Trending Games | ArcheAge | Swordsman | World of Warcraft | Destiny

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,774,749 Users Online:0
Games:721  Posts:6,189,053
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Old School...Any way to appeal to a developer ?

13 Pages First « 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 » Search
249 posts found
  Tibernicuspa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/10/13 11:31:17 AM#221
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
DAoC wasn't never even a huge game in the first place
 
It was the second biggest MMO of its day...
  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 999

11/10/13 11:41:00 AM#222
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by FinalFikus

I think SWG fans have done 10 times what you guys are asking for. They are known pretty much in every community that discusses games. There isn't a larger group with more demand that is more passionate out there.

What else could they possibly do?

For sure. It feels like they're asking us to do the work of the dev/publisher, which is gather this information. We're supposed to voice our opinions, and we do... oh my gosh do we voice our opinions. The problem is when we do, we get labeled as having rose tinted glasses, being the "extremely vocal minority", etc.

Its simply not realistic.  As much as people want to deny the fact is that the WoW factor has skewered what people are willing to risk in the MMO.  It's not about a viable market demand its about the potential vs. risk.  A game made in WoW's image has the potential for 12+ million subscribers while EQ or SWG or UO pretty much was the peak of old school games at 500-250k.   I think the type of games being made speaks for itself.  

 

Say you have 5 million player who are into "Old School Games" and you break them down to those will subscribe into any of the different type of MMORPGs as 500-300k if its good.  Why risk learning a new type of game audience that's going to max out in the hundreds of thousands than throw a net at likely 20 million who you might spike at 800k and hold down a steady 200k through P2P  with a steady influx of new and old spending on your game once it goes F2P?

 

Forget date just  look at the reality of what's been made.  Since 2004 there has been almost 0 game not made WoW's image which speaks volumes.  Other types of MMORPG are being forced largely to be made by indie, players themselves and developers recreating their old games.  

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 999

11/10/13 11:43:05 AM#223
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
DAoC wasn't never even a huge game in the first place
 
It was the second biggest MMO of its day...

 

Not really.

  Tibernicuspa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/10/13 11:48:24 AM#224
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
DAoC wasn't never even a huge game in the first place
 
It was the second biggest MMO of its day...

 

Not really.

Uh yes, it was. Until FF11 it was. It even beat SWG for a while.

  Tibernicuspa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/10/13 12:06:43 PM#225
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11900

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

11/10/13 12:15:48 PM#226
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

That's not true because many business start with this is good and I think the world will like it.  There are no predictions that are 100% or likely or we wouldn't have faliures nor sleeper hits.  Many businesses are started by every day people not people in suits polling and quantifying every piece of information.  Again, there are people who are bold who make the improbable a hit.  

I understand you believe that's how it happens. I am telling you from practice and experience that is simply not how a business, even one created by the "bold", is started.

VR, "build it and they will come" is a line in a movie about ghost baseball players in a cornfield. It's not how any business - EvilCorpCo or hip wide-eyed indie - works. No one starts a business without even the most basic of business plans or business strategies, and there is no way to create either if you don't know anything about your target audience, especially if you have no idea what the size of it is. 

  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 11900

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

11/10/13 12:19:41 PM#227
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

 

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 12:36:58 PM#228
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by FinalFikus

I think SWG fans have done 10 times what you guys are asking for. They are known pretty much in every community that discusses games. There isn't a larger group with more demand that is more passionate out there.

What else could they possibly do?

For sure. It feels like they're asking us to do the work of the dev/publisher, which is gather this information. We're supposed to voice our opinions, and we do... oh my gosh do we voice our opinions. The problem is when we do, we get labeled as having rose tinted glasses, being the "extremely vocal minority", etc.

Its simply not realistic.  As much as people want to deny the fact is that the WoW factor has skewered what people are willing to risk in the MMO.  It's not about a viable market demand its about the potential vs. risk.  A game made in WoW's image has the potential for 12+ million subscribers while EQ or SWG or UO pretty much was the peak of old school games at 500-250k.   I think the type of games being made speaks for itself.  

 

Say you have 5 million player who are into "Old School Games" and you break them down to those will subscribe into any of the different type of MMORPGs as 500-300k if its good.  Why risk learning a new type of game audience that's going to max out in the hundreds of thousands than throw a net at likely 20 million who you might spike at 800k and hold down a steady 200k through P2P  with a steady influx of new and old spending on your game once it goes F2P?

 

Forget date just  look at the reality of what's been made.  Since 2004 there has been almost 0 game not made WoW's image which speaks volumes.  Other types of MMORPG are being forced largely to be made by indie, players themselves and developers recreating their old games.  

Let them try another one then. That's how you build a brand.

 

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

11/10/13 12:37:17 PM#229
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

This is true, but the MMO market seems to be the most unpredictable market out there. Games like EVE were proclaimed DOA while the SWTOR's of the world garnered miraculous ratings out of the gate. Look at where they are now.

Numbers are great. I really believe that. But I also believe the MMO market has changed so much in just 10-12 years that trying to pick a winner is impossible. We went from 500k subs being considered awesome to WoW taking the crown at 12-ish million subs to F2P saturating the market and greatly changing the numbers game since a "paying customer" is no longer the only type of customer you have. I would say it gets a lot more challenging to predict success when you have different tiers of customers paying different dollar amounts in a variety of countries.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 12:44:41 PM#230
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

 

But if you have the numbers, the party is almost over. At some point a risk will have to be taken.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  salaciouscrumbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 91

11/10/13 12:47:53 PM#231

This is really more simple than it seems, based on countless talks and interviews with developers.

 

There are many markets that are untapped and currently viable. Including MMO's. The problem isn't that there isn't profit to be made with creating and old-school MMO. The problem isn't that devleopers don't want to make the game - because they do. The problem is that the Publishers have been consolidated over the last 10 years to just a handful of huge companies and those companies don't want to get out of bed for any potential game that isn't a guaranteed 10 million copies sold.

 

All that's required to make an old-school MMO viable at this point is a crowd-funding campaign. I'm sure something is being put together by a studio somewhere. And if not, whoever picks up on this and gets there first is going to reap the rewards. Possibly being set up for life, like Blizzard.

Listen to Chris Roberts talk about this: The Last 10 Years in Video Games

  Tibernicuspa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/10/13 12:50:03 PM#232
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

Numbers are absolutely useless if you don't understand their context. MMORPGs are far more complex than just about any game genre out there, and really hard to understand unless you've been there from the start.

Publishers are in the business of making money, not studying social theory and game design. What works with other genres is to look at what is selling and make games more like that. It usually works. It doesn't with MMOs.

The numbers publishers see is hmm, EverQuest, 500k at peak. UO and SWG, 300k at peak, DAoC, 250k at peak. Hmm, WoW, 13 million... GUESS WHAT WE'RE INVESTING IN BOYS!

They don't dig into the very timing oriented circumstances that birthed WoW. They don't look into specific markets and see which ones are tapped and which ones aren't. They see how many subs WoW has, and they see how many subs hardcore MMOs have. (well some, but most numbers are never released). They see that DAoC has a declining playerbase. They don't dig deep to discover that players started leaving after EA forced the game to be more like WoW. They don't see that SWG died after it got WoWified.

Know why I think that? Because in what SANE world would publishers perfectly understand the market, see 8 years of AAA WoW clones failing to survive beyond a year, and then make another huge budget WoW clone?

 

All the tales from devs using kickstarter paint a bleak picture. Publishers aren't interested in concentrated core experiences. Wasteland 2 got shot down hundreds of times.

Publishers don't get social glue, or how inconveniences in MMOs breed socializing, which breeds players staying longer. Those numbers take someone smart and immersed in the work to understand. Someone like Raph Koster. Not someone like Bobby over at Activision.

 

Publishers don't understand MMOs, that's why they keep backing failed themeparks. Is it more logical that publishers don't understand MMOs, or that the 1million+ people that enjoyed MMOs before WoW turned everything into a themepark... just all vanished?

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 12:50:20 PM#233
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs

This is really more simple than it seems, based on countless talks and interviews with developers.

 

There are many markets that are untapped and currently viable. Including MMO's. The problem isn't that there isn't profit to be made with creating and old-school MMO. The problem also isn't that devleopers don't want to make the game - because they do. The problem is that the Publishers have been consolidated over the last 10 years to just a handful of huge companies and those companies don't want to get out of bed for any potential game that isn't a guaranteed 10 million copies sold.

 

All that's required to make an old-school MMO viable at this point is a crowd-funding campaign. I'm sure something is being put together by a studio somewhere. And if not, whoever picks up on this and gets there first is going to reap the rewards. Possibly being set up for life, like Blizzard.

Listen to Chris Roberts talk about this: The Last 10 Years in Video Games

And if there is a success, it somehow ends up in the hands of the publisher and history tells the rest.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  salaciouscrumbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 91

11/10/13 12:53:02 PM#234
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs

This is really more simple than it seems, based on countless talks and interviews with developers.

 

There are many markets that are untapped and currently viable. Including MMO's. The problem isn't that there isn't profit to be made with creating and old-school MMO. The problem also isn't that devleopers don't want to make the game - because they do. The problem is that the Publishers have been consolidated over the last 10 years to just a handful of huge companies and those companies don't want to get out of bed for any potential game that isn't a guaranteed 10 million copies sold.

 

All that's required to make an old-school MMO viable at this point is a crowd-funding campaign. I'm sure something is being put together by a studio somewhere. And if not, whoever picks up on this and gets there first is going to reap the rewards. Possibly being set up for life, like Blizzard.

Listen to Chris Roberts talk about this: The Last 10 Years in Video Games

And if there is a success, it somehow ends up in the hands of the publisher and history tells the rest.

Perhaps, but I think that things might be a tad different this time around.

 

Keep in mind that most of the CEO's of the famous, small studios were in their teens and 20's when they made it big time. Literally just kids with no business sense. They're older now - you'd think they'd learn from their mistakes, including selling themselves off to the big publishers and destroying their IP's.

 

Hell even Chris Roberts sold his studio to EA. Everyone did, back then. History doesn't have to repeat itself, necessarily.

  salaciouscrumbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 91

11/10/13 12:54:32 PM#235
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

Numbers are absolutely useless if you don't understand their context. MMORPGs are far more complex than just about any game genre out there, and really hard to understand unless you've been there from the start.

Publishers are in the business of making money, not studying social theory and game design. What works with other genres is to look at what is selling and make games more like that. It usually works. It doesn't with MMOs.

The numbers publishers see is hmm, EverQuest, 500k at peak. UO and SWG, 300k at peak, DAoC, 250k at peak. Hmm, WoW, 13 million... GUESS WHAT WE'RE INVESTING IN BOYS!

They don't dig into the very timing oriented circumstances that birthed WoW. They don't look into specific markets and see which ones are tapped and which ones aren't. They see how many subs WoW has, and they see how many subs hardcore MMOs have. (well some, but most numbers are never released). They see that DAoC has a declining playerbase. They don't dig deep to discover that players started leaving after EA forced the game to be more like WoW. They don't see that SWG died after it got WoWified.

Know why I think that? Because in what SANE world would publishers perfectly understand the market, see 8 years of AAA WoW clones failing to survive beyond a year, and then make another huge budget WoW clone?

 

All the tales from devs using kickstarter paint a bleak picture. Publishers aren't interested in concentrated core experiences. Wasteland 2 got shot down hundreds of times.

Publishers don't get social glue, or how inconveniences in MMOs breed socializing, which breeds players staying longer. Those numbers take someone smart and immersed in the work to understand. Someone like Raph Koster. Not someone like Bobby over at Activision.

 

Publishers don't understand MMOs, that's why they keep backing failed themeparks. Is it more logical that publishers don't understand MMOs, or that the 1million+ people that enjoyed MMOs before WoW turned everything into a themepark... just all vanished?

Good points.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 12:57:58 PM#236
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs

This is really more simple than it seems, based on countless talks and interviews with developers.

 

There are many markets that are untapped and currently viable. Including MMO's. The problem isn't that there isn't profit to be made with creating and old-school MMO. The problem also isn't that devleopers don't want to make the game - because they do. The problem is that the Publishers have been consolidated over the last 10 years to just a handful of huge companies and those companies don't want to get out of bed for any potential game that isn't a guaranteed 10 million copies sold.

 

All that's required to make an old-school MMO viable at this point is a crowd-funding campaign. I'm sure something is being put together by a studio somewhere. And if not, whoever picks up on this and gets there first is going to reap the rewards. Possibly being set up for life, like Blizzard.

Listen to Chris Roberts talk about this: The Last 10 Years in Video Games

And if there is a success, it somehow ends up in the hands of the publisher and history tells the rest.

Perhaps, but I think that things might be a tad different this time around.

 

Keep in mind that most of the CEO's of the famous, small studios were in their teens and 20's when they made it big time. Literally just kids with no business sense. They're older now - you'd think they'd learn from their mistakes, including selling themselves off to the big publishers and destroying their IP's.

 

Hell even Chris Roberts sold his studio to EA. Everyone did, back then. History doesn't have to repeat itself, necessarily.

Until kickstarter allows actual investment / ownership of the game, we're just absorbing all the risk for them, and even if we get a game, we could still have it "wowified" and lose the reward,

Someone else always has their finger on the power button.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  salaciouscrumbs

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/04/13
Posts: 91

11/10/13 1:02:58 PM#237
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs

This is really more simple than it seems, based on countless talks and interviews with developers.

 

There are many markets that are untapped and currently viable. Including MMO's. The problem isn't that there isn't profit to be made with creating and old-school MMO. The problem also isn't that devleopers don't want to make the game - because they do. The problem is that the Publishers have been consolidated over the last 10 years to just a handful of huge companies and those companies don't want to get out of bed for any potential game that isn't a guaranteed 10 million copies sold.

 

All that's required to make an old-school MMO viable at this point is a crowd-funding campaign. I'm sure something is being put together by a studio somewhere. And if not, whoever picks up on this and gets there first is going to reap the rewards. Possibly being set up for life, like Blizzard.

Listen to Chris Roberts talk about this: The Last 10 Years in Video Games

And if there is a success, it somehow ends up in the hands of the publisher and history tells the rest.

Perhaps, but I think that things might be a tad different this time around.

 

Keep in mind that most of the CEO's of the famous, small studios were in their teens and 20's when they made it big time. Literally just kids with no business sense. They're older now - you'd think they'd learn from their mistakes, including selling themselves off to the big publishers and destroying their IP's.

 

Hell even Chris Roberts sold his studio to EA. Everyone did, back then. History doesn't have to repeat itself, necessarily.

Until kickstarter allows actual investment / ownership of the game, we're just absorbing all the risk for them, and even if we get a game, we could still have it "wowified" and lose the reward,

Someone else always has their finger on the power button.

You are absolutely correct in that conjecture. It's a leap of faith to crowd-fund.

 

But if a reputable developer comes around, promises not to sell to a publisher - says the the game will be designed for "old-school" gamers and remain that way, I think they would probably follow through with their promise.

 

After all, if the game sells well as an "old-school" game, why change the model? Developers are more like us than we may realize - they're gamers and artists. They're the ultimate customer of their own product. They'd probably like to take control of their own projects. All of the games that we've seen in the past that have evolved for the worst have done so at the beckoning of publishers - not developers.

 

Though your theory is something to worry about, it's not based on any evidence yet. I'd rather take the leap of faith a few times in the near future as it only costs me (as an individual) $30-60 per game to donate to potentially years of enjoyment, it's a no-brainer for me.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 1:19:42 PM#238
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
Originally posted by FinalFikus
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs

This is really more simple than it seems, based on countless talks and interviews with developers.

 

There are many markets that are untapped and currently viable. Including MMO's. The problem isn't that there isn't profit to be made with creating and old-school MMO. The problem also isn't that devleopers don't want to make the game - because they do. The problem is that the Publishers have been consolidated over the last 10 years to just a handful of huge companies and those companies don't want to get out of bed for any potential game that isn't a guaranteed 10 million copies sold.

 

All that's required to make an old-school MMO viable at this point is a crowd-funding campaign. I'm sure something is being put together by a studio somewhere. And if not, whoever picks up on this and gets there first is going to reap the rewards. Possibly being set up for life, like Blizzard.

Listen to Chris Roberts talk about this: The Last 10 Years in Video Games

And if there is a success, it somehow ends up in the hands of the publisher and history tells the rest.

Perhaps, but I think that things might be a tad different this time around.

 

Keep in mind that most of the CEO's of the famous, small studios were in their teens and 20's when they made it big time. Literally just kids with no business sense. They're older now - you'd think they'd learn from their mistakes, including selling themselves off to the big publishers and destroying their IP's.

 

Hell even Chris Roberts sold his studio to EA. Everyone did, back then. History doesn't have to repeat itself, necessarily.

Until kickstarter allows actual investment / ownership of the game, we're just absorbing all the risk for them, and even if we get a game, we could still have it "wowified" and lose the reward,

Someone else always has their finger on the power button.

You are absolutely correct in that conjecture. It's a leap of faith to crowd-fund.

 

But if a reputable developer comes around, promises not to sell to a publisher - says the the game will be designed for "old-school" gamers and remain that way, I think they would probably follow through with their promise.

 

After all, if the game sells well as an "old-school" game, why change the model? Developers are more like us than we may realize - they're gamers and artists. They're the ultimate customer of their own product. They'd probably like to take control of their own projects. All of the games that we've seen in the past that have evolved for the worst have done so at the beckoning of publishers - not developers.

 

Though your theory is something to worry about, it's not based on any evidence yet. I'd rather take the leap of faith a few times in the near future as it only costs me (as an individual) $30-60 per game to donate to potentially years of enjoyment, it's a no-brainer for me.

They 'should' be able to sell. I don't want to prevent money from being made. I'd rather have everyone on the same team with the same vision and commitment to the end . A big happy family lol. Id buy future products from that company.

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  Tibernicuspa

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/03/13
Posts: 986

11/10/13 1:33:23 PM#239
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

Numbers are absolutely useless if you don't understand their context. MMORPGs are far more complex than just about any game genre out there, and really hard to understand unless you've been there from the start.

Publishers are in the business of making money, not studying social theory and game design. What works with other genres is to look at what is selling and make games more like that. It usually works. It doesn't with MMOs.

The numbers publishers see is hmm, EverQuest, 500k at peak. UO and SWG, 300k at peak, DAoC, 250k at peak. Hmm, WoW, 13 million... GUESS WHAT WE'RE INVESTING IN BOYS!

They don't dig into the very timing oriented circumstances that birthed WoW. They don't look into specific markets and see which ones are tapped and which ones aren't. They see how many subs WoW has, and they see how many subs hardcore MMOs have. (well some, but most numbers are never released). They see that DAoC has a declining playerbase. They don't dig deep to discover that players started leaving after EA forced the game to be more like WoW. They don't see that SWG died after it got WoWified.

Know why I think that? Because in what SANE world would publishers perfectly understand the market, see 8 years of AAA WoW clones failing to survive beyond a year, and then make another huge budget WoW clone?

 

All the tales from devs using kickstarter paint a bleak picture. Publishers aren't interested in concentrated core experiences. Wasteland 2 got shot down hundreds of times.

Publishers don't get social glue, or how inconveniences in MMOs breed socializing, which breeds players staying longer. Those numbers take someone smart and immersed in the work to understand. Someone like Raph Koster. Not someone like Bobby over at Activision.

 

Publishers don't understand MMOs, that's why they keep backing failed themeparks. Is it more logical that publishers don't understand MMOs, or that the 1million+ people that enjoyed MMOs before WoW turned everything into a themepark... just all vanished?

Good points.

Thanks! I just don't get the faith people have in publishers.

  FinalFikus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/01/13
Posts: 910

"We're up all night to get lucky"

11/10/13 1:46:10 PM#240
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by salaciouscrumbs
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Loktofeit
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
You guys seem to have this weird faith in publishers. You say "If the market existed, thered be a game for it" as if Publisher understood the market. IF publishers understood MMOs, we wouldn't have the massive commercial failures that almost every AAA MMO has seen over the last 8 years.

Bump.

In this day and age, a publisher isn't really necessary for most MMOs, especially a niche one. 

That's immaterial, though, as no one is putting blind faith in publishers. However it's a pretty damn good bet that they have done a lot deeper research and have far more reliable numbers at their disposal than those who are here waggling fingers at them. Right?

Numbers are absolutely useless if you don't understand their context. MMORPGs are far more complex than just about any game genre out there, and really hard to understand unless you've been there from the start.

Publishers are in the business of making money, not studying social theory and game design. What works with other genres is to look at what is selling and make games more like that. It usually works. It doesn't with MMOs.

The numbers publishers see is hmm, EverQuest, 500k at peak. UO and SWG, 300k at peak, DAoC, 250k at peak. Hmm, WoW, 13 million... GUESS WHAT WE'RE INVESTING IN BOYS!

They don't dig into the very timing oriented circumstances that birthed WoW. They don't look into specific markets and see which ones are tapped and which ones aren't. They see how many subs WoW has, and they see how many subs hardcore MMOs have. (well some, but most numbers are never released). They see that DAoC has a declining playerbase. They don't dig deep to discover that players started leaving after EA forced the game to be more like WoW. They don't see that SWG died after it got WoWified.

Know why I think that? Because in what SANE world would publishers perfectly understand the market, see 8 years of AAA WoW clones failing to survive beyond a year, and then make another huge budget WoW clone?

 

All the tales from devs using kickstarter paint a bleak picture. Publishers aren't interested in concentrated core experiences. Wasteland 2 got shot down hundreds of times.

Publishers don't get social glue, or how inconveniences in MMOs breed socializing, which breeds players staying longer. Those numbers take someone smart and immersed in the work to understand. Someone like Raph Koster. Not someone like Bobby over at Activision.

 

Publishers don't understand MMOs, that's why they keep backing failed themeparks. Is it more logical that publishers don't understand MMOs, or that the 1million+ people that enjoyed MMOs before WoW turned everything into a themepark... just all vanished?

Good points.

Thanks! I just don't get the faith people have in publishers.

Do people put faith in lawyers?

"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

13 Pages First « 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 » Search