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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » How about an invite only MMO - thinking out loud

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66 posts found
  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5693

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

11/10/13 4:17:14 PM#41
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by squalleonaha

Depends on the game. Why miss out on money because some people play to make the game fail?

How do you know you can't make even more money that way? You would have a plan.

 

You really thought I was talking about infant children? Ok, then. Thanks for the lecture.

 

Bingo!. That right there... Why miss out on money because some elitists want to make an mmo invitation only?

 

Edit: in case you missed it. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infant

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 4:28:24 PM#42
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by squalleonaha

Depends on the game. Why miss out on money because some people play to make the game fail?

How do you know you can't make even more money that way? You would have a plan.

 

You really thought I was talking about infant children? Ok, then. Thanks for the lecture.

 

Bingo!. That right there... Why miss out on money because some elitists want to make an mmo invitation only?

 

Edit: in case you missed it. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/infant

Yes, I'm quite the elitist. Ya, I get it. You took me literally. I said I was sorry. Thanks for the definition.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5909

11/10/13 4:44:55 PM#43

It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

Curse you AquaScum!

  ApollosWill

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/29/06
Posts: 54

11/10/13 4:52:38 PM#44

Maybe not let the game (developers) decide the community by invites, but let the players decide their own community.

Could work like this;

When you enter the game, it would almost be like having every one else on ignore, and ignore in this specific game, means, not able to see them and/or invite or receive invites for teams/guilds.

But you could receive friend requests if you have a real life friend, and than you would be able to hook up.

So, why play a MMORPG? To justify it as a MMORPG, it should still be possible to meet new players.

So, the days where you would like to increase the circle of friends, you would enable the "find new player".

You would choose different traits you are looking for such as RPG (heavy, lite), PVPer, powerplayer, mature, casual, speedy play, whatever. Other people could probably come up with a better list.

Than the game would search for players that was in the same mood, and find a way to make them meet. Perhaps a Quest given that make them meet up at the same location.

After the quest, you could than decide whatever or not, this could become a more permanent relationship. You could slowly expand your own personal community this way. Problems I can foresee; Need huge servers to hold all those instances and your world could seem a bit empty (actually think this would work better, in a game, where players are over the top character such as Superheroes)

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 5:05:18 PM#45
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

Well then we'll have all the same restrictions and barriers we have now until its another themepark. What good is an "old school" game just to repeat the same scenarios?

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 643

11/10/13 5:15:18 PM#46
Originally posted by richarddoyle

Sure, you could do that.

If every member of your small community was willing to shell out $150+/mo sub to make up for the tiny population.

I'm thinking more like $1500 US per account per month, but I think you're on the right track.  If someone's going to build a Lamborghini of an MMORPG, they might as well charge appropriately.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  Mendel

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/22/11
Posts: 643

11/10/13 5:27:31 PM#47

In addition to the near-catastrophic financial model, what would happen if the developers picked an anti-social type player in their initial invite?   Most of my gaming friends have moved on to other aspects of their lives -- marriage, parenthood, retirement, etc.  I would bring a rather small-scale network of gamers along with me.  The invite-a-friend model works only if the critical first few generations each have a hundred friends to invite.

Besides, the whole invitation only concept smells suspiciously of a pyramid scheme.  I don't want any miracle shampoo product #71, and I really don't want to become a miracle shampoo product #71 salesman.

Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  Gardavsshade

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 632

11/10/13 6:43:01 PM#48
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

I would like to comment on the part I highlighted...

Those "private" servers you refer to ARE illegal, and it will only take a Court Decision or two for Corps like Lucas Arts to release the Legal Hounds for their feast. Anyone having anything to do with those private servers may very well find themselves subpoenaed . Not a good thing to happen just because you missed a MMO that got shut down.

THAT's a big part of why those private servers are not more populated than what they are. A fair number of MMO Players would not risk a lawsuit just to play a MMO. Some Players won't touch these private servers even with little chance of legal trouble simply because they don't want to do anything illegal... even if no one cares.

So I think myself that private servers are irrelevant to this discussion all things considered.

As to the original posters idea.... I see what your intent is but to be honest I am confident that such a plan would NOT weed out the troublemakers, no, they would in fact be compelled to do what ever they could to get an invite, and all you would do is attract the wrong Players.... definition of "wrong" in this particular instance being the Players you would be trying to keep out of your MMO by using the Invite system you propose.

So imo.... nice intention, potentially bad end result (my guess in this prognostication session.


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 6:55:54 PM#49
Originally posted by Gardavsshade
Originally posted by Torvaldr

It worked for gmail and it can work in some situations but not as a general practice. Gmail worked because the email landscape at the time was clamoring for something like this. There was not only a real desire for it, but I think a real need.

Google has subsequently tried a similar approach with other beta or labs programs to much less success. In fact I would say it pissed off a lot of Google users who might have been in previous trials and then were overlooked. I think it showed that a company has to be careful how it treats its existing customers as no one likes to feel excluded, especially early adopters and testers.

If the mmo landscape had a real need for this approach and a vacuum waiting to be filled then I think it would be successful. I don't think that's the case. In fact I would say once an Indie project gets going it has the opposite problem: attracting enough people to test the game and provide quality feedback.

We already have "invite only" mmo servers. Those are the illegal private servers. They're only successful because they're riding on the backs of others money and work. There is no way one of these would make it big if they had to put $20 - $80M of their own money in and then restrict access to "invite only".

Also this isn't what mmos are really about. They're about gaming alongside a lot of other people, good and bad, and forming a community with them. Lineage had a great community filled with cool people and asshats. That's part of what makes the community real.

I would like to comment on the part I highlighted...

Those "private" servers you refer to ARE illegal, and it will only take a Court Decision or two for Corps like Lucas Arts to release the Legal Hounds for their feast. Anyone having anything to do with those private servers may very well find themselves subpoenaed . Not a good thing to happen just because you missed a MMO that got shut down.

THAT's a big part of why those private servers are not more populated than what they are. A fair number of MMO Players would not risk a lawsuit just to play a MMO.

So I think myself that private servers are irrelevant to this discussion all things considered.

As to the original posters idea.... I see what your intent is but to be honest I am confident that such a plan would NOT weed out the troublemakers, no, they would in fact be compelled to do what ever they could to get an invite, and all you would do is attract the wrong Players.... definition of "wrong" in this particular instance being the Players you would be trying to keep out of your MMO by using the Invite system you propose.

So imo.... nice intention, potentially bad end result (my guess in this prognostication session.

It's not about keeping people out.

So if you see a potential downside, then the idea must be scrapped? No solution considered.

 Maybe this will actually work.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17372

11/10/13 6:58:39 PM#50
Originally posted by Gardavsshade

As to the original posters idea.... I see what your intent is but to be honest I am confident that such a plan would NOT weed out the troublemakers, no, they would in fact be compelled to do what ever they could to get an invite, and all you would do is attract the wrong Players.... definition of "wrong" in this particular instance being the Players you would be trying to keep out of your MMO by using the Invite system you propose.

So imo.... nice intention, potentially bad end result (my guess in this prognostication session.

 I disagree.

If there is a method of inviting there can also be a method of uninviting.

Like I said above, if it worked like the Neverwinter private worlds it could be possible. They might not be able to have the functonality of a full mmo but given better technology today I imagine they would be better than those Neverwinter Nights maps.

 

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1454

 
OP  11/10/13 7:34:25 PM#51
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Gardavsshade

...snip

 I disagree.

If there is a method of inviting there can also be a method of uninviting.

Like I said above, if it worked like the Neverwinter private worlds it could be possible. They might not be able to have the functonality of a full mmo but given better technology today I imagine they would be better than those Neverwinter Nights maps.

 

Oooo now that's a path I'd like to see taken.

People say they want their actions to be meaningful in the world.

Reminds me of ostra from the Athenians. Too bad theirs was a no defense outcome but more about forced recycling. Most votes is a judgement made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostracise

You could operate a zero sum where as many go out as come in but that might make the game too few people because you can't get much higher than your original invite list. Just the fear though of being booted for being a citizen others despise might be a way to keep people acting civil. By definition though, some of the powerful would be candidates because of jealousy.

http://www.answers.com/topic/ostracism#ixzz2kIQggf85

ostracism

n.

    1. The act of banishing or excluding.
    2. Banishment or exclusion from a group; disgrace.
  1. In Athens and other cities of ancient Greece, the temporary banishment by popular vote of a citizen considered dangerous to the state.

 

Otherwise I would think people need to be able to defend why they should be able to stay except those extreme cases where proof is known of intentional manipulation like selling invitations. Name and shame with evidence though can be tough in a photo-shopped world. Then it becomes a justice system somewhere where decisions have to be made on who wins each case. The overhead grows... must be a way to automate it, good old voting system would work if the game were small enough where you had an opinion of every player and had interacted with them. That sounds to me like it needs to be revolving about players having something unique for you to care about or have heard of their name when a poll came out if the players control who stays and who goes. Technically they are doing that anyway by having the power of invitations instead of it only being developer sent invitations beyond the initial batch.

 

 

  mmoguy43

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 3/31/09
Posts: 2325

11/10/13 10:32:12 PM#52

For early access, yeah, I much rather have this than open betas. But for long term operation, I'd have to try it for myself. It may be too counter-productive. What keeps someone from doing mass invites to anyone?

Let's build the ultimate MMO 1 feature at a time
http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/398555/page/1

"blocked nariusseldon since forever"

  azmundai

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/18/10
Posts: 1424

11/10/13 10:39:04 PM#53

interesting concept, but I am not sure the reality is any more feasible than a niche mmo that just says, this is what we are, take it or leave it.

i guess what you are suggesting is a situation where users contribute to the design or at least implementation of the game with their ideas, shaping an mmo for a specific group of people? I have a feeling that once you get to a number of people that would make the monetization of such a project possible, you inherently are dealing with too many different people for that kind of thing to really work.

otherwise you have to figure that 30% (conservatively) of the people you invite .. won't stay long if it doesn't satisfy something they greatly desire. I'd imagine it would be more like 60 - 70% honestly. There are just too many options and "promises" for people to not wander.

I think a company would be more successful than what you propose if they just create a great niche game, personally.

LFD tools are great for cramming people into content, but quality > quantity.
I am, usually on the sandbox .. more "hardcore" side of things, but I also do just want to have fun. So lighten up already :)

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 10:56:49 PM#54
Originally posted by azmundai

interesting concept, but I am not sure the reality is any more feasible than a niche mmo that just says, this is what we are, take it or leave it.

i guess what you are suggesting is a situation where users contribute to the design or at least implementation of the game with their ideas, shaping an mmo for a specific group of people? I have a feeling that once you get to a number of people that would make the monetization of such a project possible, you inherently are dealing with too many different people for that kind of thing to really work.

otherwise you have to figure that 30% (conservatively) of the people you invite .. won't stay long if it doesn't satisfy something they greatly desire. I'd imagine it would be more like 60 - 70% honestly. There are just too many options and "promises" for people to not wander.

I think a company would be more successful than what you propose if they just create a great niche game, personally.

Are you sure  they wouldn't stay longer?

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  TheRealBanango

Novice Member

Joined: 3/14/13
Posts: 75

11/10/13 11:16:54 PM#55
Why put a limit on your player base from the start? Even if this concept would work, you are going to have to spend even more amounts of money on marketing to spark interest to make this game relevant enough where you create the sense of elitism you want...Not only that but the game still has to be good, and people are going to have to want to play it. Quite frankly, keeping it a secret and telling people nothing about the game is not going to achieve that. Besides, if the game is actually good, then why are you limiting your potential for growth, there are plenty of other ways to develop community if it doesn't come about naturally.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

11/10/13 11:20:22 PM#56
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by azmundai

interesting concept, but I am not sure the reality is any more feasible than a niche mmo that just says, this is what we are, take it or leave it.

i guess what you are suggesting is a situation where users contribute to the design or at least implementation of the game with their ideas, shaping an mmo for a specific group of people? I have a feeling that once you get to a number of people that would make the monetization of such a project possible, you inherently are dealing with too many different people for that kind of thing to really work.

otherwise you have to figure that 30% (conservatively) of the people you invite .. won't stay long if it doesn't satisfy something they greatly desire. I'd imagine it would be more like 60 - 70% honestly. There are just too many options and "promises" for people to not wander.

I think a company would be more successful than what you propose if they just create a great niche game, personally.

Are you sure  they wouldn't stay longer?

 

The entire notion is predicated on people never changing.

"Invite only Our Sort" "Ok, done, 1500 invites sent"

(a year later)

"WTH? Where is all of this dissent coming from? Did the Wrong Sort sneak in?"

"No sir, just some of Our Sort apparently changed their minds."

"Ban them immediately!"

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 11:26:15 PM#57
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by azmundai

interesting concept, but I am not sure the reality is any more feasible than a niche mmo that just says, this is what we are, take it or leave it.

i guess what you are suggesting is a situation where users contribute to the design or at least implementation of the game with their ideas, shaping an mmo for a specific group of people? I have a feeling that once you get to a number of people that would make the monetization of such a project possible, you inherently are dealing with too many different people for that kind of thing to really work.

otherwise you have to figure that 30% (conservatively) of the people you invite .. won't stay long if it doesn't satisfy something they greatly desire. I'd imagine it would be more like 60 - 70% honestly. There are just too many options and "promises" for people to not wander.

I think a company would be more successful than what you propose if they just create a great niche game, personally.

Are you sure  they wouldn't stay longer?

 

The entire notion is predicated on people never changing.

"Invite only Our Sort" "Ok, done, 1500 invites sent"

(a year later)

"WTH? Where is all of this dissent coming from? Did the Wrong Sort sneak in?"

"No sir, just some of Our Sort apparently changed their minds."

"Ban them immediately!"

It's not about keeping anyone out.

Nice scenario though.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Encephalitis

Novice Member

Joined: 9/20/13
Posts: 59

11/11/13 12:58:50 AM#58

I like the basis on which this thread was created, but I'm failing to understand everybody's riffraff. Half of the arguments against this idea are the exact same arguments used in other threads on why the MMO genre is becoming a bad joke. When Firefall was in closed beta for a few years, they used this concept and everything went just fine. Periodically they would open the flood gates and let everybody in for a few days, then seal it all back up.

"You're committing corporate suicide, you're no longer making an mmo, the idea is dumb because VIP" etc etc....People on this forum mention every day that more company's should explore idea's to help find the limits of an MMO, but the moment anybody does, they bash it in the face with a spiked club and then mope around about "How stagnant the MMO genre is. why can't we have any new idea's".

Yes, I'll admit, "limiting membership to a game" wouldn't be an idea that moves the genre forward...But who's to say it wouldn't, at least, broaden the horizon a bit.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2350

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

11/11/13 1:39:51 AM#59
I'd like to see it done for no other reason then to read posts from people foaming at the mouth because they cannot get invites.

"Why so serious?"
-- The Joker

  greenreen

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/19/12
Posts: 1454

 
OP  11/11/13 1:45:04 AM#60
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by azmundai
...snip

...snip

 

The entire notion is predicated on people never changing.

"Invite only Our Sort" "Ok, done, 1500 invites sent"

(a year later)

"WTH? Where is all of this dissent coming from? Did the Wrong Sort sneak in?"

"No sir, just some of Our Sort apparently changed their minds."

"Ban them immediately!"

Logic isn't working on those complaints. It's veering into exaggeration.

The original people can invite others therefore the original people are not the only people there. The goal isn't to satisfy 1500 people for 5 years (which is the average time that people take to change) . The goal is to let 1500 people pass out the key to 1500 more people who would be a good part of the community. Certainly some would come and go like every game. If the same people were there even 5 years later that would be a massive win. If they weren't but 1500 more were with the same ideals, how would you consider it a failure. It's only stagnant in population but may not be in personality. Maybe I don't think a game needs billions served to be a success if it were being enjoyed.

No one said ban immediately. I didn't see that posted anywhere. I posted something about a justice system once someone brought up the reversal of invites. Removing people that don't fit within the game would be the only way to maintain the integrity of the original reason for invites. That seems logical to remove as much as invite. I read about that Inferno MUD too, it wasn't all bad, they were successful enough to continue making games and made a follow-up to the game :P

We can all imagine it our own way since it doesn't exist right now but no reason to overextend. I'm as doom and gloomy as the next person but I know that different people want different things. This would be a little different. Some might call it refreshing after so many games have went free to play and open their doors to any warm body. What barriers are there to play the majority of MMOs now... hard drive space?

That's why I consider it disruptive and disruptive means change which is scary to some because you can't predict the outcome so doom is easier to predict. Look at Twitter, imagine pitching that to someone... we want people to be able to write messages... messages oh cool, like blogs? ... no shorter... like forum posts... shorter? how short? ... like 140 characters short... what! that will never work, who can say something of importance in so few characters??? ... sounds to me like someone saying now... who can have a good game without unlimited "characters". Change is scary so thinking of a game not wanting as many people packed inside as they possibly could get also sounds like, well, a change. I'm actually surprised so many people think it could work. Of course, I do or I wouldn't have brought it up. I wanted to see the opposite opinions and weigh those too.

 

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