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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: PVE vs PVP

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139 posts found
  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 547

11/10/13 1:45:36 PM#121
Originally posted by xerax
Originally posted by DocBrody

oh come on, that myth again?

 

there really is no PvE vs. PvP

there is "regular people who play everything" vs. PvE-only extremists who are not good at PvP and only shoot easier scripted mobs, running an ideological PvE vs PVP debate for every game.

I mainly enjoy PVE although I will pvp occasionally for me it gets old fast.

The reason there is a PVE VS PVP issue is PVP balance changes a game. Many many mmos I have played (wow, swtor, SWG, Rfit, ETC) have adjusted / marginalised abilities (nerfed) because of the impact these abilites can have in PVP. 

A prime example of this is the impact of Stealth / alpha strike classes, Sneaking past really dangerous guards, hit and run tactics and quick assassinations/ escapes make for fun PVE game play, But in PVP people bitch so bad if they are jumped and dead before they can react (which i suppose is fair enough). Think about how many games which have started with a vaible stealth / assassination style character but had to dial it back to something different after mass PVP related complaints.

Crowd Control is another issue, 1-2 min sleeps spells 10 sec stuns etc are all plausible in a tough PVE enviroment. Look at only school EQ1 no problem with enchanters, latters games PVP demands shorter and shorter Crowd control because PVP players dont like being long term crowd controlled.

Good PVE for me is about building a group of specialists each with signifcant abilities in  their own area who can work as a team to beat something hard, Modern mmo wisdom seems to be PVE & PVP, everyone pretty much the same, everyone gets a self heal, an escape ability, a dps cool down. etc To me this is dull.

And the coin flip of this is that pve changes often have big unforeseen/un-desired impacts on pvp(for reference see STO)  There is not enough time in any development cycle to QA this crap away, it just builds your todo list with every change.

  Homitu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/01/09
Posts: 2029

11/10/13 3:49:30 PM#122
Originally posted by General-Zod

I laughed when Bill said that PvE'ers would cry of the A.I was too smart (aka The computer wouldnt let me win Waaaaaaah)

All jokes aside

I agree with Bill, pvp content in an open world setting can be washed & repeated. Battlegrounds and arenas get alittle mundane... the only game that did battlegrounds correctly was Daoc. I also want to add that pve is also important to pvp'ers because it allows us to relax from the pressures of pvp.

Everybody knows being the best at something is stressful...

That's a very real issue though, and one that has been discussed many times here and by developers on their own games forums many times.  There is a super tricky balance developers must try to reach when programming their boss encounters.  They must make fights difficult enough that there will be a learning curve for almost any group and, therefore, feel very rewarding once they finally defeat the encounter; but they must not make the fights too hard, or you will alienate way too many players (and get all the rest to rage quit).  

I know some believe that PvE difficulty suffers because developers don't have the technology to make truly challenging AI, but that's not the case at all.  They can make bosses dynamically respond to all sorts of different scenarios, but the results would just be severely frustrating for players.  When players can't accurately anticipate what a boss will do and respond accordingly, when the boss can unpredictably adjust a mechanic on the fly to own someone, it just feels cheap and frustrating.  The computer could just press an 'I win' button at any point (and not just by statistically 1-shotting everyone), but that doesn't feel fun to anyone.  

  Rinna

Novice Member

Joined: 9/25/04
Posts: 386

11/10/13 6:01:08 PM#123
I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps.  I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there.  Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers.  Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.

No bitchers.

  silhouettez

Novice Member

Joined: 3/16/09
Posts: 1

11/10/13 10:44:48 PM#124
MMORPG PVPers are those that are bad at other REAL PVP genres (fighting, FPS, sports, the ones that actually takes skill to win), and decide to look for easier targets that they can handle: those not interested in PVP, or they need something to give them advantage over others. MMORPGs are just too slow for real skill to show, especially when gear matters. Ironic seeing that the only thing these PVPers gloat are their "mad skillz", though in reality they're lacking in them or otherwise they'd go for those other games. Seriously, though, if these guys are so pro, why don't they just play for the real money in real competitions? Those get them more recognition, more reward, and more challenge (hah) than playing MMORPGs.
  Faelsun

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/07
Posts: 482

11/10/13 11:01:01 PM#125
Originally posted by Rinna
I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps.  I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there.  Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers.  Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.

 

People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich. 

Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced  and Arena  areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it  just collect cosmetics. 

I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do. 

  Jetrpg

Novice Member

Joined: 4/22/06
Posts: 2392

11/10/13 11:30:22 PM#126
daoc PRE/EARILY toa eough said, just do that.

"Society in every state is a blessing, but government even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one ..." - Thomas Paine

  Ataaka

Novice Member

Joined: 4/01/08
Posts: 151

Anyone can act, just be yourself -aTaaka

11/11/13 2:32:53 AM#127

This might be a troll post, it's not my intent to troll.

The topic of PVP vs PVE could also be be written as Murder vs Adventure. Not only are they not antonyms but there is no need to even compare PVP vs PVE. My point is better illustrated in the real world event that changed how a game called WoW failed three times with delving PVP to subscribers...

 

-Vanilla WoW had full world PVP.

Enter PVP'er (any category, casual, elitist, hardcore, etc...)

Blizzard re-zoned and people who wanted to PVP opposing players in their 'noob zones' found glitches and either swam or ran for two hours (literally) to get some killing done.

Blizzard then created PVP Arenas and made the mistake of punishing players who did not participate (Via PVP Gear Rewards)

Blizzard then created PVP Zones where PVE Elements were massaged into a highly accepted fashion of PVP'ing. 

 

Enough history... Let me get to my rant.

 

MMO's are social networks. We have the backdrop of the game to keep us occupied as we build social bonds. While I enjoy PvPing, I do not look at non-pvp'ers like they are second class citizens. I like defending my guild or another person or even a piece of real estate... what person wouldn't? 

I would be ignorant to say that my skills as a PVP'er are better than those who don't. It would be the same injustice to say that a hardcore PVP'er cant muster the high end PVE content. Anyone can backstab a rabbit or deer, but how many can conquer content? Hmmmm.....

PVP should finally have it's home in MMO, after all this time. I truly believe that managing PVP is like being a prison guard. Who wants to babysit prisoners? Who wants to address 100k complaints with the same content? I don't.

At last, I will share my most memorable PVP encounter on a 'full pvp-full drop' server...

As I was skirting through the edge of town, on my way to selling some loot in order to use the funds to craft better gear. A player, five levels above me, was seen running through the center of town by my ever-watching eyes. He pretended not to see me, but my gut feeling told me there was going to be a fight.

I sold a few items while devising an exit plan in case he attacked. Suddenly, he attacked from a distance. 

'Mage!" I thought.

Line of sight was killed as I stepped to the side and hopped over a tall barrier. AS he hopped over the barrier, I hit him with my longest casting spell... Boom!!! There went a large chunk of his health. He countered with a more powerful spell with a shorter cast time, as did I. 

The fight went on for literally three minutes before I killed his LOS using the nearby barrier, then hopping back over to gain enough time to 'mana-up'. As he hopped back over I opened fire and killed him with only 3-5 health points of my own remaining.

I guarded his body while he limped back to his corpse. He whispered, 'why didnt you loot me man? I would have looted you.'

My reply, 'I took the most valuable thing... your life.'

He laughed, 'Dood... we respawn ya know. LOL'

I adjusted my quick bar to reflect a better rotation for PVP as he spoke, then I turned toward the nearby woods. He whispered, 'You need a guild?'

I thought about how he openly attacked me for no reason. I thought about him looting my only possessions in the game. I thought about getting away before he got his strength back... I had no reason to trust him.

"Sure... why not?!?", I said, as he added me to his guild

I looked at my new guild name and shrugged, why would anyone name a guild 'Blood'.

 

LOL -I love PVP, just cant stand the players -Attaka

 

 

  Sarasi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/24/03
Posts: 16

11/11/13 10:33:44 AM#128

I am a firm believer of pve. PVP is not even in my catagory of a mmorpg. Although pvp has its "fun" in some instances-DAOC realm vs realm- etc. But all out pvp is just wrong in my opinion.Aside from the mindless gankers who walk around just looking for someone with a lower level and weaker type solo class as they are to "whip thier butt". You have the other mindset who want to kill other players just to get thier loots. If pvp cannot be contained in arens or specially designed zones where solo or pve players will not adventure in because they know it is exclusively pvp it is surely a welcome addition to any game. But please do not make going into these zones the only way for pve people to aquire items and get to places they need to get to in order to finish quests or other game feature-like visiting needed towns or travel sites. Also, what is the need to aquire "PVP gear".If everyone who plays in the same game can get the same gear ,why do they need Special Gear to pvp? The same items should be available to all players who are equal level and standing in the game. Maybe subscription players should be able to get better gear than free players but I am also not a fan of the free player and item shop idea that is hitting the market .

But back to pvp vs pve. Please allow pvp only in restrivted zones or by a consent option.As stated i am not a fan ofpvp and would not miss it if it was erased from the genre altogether.Are there any exclusive pvp games that last more than a few years?? The thoughts of takeing on a relatively even strengthed mob and winning only to be hit from behind right after by some 13 year old pvper who wants to tell his friend he just beat a higher level character and got his items- without telling he was ant 30% strength from a previous fight just want ot make me puke.

  OnabFarell

Novice Member

Joined: 9/15/06
Posts: 1

11/11/13 11:08:19 AM#129

The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight?

I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1789

11/11/13 12:34:38 PM#130

It's simple. People play different games for different reasons and expect different experiences out of them.  There is nothing good, bad, superior, inferior, etc about any of those choices. We're all just playing games for our own entertainment, period. Forcing PvP onto people who want only to PvE is a loosing proposition. It's like an amusment park forcing people who only want to go on the rides to smash thier thumbs with a hammer before each ride. It's a nonsense proposition for an entertainment product to force people into a situation they simply do not enjoy.

That's not to say that open world PvP games don't have a place - they do.  They just shouldn't expect to draw in too many players who are solely interested in PvE....and players that choose that style of game shouldn't expect to avoid PvP. That's all fine.  What's most important is for a game to honestly and clearly set the players expectations up front about what sort of experience they are going to get....and for the player to be clear and honest with themselves about what they want and not complain when a game delivers exactly what it said up front it would.

Unfortunately there is a small category of people who aren't interested in PvP at all, rather they want PvV (Player vs Victem) . They want situations setup where they get to prey on people who aren't interested, equiped or skilled to do PvP....they want easy kills for proffit. Then they get frustrated and complain when, shockingly, very few people sign up in those games to play thier full time victems.  Should it really surprise any sane person that few people want to sign up for games to play full-time victems?

The only lesson here is that people have different tastes and expectations in entertainment. That's perfectly great....just don't expect people to do something that don't enjoy for entertainment.

Personaly I enjoy lots of different types of PvP - Turn Based and RTS Wargames, FPS, Sports, Boardgames, etc.  I mostly don't enjoy PvP in MMO's because I find few do it well (aside from Planetside and WWII Online which play much closer to FPS games)...and it's not generaly what I look for out of an MMO. I also enjoy PvE quite a bit. It depends upon my mood....but I certainly don't want to experience one thing when I'm looking for something else entirely.

 

 

  Theocritus

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3613

11/11/13 12:47:07 PM#131
Originally posted by DMKano

One thing I've learned over the years, both from personal experience and talking to actual game designers during game shows - you focus on ONE aspect and do it well - so you either make a PvP game or PvE game essentially, doing both and expecting them both to be equally important and balanced is next to impossible.

This may be a hard pill to swallow, but thats the hard reality, each game has either PvE or PvP focus, never both, because at least you can do one well - focusing on both systems, you end up failing at both PvE and PvP.

 

 

 Well said....Its actually hard to find a pure PVE game that does not have some form of PVP aded often as an afterthought.....I think too often they try to appeal to too broad of a range of gamer......ALso I still dont think I've ever seen a PVP game done right....Its either too hardcore (eve, Darkfall, Mortal Online) or theres no point to it (wow, eq, lotro)......

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

11/11/13 1:08:29 PM#132
Onab

You get chest thumping in pve games too. What about all the people in wow sitting in cities showing off their epics.

Anyway I think we need a variety of games

We need some 50/50 games like daoc and gw1 & 2
We need some mostly pve games like wow, tsw & rift (although we have more than enough of these games already)
We need mostly pvp games like eve and DF
We need only pvp games like planetside 2
We need only pve games, sorry can't think of any.
  Sweede

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/04
Posts: 182

11/12/13 11:04:58 AM#133
Problem with games that have both is how to balance it? Blizz sure have no clue how to, ffa pvp servers where lvl 90's get more bonus res than all other levels, gear that is insane(see players now over 1 mil hp), a lvl 85-89 is barely a speedbump, so for us liking world pvp where bu$$ fecked nicely, dead at 88 in 2 seconds while using cooldowns and instant heals while doing 2k dmg on the lvl 90 sure feels super fun.
bkmvl Xfire Miniprofile
  immodium

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/07
Posts: 1271

11/12/13 11:19:24 AM#134
Originally posted by OnabFarell

The reason that I have never been able to get into PvP is because I have never found any game where there is any point to it. EVE Online is probably the best example of where players can alter the course of the game universe, but in most games, the PvP exists only to give one group of people the right to stand around pounding their chests. Nothing is accomplished by the fighting, so why fight?

I agree though, that there is no experience so exciting as fighting against another player, because it simply changes the dynamics of the conflict entirely.

Why fight in PvE then, just for the loot?

If the combat mechanics are pretty stellar gamers will fight for fun. PvP players look for a more challenging type of fight than PvE. Most PvE is designed to be beaten (back in the 80's some of it wasn't :)). Against a human, it's nothing like that.

It's why chess players or any sports enthusiast likes to play against humans than machines. PvE is good at training you at the mechanics, PvP is where the challenge is.

PvP players don't play for the carrot.

I'm not that competitive but I do like the challenge PvP gives me in regard to combat. If I enjoy the combat mechanics, I'll stay and be social and engage in PvE too.

 

  taoofjester

Novice Member

Joined: 11/04/09
Posts: 19

11/13/13 2:52:34 PM#135

A well built bot will triumph in PVP over a player every single day. Their reaction time is quicker. They do not let human emotion affect their play. They are never tired. Outside problems do not influence how they play. This is, assuming, that the game play is fairly static and does not allow for a lot of changing of skills. Most games are this way, except, perhaps GOW and games that do not have carefully selected skill trees with a limited number of possible outcomes that are viable.

One has to look no further than chess to see how computers can rock humans. Or the new robot in Japan that will win every single time in rock paper scissors because it can process what the human hand is doing at such a rapid level that it can figure out what the human is doing and make the correct gesture to win.

But, frankly, humans are a lot more fun to play against.

  Camthylion

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/08
Posts: 228

11/14/13 11:55:35 PM#136
I want PVP any day!  I want sandbox PVP at that...
  Boneserino

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/08/07
Posts: 647

11/15/13 1:00:46 AM#137
Originally posted by Faelsun
Originally posted by Rinna
I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps.  I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there.  Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers.  Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.

 

People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich. 

Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced  and Arena  areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it  just collect cosmetics. 

I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do. 

I think Faelson makes a lot of good points as to why the PvP players are generally better off in their own games.   The rest of us certainly would not want to ruin his, or any other PvP players games.    I mean cmon guys lets face it!!  Without our nutsacks, we are not even worthy to shine their swords! 

 

We all have different expectations of what we want from a game.    Many people enjoy different styles of gameplay,  and are happy to try different types.  Some like a little PvP now and then, some want nothing to do with it.    So we need a few games  in the middle for those players that like to try different things .  But we also need games at both ends of the spectrum too.    Unfortunately the spectrum end that Faelson refers to and I believe is a member of, is lacking and also proving to be a hard lot to please.    Some attempts have been made but nothing seems to catch hold.   Meanwhile the carebear end of the spectrum is doing quite nicely. 

 

Faleson I think you have to ask yourself why that is, and why the games you would like to see are not happening.   Maybe if you were a little more constructive about it and not just throwing the blame around, people might start to listen to the hardcores concerns a little more.   And I am all for it because, frankly, I do not belong in the same game with you.  Respectfully.  

FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!

  Faelsun

Novice Member

Joined: 6/23/07
Posts: 482

11/17/13 1:20:45 AM#138
Originally posted by Boneserino
Originally posted by Faelsun
Originally posted by Rinna
I'd be truly happy if they forever separated the two camps.  I'm not a pvper, I won't ever be a pvper... how bout just let me enjoy my game my way and keep pvp over there.  Arenas or instanced areas or separate games are better than open world pvp that alienates non pvpers.  Or give me an option in open world to Never Ever Ever EVER flag up or autoflag.

 

People who don't pvp telling the rest of us what pvp is, thats rich. 

Did you ever consider it was people like you who get emotional over your toon getting fake killed in a multi player game, VS other people and then expect to be left alone like its a single player game might be ruining the game for everyone else? When did this behavior ever become normal. Instanced  and Arena  areas are not pvp thats a mini game and that is why these bubblegum hand holding no bullying games flop. No one who is really serious about pvp world or structured plays GW2 which is probably why most of the people still playing it  just collect cosmetics. 

I mean to be blunt just because you are a chicken shit doesn't mean they have to code it in the game and ruin the fun of it for everyone else. Maybe grow a nutsack and participate, stop being such a crybaby and compete. Christ can you imagine how boring EVE online would be if it were JUST farming ore off rocks and chatting AFK, I mean when will cowards understand that coding a game around you not having any spine is going to be the most boring game ever made. I mean have you played GW2 they couldnt make a more boring POS, I can already tell you what the POS games will be because of the carebear crybaby pvp systems they implemented. Elder Scrolls is going to be carebear questfest with nothing to do. 

I think Faelson makes a lot of good points as to why the PvP players are generally better off in their own games.   The rest of us certainly would not want to ruin his, or any other PvP players games.    I mean cmon guys lets face it!!  Without our nutsacks, we are not even worthy to shine their swords! 

 

We all have different expectations of what we want from a game.    Many people enjoy different styles of gameplay,  and are happy to try different types.  Some like a little PvP now and then, some want nothing to do with it.    So we need a few games  in the middle for those players that like to try different things .  But we also need games at both ends of the spectrum too.    Unfortunately the spectrum end that Faelson refers to and I believe is a member of, is lacking and also proving to be a hard lot to please.    Some attempts have been made but nothing seems to catch hold.   Meanwhile the carebear end of the spectrum is doing quite nicely. 

 

Faleson I think you have to ask yourself why that is, and why the games you would like to see are not happening.   Maybe if you were a little more constructive about it and not just throwing the blame around, people might start to listen to the hardcores concerns a little more.   And I am all for it because, frankly, I do not belong in the same game with you.  Respectfully.  

Ultima Online, Ashercons Call, EVE online, to a lesser extent AOC, L2, RIFT. PvPers are not asking the PVE wood chopping  raid hub camping crowd to go away, frankly I love killing them while they try to avoid me. But the gods honest truth is this without us in your game whatever mmorpg is happens to be it will lack any credibility. But I promise you wont find any top mmorpgs with no PVP in them what you will find is borefest wastelands with mindless herds of people  running around looking for things to do, like GW2. 

Personally any mmo that does not have PVP in it should be classified as a talker because all you are doing is using an overpriced chat room. 

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/20/13 7:58:02 PM#139
Originally posted by BMBender
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Theres really no catch all for these two things to work together in tandem to make one game everyone will love.   I want more challenging general PvE content,  and also more diverse PvP content...    ....   .....  ....  ..... and I don't want it to be expensive either.  

You should design one then.

I don't design MMOs.  That doesn't mean that I do not have the ability or capacity to develop my own games.  I am currently working in the mobile development field so who knows....   but no,  an MMO would take too much work and way too many people for someone like me to honestly address.  A MOG maybe.. 

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


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