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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Time and Money: how we are robbed and ruined by MMO companies

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255 posts found
  Precusor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 4723

Aim Bot

11/12/13 6:06:36 AM#121
F2p mmos now charging for beta testing is unbelievable.
  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

11/12/13 6:09:41 AM#122

I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted.

 

Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly™ & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it?

 

And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth.

 

Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem...

 

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

 

/facepalm/peelfaceoff

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 513

11/12/13 6:12:00 AM#123

So basically

In pass : pay money to play the game and get fun from it

Current : Pay money to win the game and get ??? from it

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2772

There... are... four... lights!

11/12/13 6:13:21 AM#124
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Precusor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 4723

Aim Bot

11/12/13 6:15:01 AM#125
Originally posted by iixviiiix

So basically

In pass : pay money to play the game and get fun from it

Current : Pay money to win the game and get ??? from it

that's the direction allot of these mmos are heading.

  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

11/12/13 6:21:39 AM#126
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.

Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.

 

I think my point was made well enough.

  RabidMouth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 194

11/12/13 6:22:44 AM#127
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted.

 

Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly™ & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it?

 

And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth.

 

Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem...

 

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

 

/facepalm/peelfaceoff

I can see them trying this. They already paid for Dez Bryant to have his own babysitters to keep him out of trouble.

 

To draw back to the main point, money will almost always give you an unfair advantage. It's a sad fact of reality, but a sad fact all the same. It makes the world go round.

These companies are here to make money, and in the end that is all they really care about. You can say the same for any business.

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2772

There... are... four... lights!

11/12/13 6:23:11 AM#128
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.

Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.

 

I think my point was made well enough.

You analogy was completely flawed - since professional sport is quite a lot about big money.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Incomparable

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/11/11
Posts: 764

11/12/13 6:25:07 AM#129

I think a lot of people trying to say its in our power to not play, are ignoring an important aspect of democracy and lobbying our opinions.

See the thing is, a business, can be very powerful when its support comes from something that is not going to forward our interest in games for example, and also exploits certain elements which are not defined as unethical.

For example, teen rated MMOs exploit teenagers that have a lot of time on thier hand. Also MMOs have a unique advantage now compared to before. They can get a demographic from billions of potential customers with varying tastes. So hoping that supply and demand play a role to shape a game to all our interests is not going to happen... 1. MMOs exploit teenagers, and 2. The potential market is so huge that they just follow a certain established standard of video gaming which unfortunately is becoming less enjoyable and they will be profitable.

The MMO genre does not follow the same scrutiny as other businesses, and that is the major problem imo.

They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.

If MMOs are not held to a certain standard like other businesses then we would all be worse off in the world. However, these standards help everyone in the end. It might have a greater cost to a business but in the end if society benefits, everyone benefits including businesses that want to be part of a long contributing future instead of leeching on to whatever scraps are available.

“Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  RabidMouth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/17/13
Posts: 194

11/12/13 6:26:59 AM#130
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.

Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.

 

I think my point was made well enough.

You analogy was completely flawed - since professional sport is quite a lot about big money.

Even college sports is about big money. It isnt supposed to be, but it is all the same.

You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

  Jean-Luc_Picard

Elite Member

Joined: 1/10/13
Posts: 2772

There... are... four... lights!

11/12/13 6:27:33 AM#131
Originally posted by Incomparable

They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.

Or maybe parents should take their responsibilities and start to watch what their teenager is doing for hours and hours on his computer instead of doing homework or other things?

But Internet and video games are a very convenient babysitter... doesn't cost much, and gets rid of those pesky annoying kids.

Playing now: Archeage, WoW, Landmark, GW2

Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO and GW2.

"The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.

  Monamia222

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/04/10
Posts: 52

11/12/13 6:28:38 AM#132
Originally posted by Elikal

Look, the point is this: Back in Everquest II I became noble and "Sir" Elikal after years of hard work IN THE GAME. I did a lot of status quests for my guild. Now in EQ Landmarks you BUY a title for $90. THAT is what is plain wrong, because games SHOULD NOT BE about how much money you have, but how good, patient and dedicated IN the game you are.

Being able to BUY all that stuff makes it worthless and ruins all sense of accomplishment!

Actually, you could say this about real life also and it would be just as true.

  Aldous.Huxley

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/04/13
Posts: 443

11/12/13 6:29:13 AM#133
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

This line is actually like shooting in your own foot... since it's well know that sport clubs trade their best players for huge amounts of money. So yeah, those "Dallas Cowboys" (or any other sport club) "Pays to Win" by having the money to get the best players to play for them instead of the opponents.

Which is why I said "extra player", but I'm a salary cap kind of 'fan' anyway.

 

I think my point was made well enough.

You analogy was completely flawed - since professional sport is quite a lot about big money.

You can focus on that tiny little piece of the post if you like but it in no way discredits the information contained within. [mod edit]

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2528

11/12/13 6:35:32 AM#134


Originally posted by Aldous.Huxley
I completely understand what the OP is talking about & I have plenty of capital to burn on MMO's if I wanted.

 

Consider this. You've been playing Monopoly™ & all of the sudden the rules change & there is now an exchange rate to buy in game currency. Kind of changes the game dynamic, doesn't it?

 

And people wonder why RMT, bots, hackers, gold sellers & spammers run rampant in games these days. Too many lazy fat-cats would rather buy their way into 'leet status' than earn it like they had to in the old days. That's the real truth.

 

Fair play & having a level playing field is a dead concept, it would seem...

 

Perhaps the Dallas Cowboys will pay a fee to have an extra player on the field this season...

 

/facepalm/peelfaceoff


But how come it came so far then to piont you discribe games status?.. i started play mmo's sinds '99 and not spent 1 eurocent ever on DLC OR CASHSHOPS.

Is the group i belong to so small?

It seems so becouse many who claim hating everything involved cashshops or RMT hate it but still playing them lol(know few gamers who hate casshops but still playing and spent money on cashshops lol).

Its indeed long gone the times that players dont mind timesink-difficulty to earn there satus and gear actually playing for it.

Thats why i abandon GW2 early this year and play solo games.

Im amazed how easy people spending more on games then in subcription era but with less depth and easy gameplay just so they brag about that they have bought(not accomplished but bought) its all beyond me.

Well have fun guys buying your way to top.

GAMEOVER!

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OS:Windows 8.1 64bit

  zymurgeist

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/24/04
Posts: 5186

11/12/13 6:37:15 AM#135
Originally posted by Incomparable

I think a lot of people trying to say its in our power to not play, are ignoring an important aspect of democracy and lobbying our opinions.

See the thing is, a business, can be very powerful when its support comes from something that is not going to forward our interest in games for example, and also exploits certain elements which are not defined as unethical.

For example, teen rated MMOs exploit teenagers that have a lot of time on thier hand. Also MMOs have a unique advantage now compared to before. They can get a demographic from billions of potential customers with varying tastes. So hoping that supply and demand play a role to shape a game to all our interests is not going to happen... 1. MMOs exploit teenagers, and 2. The potential market is so huge that they just follow a certain established standard of video gaming which unfortunately is becoming less enjoyable and they will be profitable.

The MMO genre does not follow the same scrutiny as other businesses, and that is the major problem imo.

They should not be allowed to design systems that when working as intended waste peoples time to ad infinitum. Especially when it is supported by teenagers, having their youth exploited.

If MMOs are not held to a certain standard like other businesses then we would all be worse off in the world. However, these standards help everyone in the end. It might have a greater cost to a business but in the end if society benefits, everyone benefits including businesses that want to be part of a long contributing future instead of leeching on to whatever scraps are available.

Hello, we're the Government and we're here to help you. By forcing you to pay for the things you don't want and forbidding the things you do want.

 

 Has it ever occurred to you that games are the way they are because people want them that way? If they didn't there would be no money in it. Capitalism is Democracy. What you're asking for is Tyranny. If the cost of freedom is games I don't like I'll use that freedom to chose not to play them. See how that works?

"Strong and bitter words indicate a weak cause" ~Victor Hugo

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/12/13 8:08:53 AM#136
Originally posted by Lobotomist

I am actually started thinking of how to purge my system from them.

Step 1: Log off the forums.

Step 2: Dunno, never made it to step 2.

 

But OP: What you're doing here is equivalent to complaining about how hard it is to stop using crack while sitting in a crack house.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12278

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

11/12/13 8:34:46 AM#137
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
Originally posted by Loktofeit

How much freer than FREE does the game have to be for poor people to play?

Aye, and it's even more fascinating when you consider that the OP praises the old subscription based model in his thread title post, which involved buying the initial box, paying a fee every month (or you can't play at all) and paying for each expansion.

At least in a F2P game, a person with low income can still play even if he can't pay anything a specific month. Seems way more "poor friendly" to me than the old model.

Yes but his argument was never the cost or that it should be free ( or not free enough ) It's that he doesn't want the different pay scales and all the things that come with paying more vrs paying less.

Right now we see a range from $20-100 and most gamers are fine with it. That doesn't mean we wont start to see those numbers go up. When they do what do they start to offer ?  I don't want to bring pay to win into this but if we become desensitized to it, they will add it if it brings in more money.

I do kind of empathize with him but it's just a fact in life that people with money will always have more toys.

It can only go up if players want it to. It's only where it is because players want it there.

Which is the more likely scenario:

1)

  • Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
  • Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
  • Dev 1: "Go for it."
  • Players: "Oh! That's stuff I want at a price I am willing to pay. I will buy that."

 

2)

  • Dev 1: "Make packages valued at X, Y and Z"
  • Dev2: "OK, to do that, the players will want A, B and C in it them in order for them to consider it worth it."
  • Dev 1: "Nah. Except for those seven industry-savvy business mavens at MMORPG.com that think every gamer is a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot except them, everyone IS a frikken weak-willed addicted idiot. Put out crap and make them buy it!"
  • Players: "I - am - stupid. Must - buy - thing - simply - because - it - exists."

To all but the magnificent seven here, it's obviously the first one. As for empathizing for him, that's ridiculous. It's the most entitled and self-centered view I've ever seen come out of a gamer over the age of five. He's talking about the ALPHA for a video game, not even the game itself, because that's FREE. He's upset others get to play a video game before him because they have money and he's just an unemployed artist.

Look, it's all fine and good to take his post as if it is an altruistic plea for peace/love/equality posted in a vaccuum, but if you look at his post history, he's been going on about how the rich get to be rich in game and the poor are stuck being poor in game for quite a few threads now. That angle wasn't working for him, so he took the shotgun approach in this one including the How can you waste your life playing video games? appeal and the ever-lovable Where is the equality? angle. That last one got traction because, unlike the first, it allows people to point outward rather than look inward.

His argument has always been that he feels it's unfair that people with more money have more things than him. Flat out saying that hasn't really worked for him, so the laundry list of appeals showed up in the gem of an OP we have here in hopes that one sticks. Don't take my word for it, look at his post history.

 

Next year he can play a multimillion dollar game for FREE, but he doesn't want to wait until then and he finds it unfair that people with money can play it before him. THAT is exactly his argument and if you actually look at his post history and his video, everything else is fluff to garner sympathy for his cause - he feels it's unfair that other people have games that he wants because they have the money to buy it, even though he will still get it for FREE just at a later date.

Dude, that stuff is coming from an ADULT! That's the mind-blowing part. You look at his video and he isn't eight years old or anything... he's an adult saying this. :(

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12278

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Project Gorgon, and Combat Arms

11/12/13 8:38:41 AM#138
Originally posted by PieRad

The only ones defending F2P is the middleclass who have just enough money to throw into games that they can feel better than everyone else, so they keep throwing a couple of hundred bucks into every bad "free" game that releases.

It would be great if at least some of you who share Elikal's view could go a post or two without straw men, wild assumptions and sweeping generalizations about other people. I know better than to ask the insults to stop, but the other stuff really obfuscates the issue.

Thanks!

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fivoroth

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2094

11/12/13 8:43:47 AM#139


Originally posted by fs23otm
I get the OP's post. He is poor and wants to have the same as people who are not.

#1 reason the world is going to hell these days:  Entitlement. OP your entitled to two things in life. Death and taxes... same as everyone else. 

Oh.. he doesn't want to work for anything (Most likely reason he is poor) 

#2 reason the world is the way it is: Instant Gratification. Not only does the OP not want to work for anything, but it ties back to #1 in that he wants it all handed to him.

And people wonder why games are going to hell just like real life...


The fact is people being poor should LOVE this system. They get high quality games and don't have to pay a dime. Just because someone else pays money and gets a couple fluff items for it shouldn't change the fact they are happy about this. You don't have to pay a dime and you can do everything everyone else does in the game. The only bonuses to the early beta access are things that you will be making in under a months time in game or pure fluff appearance items.

Complaining about this model really doesn't make any sort of sense. I could see if they were say selling pickaxes that you couldn't obtain in the game and were better than those in the game or something, but that isn't how this model works at all from everything we know right now.

  Brabbit1987

Elite Member

Joined: 10/02/11
Posts: 683

11/12/13 8:48:54 AM#140

I tried reading mostly the entire thread, however it is fairly long so I did skip the last 3 or 4 pages since most comments where being repeated.

 

I understand, both sides.

I agree and disagree with the OP.

 

Reality really wiggled it's way into gaming. Yes the rich can now get better things then the poor. Why and when did this exactly happen? Well, back in the day gaming wasn't even seen as a mainstream sort of thing. Gamers where not cool and seen as geeks. Course I am going very far back here lol. Eventually gaming started to get popular. Along with popularity comes great change.

Did you know, Lobster used to be eaten by the poor in very old times. Here is a very good read about it. http://voices.yahoo.com/how-lobster-went-poor-mans-food-rich-mans-5191759.html

It's pretty interesting but it greatly shows the effects of an item going from unpopular to popular. It's actually very similar to what you are talking about.

It sort of sucks to have to deal with situation you are in real life and be reminded of it in the pass times you enjoy.

 

Now here is why I disagree.

This model, while it does give higher paying customers more of an advantage or better things, it also makes the product cheaper to those who are less capable of paying. This makes the game freely available to those who have interest but not he coin to spare.

I personally think it's a great payment model because it's very flexible to people of all backgrounds and professions. You are not forced to pay a monthly fee, so you have an opportunity to take breaks and come back when your able to. It's great for the casual, but also still works for the hardcore.

Those who are willing to put more time into it, are able to.

I already know many people will disagree with me on my stance. That is fine. I realize this model isn't for everyone. It works for me though because I really don't let others financial situations effect me. i don't care if the person next to me spent $500 and that is why he or she has surpassed me. That doesn't effect me nor does it bother me in any way. After all, I choose to play the game how I would like to play it, and what right do I have to tell someone to play it the same way I do?

I never feel the payment model makes much of a difference, as long as I feel the game is worth it.

These days I personally haven't seen a game that I feel is worthy of a P2P model. Hmm .. maybe if a developer takes advantage of the Oculus ... I might pay monthly, as it would offer something new.

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