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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is denial of Cheaters in competitive gaming, a defense mechanism?

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72 posts found
  Joker1977

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 43

 
OP  11/14/13 7:16:16 PM#1

[mod edit]

I can only wonder, "Why do people deny the obvious?"

What benefit is it to them, to deny that there are more cheaters than they will ever realize?

Why insult others who point out this fact, as if they're complaining? It is not a complaint to simply say "Cheaters exist. It's a fact." yet you will be insulted by those in denial. Why?

 

For as long as video games have been invented, there have been cheaters.

Whether it's a gold-duping bug or buying from chinese gold farmers, players in MMORPG's have hoarded gold with little effort.

Whether it's an aim bot, wall hack, or retexturing of models, FPS games have had cheaters.

Whether it's the ever notorious Punkbuster or a custom built anti-cheat software, it is always 1 step behind cheaters.

Whether or not you ban someone, is nothing more than a joke ever since the idea of a proxy was invented. Cheaters who can recover back to their former glory with a new account, because they are cheaters and it's easy.

 

 

You cannot deny this fact.

Hell, you want to talk about cheating? Developers don't even care anymore.

Take a look at Payday 2, a game that just released. Players can literally press "INSERT" on their keyboard while in a mission, and instantly get up to level 100. A feat which often requires over 100 hours of gameplay.

Granted it's not as big of a deal as cheating in a competitive game like a MMORPG, but the inclusion of Client-Side hit detection with little verification in Planetside 2, is quite laughable. Yes, they did it to help with performance. However, cheating is quite rampant. I say this not from my own experience, but by the simple fact that certain games designed certain ways will make cheating easier: such as client-side game logic.

 

Yet even in "professional" tournaments, people cheat.

(Exerpt) "One team was cleared of all misconduct, three were issued warnings for unsportsmanlike conduct, and Korean team Azubu Frost was fined 20% of its winnings."

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/14/13 7:22:53 PM#2

 It's quite simple as to why developers don't care anymore. They can't win and they'll never win. To compete against a hacker who's breaking into their game they have to pay money. A hacker isn't hired to hack a program they do it for free and then are able to sell the cheat(s) to people who want to exploit the game.

 While I know that developers for the most part have given up on defeating them with anti-cheat software. I wonder why they haven't actually just used a MAC address ban to get rid of the majority of cheaters. Most people don't know how to spoof a MAC address so it'll be easy to get rid of the riff raff that buy their way into cheating. This can also be done with people who are botting in MMORPGs.

 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Nephelai

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/29/13
Posts: 132

11/14/13 7:27:30 PM#3

He has a point.

 

Back in my Quake days I was pretty good with the Railgun and almost every night I had to put up with people calling me a bot. There are two types of players - good players who can spot genuine cheating and bad players who assume everyone that beats them is a bot. In my experience there are orders of magnitude more of the latter which are the ones in denial.

 

 

 

  Joker1977

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 43

 
OP  11/14/13 7:28:40 PM#4
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 It's quite simple as to why developers don't care anymore. They can't win and they'll never win. To compete against a hacker who's breaking into their game they have to pay money. A hacker isn't hired to hack a program they do it for free and then are able to sell the cheat(s) to people who want to exploit the game.

 While I know that developers for the most part have given up on defeating them with anti-cheat software. I wonder why they haven't actually just used a MAC address ban to get rid of the majority of cheaters. Most people don't know how to spoof a MAC address so it'll be easy to get rid of the riff raff that buy their way into cheating. This can also be done with people who are botting in MMORPGs.

 

I completely agree that banning MAC addresses would be much better than banning a changeable or spoofable IP address, it would not take very long for the cheating software to include a simple button to change your MAC address.

I fully understand cheating, and the fun or giggles you can have while cheating. However, I don't understand why cheaters in competitive games (like the FPS genre) would share their cheats. If I had to program all of that by myself, I would most likely not share it with anyone but my close friends.

Oh wait... money. I forget they probably make money from releasing the cheats. Nevermind.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3641

11/14/13 7:30:13 PM#5

What % of cheaters actually cheated and what % are the "defense mechanism" of the guy who just lost.

Cheating in mmos is about as common as lag causing a death ;)

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/14/13 7:34:46 PM#6

 I've personally quit FPS games all together due to the high amount of cheaters that run rampant in these games. It's disgusting how many people feel the need to cheat. If I do play a FPS I typically do LANs with friends that I know don't cheat. It seems that's the only way for me to have fun with these games. For things like MMOs a hacker typically isn't very bothersome. Botting for the most part is easily about to be ignored and most botting programs are easy enough to break by screwing up the way they work. By stealing their kills or hording monsters to the botter.

 It's quite a shame that I've left FPSs because I'm quite fond of them. I use to play with a few competitive teams for league based matches like CAL or TWL. But I've moved on because of the rampant amount of cheaters. It doesn't even have to be a hack to cheat the system I know for a fact that even several of my own team mates were disqualified from a competition for using hardware that would give them an advantage over their opponent. Like a mouse that would allow for rapid shooting.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  muffins89

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1247

11/14/13 7:35:20 PM#7
people cheat cause it's fun to win.  (at least for a while).  it all started with the konami code and game genie.  blame Nintendo.

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  Joker1977

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 43

 
OP  11/14/13 7:35:42 PM#8
Originally posted by Nephelai

He has a point.

 

Back in my Quake days I was pretty good with the Railgun and almost every night I had to put up with people calling me a bot. There are two types of players - good players who can spot genuine cheating and bad players who assume everyone that beats them is a bot. In my experience there are orders of magnitude more of the latter which are the ones in denial.

I actually don't find it to be very common for people to be accused of cheating. Even when I have had or played with people who have scores like 60:2, it isn't a common complaint that they're cheating. If it is, the player simply accuses them once before rage quitting.

You're definitely right about there being a huge difference though. Good players can easily spot cheaters, because those players who are good can get utterly dominated by cheaters in a way that no real player ever could.

I can always tell if the person is a good player or a cheater, based on the extent at which they're better than me. Being someone who has played for so long and actually played against tournament players, it's a world of difference. Playing against a tournament player, you lose, but it's not a facepalm loss. In fact, a good player can actually geek them a few times even if they ultimately lose. That is because pro players are not enormously advanced beyond good players, they are just better than them by a bit, or if a great player maybe by double or triple at most.

Meanwhile, cheaters are not "twice as good" or triple the skill of a great player. They are 10x-100x faster, 10x more accurate, 10x more damaging, 10x more predicting, etc. When a great player fights a pro tourny player and loses by about 1:2, and then fights someone and loses by 0:10, it's pretty obvious. It is highly unlikely that the latter is the world's best pro player, and just happens to have never entered any tournaments.

 

What gets me sometimes though, are stealthy cheaters. Those who cheat, but do so intelligently so as to not get reported. They turn their cheating on/off. Sometimes you can tell, by how absolutely awful they are with their cheats off, while how amazing they are with them on. Once accused, they turn it off immediately and play normally, maybe even dying on purpose to avoid suspicion. I find it humorous sometimes when I discover how bad they actually are. "Wow, really? No wonder you cheat, lol." That, and sometimes they will tell you what program they use when you chat them up after becoming friends :P

I remember back in the 90's, everyone had cheats even if they didn't use them. If they spotted a cheater, they would turn on their cheats to compete with the cheater. It was kindof interesting, as the other cheater would usually leave because their cheats no longer gave them an advantage.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/14/13 7:38:48 PM#9
Originally posted by Joker1977
Originally posted by Mtibbs1989

 It's quite simple as to why developers don't care anymore. They can't win and they'll never win. To compete against a hacker who's breaking into their game they have to pay money. A hacker isn't hired to hack a program they do it for free and then are able to sell the cheat(s) to people who want to exploit the game.

 While I know that developers for the most part have given up on defeating them with anti-cheat software. I wonder why they haven't actually just used a MAC address ban to get rid of the majority of cheaters. Most people don't know how to spoof a MAC address so it'll be easy to get rid of the riff raff that buy their way into cheating. This can also be done with people who are botting in MMORPGs.

 

I completely agree that banning MAC addresses would be much better than banning a changeable or spoofable IP address, it would not take very long for the cheating software to include a simple button to change your MAC address.

I fully understand cheating, and the fun or giggles you can have while cheating. However, I don't understand why cheaters in competitive games (like the FPS genre) would share their cheats. If I had to program all of that by myself, I would most likely not share it with anyone but my close friends.

Oh wait... money. I forget they probably make money from releasing the cheats. Nevermind.

  I know for a fact that the vast majority of players people play against (who are cheating) bought their hacks online. Most people aren't smart enough to do such things. So it's easy to say that many of the people you're playing against are just sore losers tired of losing who's just looking for a way to grief everyone else.

 Unfortunately you're probably right about the hackers adding a feature that'll simply spoof a MAC address.

 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Joker1977

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 43

 
OP  11/14/13 7:40:12 PM#10
Originally posted by DamonVile

What % of cheaters actually cheated and what % are the "defense mechanism" of the guy who just lost.

Cheating in mmos is about as common as lag causing a death ;)

Lag is actually a lot more common than most people realize.

 

I remember a friend bragging about how "This server we moved to, is lag free!" and would always say things like "There is no lag LOL it's lag free."

Unfortunately, he just couldn't tell the difference between 50ms and 20ms. I however, definitely could. Hell, my scores could tell you. I tried to explain to him how it's similar to console games where the host has 0ms, because he admitted that the host always had a huge advantage in those games. It didn't work, as he still acted like there was no lag.

I read forums all the time about people saying stuff like,

 

"I don't have lag, and it says 300ms."

"I don't lag at all, it's super smooth. I'm running at 22fps."

 

That kind of stuff kills me. Unfortunately, they don't know how truly different it is when you run <20ms and >60fps. There is a reason that scores correlate strongly with latency.

 

So to you I say: You may jest, but you probably fail to realize how lag truly does cause death in MMO's as much as cheaters thrive in some games.

 

If you don't believe me, try doing some research. Log into random FPS servers (a genre where latency matters the most) where you can view people's pings. Now, record all of the data- K:D ratio, to Ping. If you want, include Score total or exclude camping snipers (outliers). It won't really matter.

After awhile the data will show that on average, those with lower latency will tend to have a higher score.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3641

11/14/13 7:44:16 PM#11
Originally posted by Joker1977
 

 

You're definitely right about there being a huge difference though. Good players can easily spot cheaters, because those players who are good can get utterly dominated by cheaters in a way that no real player ever could.

I can always tell if the person is a good player or a cheater, based on the extent at which they're better than me. Being someone who has played for so long and actually played against tournament players, it's a world of difference. Playing against a tournament player, you lose, but it's not a facepalm loss. In fact, a good player can actually geek them a few times even if they ultimately lose. That is because pro players are not enormously advanced beyond good players, they are just better than them by a bit, or if a great player maybe by double or triple at most.

Meanwhile, cheaters are not "twice as good" or triple the skill of a great player. They are 10x-100x faster, 10x more accurate, 10x more damaging, 10x more predicting, etc. When a great player fights a pro tourny player and loses by about 1:2, and then fights someone and loses by 0:10, it's pretty obvious.

 

The only flaw with that is, your avg player thinks they're above avg. Just about every person you fight thinks they're avg or better. 70+% of them think they're better than avg.

So how does a "good" player judge skill when they can't accurately judge their own.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Joker1977

Novice Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 43

 
OP  11/14/13 7:49:18 PM#12
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Joker1977
 

 

You're definitely right about there being a huge difference though. Good players can easily spot cheaters, because those players who are good can get utterly dominated by cheaters in a way that no real player ever could.

I can always tell if the person is a good player or a cheater, based on the extent at which they're better than me. Being someone who has played for so long and actually played against tournament players, it's a world of difference. Playing against a tournament player, you lose, but it's not a facepalm loss. In fact, a good player can actually geek them a few times even if they ultimately lose. That is because pro players are not enormously advanced beyond good players, they are just better than them by a bit, or if a great player maybe by double or triple at most.

Meanwhile, cheaters are not "twice as good" or triple the skill of a great player. They are 10x-100x faster, 10x more accurate, 10x more damaging, 10x more predicting, etc. When a great player fights a pro tourny player and loses by about 1:2, and then fights someone and loses by 0:10, it's pretty obvious.

 

The only flaw with that is, your avg player thinks they're above avg. Just about every person you fight thinks they're avg or better. 70+% of them think they're better than avg.

So how does a "good" player judge skill when they can't accurately judge their own.

What research or study do you have that proves, or even suggests, that "just about every person you fight thinks they're average or better."?

From what I see, there are a lot of people who make statements like, "Wow lol, I really suck today." or "Sorry guys, I'm new so I suck."

 

In relation to my less skilled friends: When my friends do bad, they understand they're doing bad. When they do better than normal, they understand they're still not very good. They do not have this supposed "illusion of better than average" that you claim exists among "just about every person".

 

Also, how did you come up with the number 70%?

 

Once I understand the research, I will then be better able to form a rebuttal and answer your question. I'm a bit lost without it.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5357

I dare you to pin a label on me.

11/14/13 7:52:09 PM#13

People do cheat, but its not very common, and its usually fairly easy to spot if you're an experienced gamer.

EDIT: Exploits are a lot more common than real cheating.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/14/13 7:55:09 PM#14
Originally posted by Joker1977
Originally posted by Nephelai

He has a point.

 

Back in my Quake days I was pretty good with the Railgun and almost every night I had to put up with people calling me a bot. There are two types of players - good players who can spot genuine cheating and bad players who assume everyone that beats them is a bot. In my experience there are orders of magnitude more of the latter which are the ones in denial.

I actually don't find it to be very common for people to be accused of cheating. Even when I have had or played with people who have scores like 60:2, it isn't a common complaint that they're cheating. If it is, the player simply accuses them once before rage quitting.

You're definitely right about there being a huge difference though. Good players can easily spot cheaters, because those players who are good can get utterly dominated by cheaters in a way that no real player ever could.

I can always tell if the person is a good player or a cheater, based on the extent at which they're better than me. Being someone who has played for so long and actually played against tournament players, it's a world of difference. Playing against a tournament player, you lose, but it's not a facepalm loss. In fact, a good player can actually geek them a few times even if they ultimately lose. That is because pro players are not enormously advanced beyond good players, they are just better than them by a bit, or if a great player maybe by double or triple at most.

Meanwhile, cheaters are not "twice as good" or triple the skill of a great player. They are 10x-100x faster, 10x more accurate, 10x more damaging, 10x more predicting, etc. When a great player fights a pro tourny player and loses by about 1:2, and then fights someone and loses by 0:10, it's pretty obvious.

 

What gets me sometimes though, are stealthy cheaters. Those who cheat, but do so intelligently so as to not get reported. They turn their cheating on/off. Sometimes you can tell, by how absolutely awful they are with their cheats off, while how amazing they are with them on. That, and sometimes they will tell you what program they use when you chat them up after becoming friends :P

I remember back in the 90's, everyone had cheats even if they didn't use them. If they spotted a cheater, they would turn on their cheats to compete with the cheater. It was kindof interesting, as the other cheater would usually leave because their cheats no longer gave them an advantage.

  I use to love how skilled I was at playing FPSs. I've personally been banned from many servers on COD:MW for false accusations and use to take pride in it. I remember one of the last times I played a FPS was in COD:MW. I use to go into a specific server quite frequently and whenever I went into that server I knew I was being watch after a few minutes because one of their admins/moderators would log off after a short period of time. After about 30-45 minutes they pulled me aside and claimed I was cheating based on the rate in which I was moving my camera around. They stated that they, "felt drunk while watching my screen" when they stated that I got a nice little chuckle out of it. Eventually they banned me from their server because they didn't like significant difference in skill level.

  Anyways, you're absolutely right about a good player who's able to spot a cheater vs. an extremely skilled player. Hackers typically fire their guns in exact locations; typically aiming at the head for the quickest kill.

  It's also easy to tell who's a cheater by gauging how soon someone pre-fires before turning a corner. Things like a Chameleon hack or X-ray hack allow the hacker to be able to see through objects to predict exactly where someone's at on the map. 

 


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 3641

11/14/13 7:57:36 PM#15

I in no way think this is scientific or accurate, but I have asked it many many...many times over the years on forums I frequent and it's always the same basic trend. The above avg votes are always the lions share of votes. It's just human nature to think that way. If you ignore what people actually vote and look at above and below the middle point it's kind of funny to see the results, but not unexpected.

I've also asked the opposite question " what do you think the avg gamers skill lvl is " and it's always the same as well. Poor or below avg. ( it's a trick question of course because the skill lvl is...avg. :) )

Avg is of course a meaningless term because I never give it any type of defining level. I just want to know what people think of themselves not what their actual skill level is.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/399599/page/1

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/14/13 8:01:54 PM#16
Originally posted by DamonVile

I in no way think this is scientific or accurate, but I have asked it many many...many times over the years on forums I frequent and it's always the same basic trend. The above avg votes are always the lions share of votes. It's just human nature to think that way. If you ignore what people actually vote and look at above and below the middle point it's kind of funny to see the results, but not unexpected.

I've also asked the opposite question " what do you think the avg gamers skill lvl is " and it's always the same as well. Poor or below avg. ( it's a trick question of course because the skill lvl is...avg. :) )

Avg is of course a meaningless term because I never give it any type of defining level. I just want to know what people think of themselves not what their actual skill level is.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/399599/page/1

  True, it's one thing to click a button and blatantly state, "I'm better than everyone" without any evidence. However, if that same said person can back their claim as to why/how they're better than the average person then you cannot deny that they're actually better than the average gamer.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5357

I dare you to pin a label on me.

11/14/13 8:02:06 PM#17
Originally posted by DamonVile

I in no way think this is scientific or accurate, but I have asked it many many...many times over the years on forums I frequent and it's always the same basic trend. The above avg votes are always the lions share of votes. It's just human nature to think that way. If you ignore what people actually vote and look at above and below the middle point it's kind of funny to see the results, but not unexpected.

I've also asked the opposite question " what do you think the avg gamers skill lvl is " and it's always the same as well. Poor or below avg. ( it's a trick question of course because the skill lvl is...avg. :) )

Avg is of course a meaningless term because I never give it any type of defining level. I just want to know what people think of themselves not what their actual skill level is.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/399599/page/1

In any game with a ranking or tracking system, there is no confusion who's average and who's not. If your win% is less than 50%, you are less than average. If you are fighting in the bronze league, you are less than average.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Mtibbs1989

Elite Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2230

11/14/13 8:05:17 PM#18
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by DamonVile

I in no way think this is scientific or accurate, but I have asked it many many...many times over the years on forums I frequent and it's always the same basic trend. The above avg votes are always the lions share of votes. It's just human nature to think that way. If you ignore what people actually vote and look at above and below the middle point it's kind of funny to see the results, but not unexpected.

I've also asked the opposite question " what do you think the avg gamers skill lvl is " and it's always the same as well. Poor or below avg. ( it's a trick question of course because the skill lvl is...avg. :) )

Avg is of course a meaningless term because I never give it any type of defining level. I just want to know what people think of themselves not what their actual skill level is.

 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/399599/page/1

In any game with a ranking or tracking system, there is no confusion who's average and who's not. If your win% is less than 50%, you are less than average. If you are fighting in the bronze league, you are less than average.

  If you're comparing skill based off of a ranking system like League of Legends. Please never use that as an example as the ELO system is based off of the ranking system for Chess. By using a system like ELO to rank a team based game it shows no accurate statistical information for a single players individual skill level.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  Aison2

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/11/05
Posts: 580

11/14/13 8:06:55 PM#19
Who denies it? Aside from the company most competitive players actually discuss cheaters. Of course the companies dont like it cause its bad PR but the players in general dont mind talking about it.

Pi*1337/100 = 42

  Loktofeit

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11358

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, ESO, and Combat Arms

11/14/13 8:10:25 PM#20
I think goldtoof's assessment is right. You're probably just bad at FPS.

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