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Landmark

Landmark 

General Discussion  » SOE will sell your Landmark creations and keep 60% of sales.

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277 posts found
  sbanting

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/28/07
Posts: 237

11/11/13 11:25:20 PM#121
The odd thing is, for those posing the question, a modder wouldn't normally get any money for their mod, well the modder doesn't normally charge real money for their creations either. Personally I'd never pay real money to buy a castle or house built in an MMO, just like I wouldn't pay for someones user creation of a wow addon, or a Sims house etc. It seems odd to me that there is a price at all, let alone it being a tight ratio.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

11/11/13 11:28:45 PM#122
Originally posted by sbanting
The odd thing is, for those posing the question, a modder wouldn't normally get any money for their mod, well the modder doesn't normally charge real money for their creations either. Personally I'd never pay real money to buy a castle or house built in an MMO, just like I wouldn't pay for someones user creation of a wow addon, or a Sims house etc. It seems odd to me that there is a price at all, let alone it being a tight ratio.

 

The answer is simple, however inconvenient for many: Players are willing to pay for it. 

 

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1023

11/11/13 11:29:14 PM#123
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Nhoj1983
How is this a big deal?  If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive.  Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with.  Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years.  Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs)  Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.

I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.

So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!

 

Wow people are truly dim on these forums

Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.

 

I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.

 

 

 

Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.

 

A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?

 

The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.

It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.

 

As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.

 

Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

  DarkVagabond

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/16/06
Posts: 243

11/11/13 11:33:21 PM#124

Don't like their cut?

Don't participate.

They've established their portion of the revenue long before people will begin creating and nothing on this big blue earth is coercing people to make pretty houses in Everquest.

 

Now a separate thought is that SoE is double dipping by collecting revenue from player content and from a monthly fee.

That part I'm not viewing fondly.

 

And the goofball that thought this was in any way whatsoever comparable to Chinese sweat shops need to keep track of whatever pills he's been popping. I don't imagine anyone has to or ever will have to choose between creating landscape in a MMO as a non employee or living.

  Tygranir

Novice Member

Joined: 6/24/13
Posts: 765

11/11/13 11:34:26 PM#125
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Nhoj1983
How is this a big deal?  If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive.  Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with.  Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years.  Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs)  Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.

I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.

So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!

 

Wow people are truly dim on these forums

Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.

 

I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.

 

 

 

Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.

 

A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?

 

The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.

It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.

 

As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.

 

Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

My only point was the atrocious nature of the comparison being made. Even if made in jest, you are simply wrong for doing so in a public scene where people may have family members subjected to such conditions.

 

As for usury laws, sure they exist for a reason, but do not apply to the entertainment industry, as it is a luxury expense. If someone spends beyond there means, they deserve what they get. There are numerous free utilities, government provided, that can assist you with advancing your quality of life, you just have to be willing to work for it. As such, I have no pity for people who have no self control.

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  ozmono

Novice Member

Joined: 3/12/06
Posts: 1023

11/11/13 11:39:09 PM#126
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Tygranir
Originally posted by ozmono
Originally posted by Nhoj1983
How is this a big deal?  If you want to talk art most art galleries charge at least that much plus put the onus on you to get your piece to the gallery which by itself can be expensive.  Sure it's your work but they're providing the platform for it's sale as well as the tools to begin with.  Sure it's not cool but this isn't new... this sort of business has been around for hundreds of years.  Think of it as your rent or your storefront. (shrugs)  Sometimes it's better not to look for things to complain about just because you want to.

I suppose that's why they call them starving artist. That analogy about the third world shoe makers is sounding better already.

So people forced to work in a sweat shop to feed their families is akin to people getting paid to play a video game, essentially earning money to have fun... in a FREE GAME!!

 

Wow people are truly dim on these forums

Insulting the entire forum isn't exactly the opposite of what you suggest I am. It's reported and I hope you are atleast warned.

 

I posted something about what is acceptable and fair already and I don't care to repeat it but I will. It's in this thread if you are looking for an excuse to insult me for something more than a throw away comment but still related. The example I use is about usury and how it was often the case that people in order to feed their families and so on would be forced into debt with interest rates well over 50%. You could argue that well this person is taking a risk and so on and so on. The truth though is that financial institutions can and do operate and profit on extremely lower interest rates. It was accepted but it wasn't fair and wasn't necessary for the business to function. Is SOE guilty of usury? No ofcourse and they aren't as guilty of exploiting desperate people as shoe makers but are they being fair? It doesn't seem that way to me, I image they could charge far less and still profit from this venture. And before anyone gets on me, it's the free market and all that, well it's because of the nature of free market that we need usury laws and similar regulations.

 

 

 

Good try, but false reporting is against the forum code of conduct. My statement about people on this forum was dubious and general, more like if the shoe fits kind of thing. your stance, while appropriate from an opinionated standpoint, is full of conjecture and personal beliefs.

 

A product is worth what people are willing to pay, regardless of what you may believe is fair or not. If Sony is successful in their business ventures, in what way does that make them liable to offering the general public a break on their pricing?

 

The 60/40 split has been used for character creations in EQ1 for quite a while now. People getting paid to create items in a video game, using tools generated for them, and at the same time having fun, is in no way related to the atrocities that are ongoing in less empowered countries. The very comparison is rather insulting.

It's not false reporting and it's all the worse because it is generalized and aimed at the entirety of the community rather than just me. That's just how I view it. I'm not well versed with all the forums rules and how to find (or stop) loop holes in them and so on though.

 

As for the conversation at hand. I addressed that. It's because of the failure of that line of thinking (The "it's worth what someone will pay") and the devastation it had on peoples lives that we have many regulations and things like laws preventing usury. Even in ancient times people realized that people out of desperations would be willing to pay far more than was in the good of society for something. It's like someone selling their right hand for grain because the harvest was bad and now they cannot farm in future years. That is a dramatization but it is true that the cost to society was too great than to allow people to just exploit desperate people. Even if you reject that, I would hope that you would accept that we need usury laws, minimum wages and things that are considered fair from a humans standpoint. Just because the market can exploit people doesn't mean it should.

 

Now I've actually said in this thread that I find the split good if it involves third party skills and third party tools and great if it's the landmark stuff. What I don't like is snide comments implying that anyone who thinks otherwise is stupid.

My only point was the atrocious nature of the comparison being made. Even if made in jest, you are simply wrong for doing so in a public scene where people may have family members subjected to such conditions.

 

As for usury laws, sure they exist for a reason, but do not apply to the entertainment industry, as it is a luxury expense. If someone spends beyond there means, they deserve what they get. There are numerous free utilities, government provided, that can assist you with advancing your quality of life, you just have to be willing to work for it. As such, I have no pity for people who have no self control.

First of all I agree I shouldn't have referenced that comparison. I stuffed up.

 

Now back on topic, it's not about luxury goods though, it's about the percentage of money someone gets from their work.

  muffins89

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/12
Posts: 1254

11/11/13 11:40:48 PM#127
how many people plan to buy something that another player created?  isn't the whole point of this game to build your own stuff?

I think the prostitute mod corrupted your game files man. -elhefen

  allendale5

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/12
Posts: 125

11/12/13 12:01:46 AM#128

You introduce an extremely good topic, OP.  My opinion is that it's a very interesting approach to achieving long term involvement from players and modders alike.  It sort of makes me wish that I had the skills to submit one.   As for being fair, I cannot comment because I do not know the programming side of things. 

 

My concern  with this system is that programmers will need to figure out exactly how Sony monetizes the content that produces the income -- which features attract the most players and at the same time entice players to spend actual real dollars.  Once this strategy materializes and becomes widespread knowledge, I fear that a lot of creativity will be lost at the expense of the drive toward maximizing profit.  

 

And although I do feel that any player-created content is worth the experiment and at least initially offsets the damages, I would caution Sony to prepare for pervasive abuses of security, content theft, copying, and other infringements that any money makings web based system usually introduce.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/12/13 12:09:19 AM#129
Originally posted by Tissmogi

 

You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.

Is a better deal than their coders get. :shrug:

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  rensta

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/19/08
Posts: 250

"Girlfriends come and go but epic items are soulbound"

11/12/13 12:20:37 AM#130

WTF..... Id understand if they take 10%-20%.... but 60%??!! this is unexceptable!


Basically clicking away text windows ruins every MMO, try to have fun instead of rushing things. Without story and lore all there is left is a bunch of mechanics.
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  strykr619

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/13/07
Posts: 134

11/12/13 12:34:32 AM#131

Clearly lots of ignorant posts in this thread. Most likely its from people who have NO CLUE how good a 40% cut in profit margin is. 

Then again only in America are you the villain because your a productive tax paying member of society while 20-30% of the population COMPLAINS because they are getting free stuff fast enough. 

  Drakephire

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/02/13
Posts: 358

11/12/13 12:40:21 AM#132
As an author, my royalty percentage is far lower than this on books.  If you as artist don't believe 40% is good enough for your fantastic artwork, well, don't sell it then. That's the wonder of the free market.
  Doomedfox

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/10
Posts: 696

11/12/13 12:43:14 AM#133

I do not think it matters if its 40%/10% or 100% you would get from each sell.

Considering how expansive the programs are you would need its doubtfull that anyone who would not own the programs already anyways ever make a profit and the ones who own this programs already would be stupid to waste there time on this.

My wife does use some of these programs for her job and considering that she gets paid over 300 bucks a day(which is far less than what some of her coworkers make a day) to use them i just do not  see anyone really being tempted by the 40%.

However if SOE would give you all programs needed i believe 40% would be more than fair for people who just like to do this kind of stuff as hobby or maybe just are not good enough to make it professional.

  dandurin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 399

11/12/13 12:50:18 AM#134

This thread is high comedy.

 

SoE is going to set the royalty ratio at whatever they think is going to generate the highest net profit, factoring in the increase in customer retention that a large item shop generates.

 

It has nothing to do with words and phrases like "fair" or "greed" or "software development platforms" or "usury".

 

If they price it too high, their production chain will shrivel, forcing them to lower the price.  If producers flood the market, they will raise the price.

 

This is how real, functioning economies work.

 

If you don't like how real, functioning economies work, you can try developing content  for a game produced in a centrally controlled economy.  Surely there's an awesome Cuban MMO for you.

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

11/12/13 1:00:33 AM#135

Indeed! Real economy always works in a system where all the actors are perfectly rational! That's why the Invisible Hand of Free Market always corrects the markets towards the most rational and the most profitable for everyone solution.

 

Oh, wait...

 

Sony, like any other actor in a business system, is simply trying to guess the correct ratio while trying to get as much profits as possible. The systems usually have large margins of tolerance - that is, be it 60/40 or 40/60, the system usually works in both cases and anything in between.

 

Ah, whatever. What the hell am I doing in a landmark thread discussing economy? Off I go, then.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12113

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

11/12/13 1:05:45 AM#136
Originally posted by dandurin

This thread is high comedy.

SoE is going to set the royalty ratio at whatever they think is going to generate the highest net profit, factoring in the increase in customer retention that a large item shop generates.

It has nothing to do with words and phrases like "fair" or "greed" or "software development platforms" or "usury".

If they price it too high, their production chain will shrivel, forcing them to lower the price.  If producers flood the market, they will raise the price.

This is how real, functioning economies work.

If you don't like how real, functioning economies work, you can try developing content  for a game produced in a centrally controlled economy.  Surely there's an awesome Cuban MMO for you.

The worst part about it is that after years of pining for player created content, SOE lets them do it and sets it up so they can make money from their contributions...

 

...and they still aren't happy.

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  DamonVile

Elite Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4654

11/12/13 1:15:55 AM#137
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by dandurin

This thread is high comedy.

SoE is going to set the royalty ratio at whatever they think is going to generate the highest net profit, factoring in the increase in customer retention that a large item shop generates.

It has nothing to do with words and phrases like "fair" or "greed" or "software development platforms" or "usury".

If they price it too high, their production chain will shrivel, forcing them to lower the price.  If producers flood the market, they will raise the price.

This is how real, functioning economies work.

If you don't like how real, functioning economies work, you can try developing content  for a game produced in a centrally controlled economy.  Surely there's an awesome Cuban MMO for you.

The worst part about it is that after years of pining for player created content, SOE lets them do it and sets it up so they can make money from their contributions...

 

...and they still aren't happy.

If they were happy, what would they complain about ?

I kind of get a laugh out of people when they start talking in % and how one is a fair amount but this other one is, but they never use any real numbers. Without knowing how much someone would actually get paid how do they know how much 40% or 60% is going to be ? How do they know it's an unfair amount ?

Do they even have the talent and skill set required to make something that could be sold ? I don't think this is going to be a get out your crayons and SOE is going to write you a fat chek.

People are like cats. When they die, you get a new one.

  dandurin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 399

11/12/13 1:22:09 AM#138
Originally posted by Grahor

..

Oh, wait...

...

 

This makes you sound sarcastic, yet the rest of your post actually makes sense.  Do you want a government committee (heavily lobbied by Blizzard) to set SOE's royalty rates?

  Grahor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/08/11
Posts: 854

11/12/13 1:22:51 AM#139
Listen, people, it's all from SOE player studio ( https://player-studio.soe.com/ ) which is available for YEARS. What the hell are you discussing here as if it's something new?
  itsTort

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/14/11
Posts: 127

11/12/13 1:31:14 AM#140
Originally posted by Tissmogi

 

You are doing 100% of the work creating content, you get 40% of the sales.

SOE does 0% of the work and gets 60% of the sales.

Are you really saying this is fair?

ANY other real money auction house where you sell to other players has a tax of around 10-15% not 60% SIXTY!

Yes, you totally did all the work, you coded everything form the ground up. 

 

No, friend. You just used the tools their developers worked on, to create something that you can profit on. 

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