CR is making the game his way, on his time line and yes, to make money on his dream as well.

Only difference is unlike a publisher that will hack out many things to get the product out and money coming in. CR is adding  the detail that so many players want.  Also he is encouraging private servers and wants the community to mod SC in may ways too. This will assure longevity of SC.

So the publishers are a necessary at times.


 

 

 

The world we know is going away http://www.graystatemovie.com/
Look up Agenda 21 as well.

  jcrg99

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/13
Posts: 33

11/12/13 8:10:27 AM#27

It is not that "he did not want". It is more like they refused his idea. Let's put the thing in the right order here.

Publishers never would make enough money with Space Sims and CR just proved that, since they did not pass of 70.000 copies sold so far and probably has just 6 or 7 million dollars for real (since those numbers are clearly used for hype purposes only and he never would be capable to prove that numbers). But even if that number were truth, which they are not, still won't be enough to call attention of the publishers, at least big publishers, since CR look to the other side, by publishers that are beginners for example.

This talking about publishers, they used just for marketing, but they are so newbies in saying things, that they are got by their own words, since CR already say, for example, that the real reason to "PC Only" is more like not having good deals in Consoles and because by his own words "there is no competition on PC".

But, you know... Fans like to believe in fairy tales and marketing speech.

  Markusrind

Novice Member

Joined: 7/22/13
Posts: 284

11/12/13 8:17:42 AM#28
Originally posted by jcrg99

It is not that "he did not want". It is more like they refused his idea. Let's put the thing in the right order here.

Publishers never would make enough money with Space Sims and CR just proved that, since they did not pass of 70.000 copies sold so far and probably has just 6 or 7 million dollars for real (since those numbers are clearly used for hype purposes only and he never would be capable to prove that numbers). But even if that number were truth, which they are not, still won't be enough to call attention of the publishers, at least big publishers, since CR look to the other side, by publishers that are beginners for example.

This talking about publishers, they used just for marketing, but they are so newbies in saying things, that they are got by their own words, since CR already say, for example, that the real reason to "PC Only" is more like not having good deals in Consoles and because by his own words "there is no competition on PC".

But, you know... Fans like to believe in fairy tales and marketing speech.

I wish I knew what the fuck you are rambling on about....

  jcrg99

Novice Member

Joined: 11/12/13
Posts: 33

11/12/13 8:21:44 AM#29
Originally posted by Markusrind
Originally posted by jcrg99

It is not that "he did not want". It is more like they refused his idea. Let's put the thing in the right order here.

Publishers never would make enough money with Space Sims and CR just proved that, since they did not pass of 70.000 copies sold so far and probably has just 6 or 7 million dollars for real (since those numbers are clearly used for hype purposes only and he never would be capable to prove that numbers). But even if that number were truth, which they are not, still won't be enough to call attention of the publishers, at least big publishers, since CR look to the other side, by publishers that are beginners for example.

This talking about publishers, they used just for marketing, but they are so newbies in saying things, that they are got by their own words, since CR already say, for example, that the real reason to "PC Only" is more like not having good deals in Consoles and because by his own words "there is no competition on PC".

But, you know... Fans like to believe in fairy tales and marketing speech.

I wish I knew what the fuck you are rambling on about....

From Chris Roberts:

""I think the console business will be healthy for quite a while, I think the PC business, the tablet business, the mobile business, they'll all be healthy," Roberts said. "I think there's money to be made in all of them. I just like the PC business because there aren't a lot of people competing there.""

  yevoc42

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/27/08
Posts: 33

11/20/13 2:54:38 PM#30

As someone who's worked on both sides of the fence (gamedev and publisher), my experience resonates very much with Chris' statements. Granted, I didn't work for any super big publishers, but the idea was similar. Ironically, as a dev, I was far more insulated from public opinion on a game than when I worked on the publisher side, and I probably cared more about the games I was involved in when I was a publisher's lackey. That's not as sinister as you may think, as a dev, I was a server rules guy who "just needed to get things working," while I was knee deep in the marketing with the publishers.

HOWEVER, as a publisher, not a single dev studio appreciated us, and I can say that with confidence because we (publisher) were constantly manipulated and lied to, and once it even devolved into a legal battle. As a publisher, our big-wigs were very interested in the illusion that they could order the studios to do/make anything they wanted, and a great many times, we clearly dipped our hands into the game-sauce a bit too many times, as the fruit of our demands almost always ended up with watered-down implementations that clearly showed that either A) the studio was understaffed to handle it or B) didn't really want to do what we asked. Funnily enough, some of the dev veterans at the publisher outfit wanted to gather funds and pick up some of the dead games themselves. A few times that actually happened with games that you've probably heard of, but every last one of them fizzled or eeked out a painful existence because they simply didn't get enough funding to really do enough. At that point, it was more a love affair with a shell of a game that needed to be let go.

If you can get everyone on the same team/side/vision with enough resources (which never happened for me), that's the best chance you have at following through with a title. Virtually no game has the funding necessary to do absolutely everything on its own, so publishers almost always bring something to the table, but it obviously adds more cooks to the kitchen than devs would prefer. Star Citizen is wading into more or less uncharted waters with the kind of funding they've garnered, and it's the kind of waters that most of us in the industry would love to dive into.

Bottom line: Having a huge pile of money with no strings attached to do what you need really helps your chances. If they really do have enough to do it themselves ($27 million for everything they want to do? That's a stretch in my mind), then that's great. If they find themselves lacking near the end, I'm sure they can find a publisher. Even then, having the luxury of only seeking out venture capital when the game is virtually completed is still a great place to be.

  morbuskabis

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/05
Posts: 297

11/21/13 8:45:59 AM#31


Originally posted by yevoc42
As someone who's worked on both sides of the fence (gamedev and publisher), my experience resonates very much with Chris' statements. Granted, I didn't work for any super big publishers, but the idea was similar. Ironically, as a dev, I was far more insulated from public opinion on a game than when I worked on the publisher side, and I probably cared more about the games I was involved in when I was a publisher's lackey. That's not as sinister as you may think, as a dev, I was a server rules guy who "just needed to get things working," while I was knee deep in the marketing with the publishers.

HOWEVER, as a publisher, not a single dev studio appreciated us, and I can say that with confidence because we (publisher) were constantly manipulated and lied to, and once it even devolved into a legal battle. As a publisher, our big-wigs were very interested in the illusion that they could order the studios to do/make anything they wanted, and a great many times, we clearly dipped our hands into the game-sauce a bit too many times, as the fruit of our demands almost always ended up with watered-down implementations that clearly showed that either A) the studio was understaffed to handle it or B) didn't really want to do what we asked. Funnily enough, some of the dev veterans at the publisher outfit wanted to gather funds and pick up some of the dead games themselves. A few times that actually happened with games that you've probably heard of, but every last one of them fizzled or eeked out a painful existence because they simply didn't get enough funding to really do enough. At that point, it was more a love affair with a shell of a game that needed to be let go.

If you can get everyone on the same team/side/vision with enough resources (which never happened for me), that's the best chance you have at following through with a title. Virtually no game has the funding necessary to do absolutely everything on its own, so publishers almost always bring something to the table, but it obviously adds more cooks to the kitchen than devs would prefer. Star Citizen is wading into more or less uncharted waters with the kind of funding they've garnered, and it's the kind of waters that most of us in the industry would love to dive into.

Bottom line: Having a huge pile of money with no strings attached to do what you need really helps your chances. If they really do have enough to do it themselves ($27 million for everything they want to do? That's a stretch in my mind), then that's great. If they find themselves lacking near the end, I'm sure they can find a publisher. Even then, having the luxury of only seeking out venture capital when the game is virtually completed is still a great place to be.


Thanx for this post. Its interesting to see it from both sides.

ATM we are at $ 28,742,930 and keep counting. We hit prob $30 mill till the end of this year. As soon as the Dogfigth Module comes out, a big chunk of new backers will rush in (if its any good). Till release $40-50Million could be achieved. Thats quite some cash for a game without PR and licence to worry about. And after the sale they make 97.5% clear profit for every digital game they sell. That is quite impressive.

-Massive-Industries- Heavy Duty

  goboygo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/13
Posts: 261

11/21/13 8:55:55 AM#32
Originally posted by syriinx

article is just meant to glorify the process star citizen is using in order to get more contributions.  So take it with a grain of salt.

Such as complete and total bullshit like 'you can pull the wool over a publisher's eyes but not the players'.  That's Grade A bullshit right there, players are *very* easy to do this too.  In fact, I think its easier to manipulate someone with an emotional investment than a financial investment.

Not saying publisher's arent often (but not always) bad and I hope star citizen does well.

Syriinx, I see the point you are trying to make but it doesn't apply in the context the Chris is trying to use it in.  In your context you are talking about short term.  Is it easier to trick a gamer into buying a crappy game initially than it is to convince a huge publisher that your vision unique idea is going to make a ton of money?  Yes it is and In this case you are correct.  But that's not the context of Chris's statement.

What he means buy this statement is that after the product is shipped you cant fool gamers.  They will know instantly whether you have a good product or not.  Investors after launch on the other hand can be convinced that a terrible game can be saved and to keep investing in it.  Many developers have found investment capital to keep bad games running even if less and less people are playing it.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1825

11/21/13 9:00:26 AM#33
Originally posted by flizzer
Without publishers we wouldnt have some amazing games. Of course they are needed.  Since when is doing something for money and profit evil?   This old canard.      

Since greed took over how business is done anymore.  I am not at all religious, but even I would consider greed to be evil.

  goboygo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/02/13
Posts: 261

11/21/13 9:16:13 AM#34
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by flizzer
Without publishers we wouldnt have some amazing games. Of course they are needed.  Since when is doing something for money and profit evil?   This old canard.      

Since greed took over how business is done anymore.  I am not at all religious, but even I would consider greed to be evil.

You may be too young to recall flizzer, but there was a time when all games were made by gamers for gamers and were either given away or sold with the hope of only making a small profit.  They would of made and distributed them anyway.  And at that point in time they were as you put it "amazing games".

Its al relevant my friend.

But today that is not the case, larger developers make games for one reason and one reason only to keep the corporation running.  There is nothing wrong with it, its just a fact.

The take away here is that the reason that most games are made today are DIFFERENT then when games were first programmed.

  Vorthanion

Elite Member

Joined: 7/02/11
Posts: 1825

11/22/13 11:40:30 AM#35
Originally posted by goboygo
Originally posted by Vorthanion
Originally posted by flizzer
Without publishers we wouldnt have some amazing games. Of course they are needed.  Since when is doing something for money and profit evil?   This old canard.      

Since greed took over how business is done anymore.  I am not at all religious, but even I would consider greed to be evil.

You may be too young to recall flizzer, but there was a time when all games were made by gamers for gamers and were either given away or sold with the hope of only making a small profit.  They would of made and distributed them anyway.  And at that point in time they were as you put it "amazing games".

Its al relevant my friend.

But today that is not the case, larger developers make games for one reason and one reason only to keep the corporation running.  There is nothing wrong with it, its just a fact.

The take away here is that the reason that most games are made today are DIFFERENT then when games were first programmed.

There is a huge difference between keeping your company in the black versus cutting corners and reducing quality in order to maximize profits that you neither earn nor deserve.  Today's gaming companies are hardly going to go into the red, let alone go bankrupt by making a truly quality product.  History has proven that long term profits are far better for a company than short term profits, unless you're a CEO who only wants a few years of huge bonus checks before you move on to leach the next project or company.

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