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News & Features Discussion  » [General Article] World of Warcraft: The Evolution of WoW

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  Gardavsshade

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 663

11/08/13 11:14:40 AM#21
Originally posted by Mors.Magne
Originally posted by Heatsink98
The dumbing of the game design over the years is a real problem.  Unless this new expansion injects real depth back into WoW gameplay, the slide will continue.  The designers have a product now where progression means seeing bigger numbers floating over mobs' heads, and they expect that to be entertaining.  Oh, and Pokemon, there's that now, too.

I agree that WoW's depth has been diminished and this is a bad thing, e.g. - crafting used to be more powerful - now there is no point.

 

However, I liked the PvP pet battles because you can play them if you have a spare 5 minutes. The problem with the PvP pet battles is that you must go raiding for the rewards to be useful. So you can't play the end-game of WoW on a casual basis.

 

WoW's end-game activities (raiding etc) demand many hours (half a day etc.) on a daily/weekly basis. This limits the fan-base and gives MMORPGs in general a very bad name, e.g. - nerdy, no life, antisocial etc.

Hmm... this again. No matter how I try to answer statements like these I always end up looking like Loki or some other Jerk like that.... here goes....

MMOs were NOT and NEVER WERE made "for the Masses".... they were NOT for People with busy lives that don't have hours and hours to play a game. Blizzard did not change that no matter what their Marketers think they did.

With all due respect to all People who ever played MMOs but never understood this simple FACT.... MMOs were not intended to be "Casual Friendly" or "Quick Entertainment". MMOs were originally made for geeks, nerds, and dorks, who lived with their Personal Computers like a Spouse, who dreamed of a virtual worlds that THEY could mold and shape to THEIR will (in contrast to the will of the Masses). Saving time was NOT a design parameter, on the contrary... spending time in your favorite MMO was a FEATURE. Working together with other Players for hours while in a Group was a FEATURE.

No matter how many so-called improvements Blizzard made to the MMO Model, in the end it doesn't matter... MMOs are still MMOs and even Blizzard could not change that without altering WoW so much that Players stopped referring to it as a MMO.  Some Players already have stopped referring to WoW as a MMO btw.

Now that being said.... I am not going to say today "get out of my MMO genre"... in belongs to all of us Players so I welcome all to enjoy it.... but PLEASE REALIZE that calls and suggestions to make MMOs anymore solo and casual friendly than what they already ARE is a call or a suggestion to turn MMOs into a game of another genre entirely. MMOs will cease to be MMOs if this so-called "evolution" continues.

We are not trying to be anti-social: Some of us Players are NOT calling for Players to "Get off our Lawns".... we are calling for "Walk on our Lawns if you wish to but please respect our property and don't hurt it". There is a big difference in those two statements and outlooks.

You want to call me anti-social, nerdy, you want to accuse me of having no life? Go right ahead. Just remember this analogy if you want to understand why we don't agree with "improving" MMOs for the Masses....for example.... I do not  visit FaceBook calling people stupid for sharing their personal info and pics on an Internet system not designed for adequate security and privacy of personal information.... Yet I could do this but I do not for it would be considered rude to stand on a virtual street corner and warn everyone how foolish FaceBook is.... I care what happens to People in general, but the Masses won't listen to People telling them their activities on FB are dangerous because People have already been warned about this for years and the Masses don't care to hear the message.

...but you see here is the "Kicker".... THAT is exactly what People are doing when they say on one hand they play MMOs and on the other hand ask they be completely changed.... I personally find suggestions by Players to make MMOs more solo friendly and less time consuming to be a rude and anti-social behavior against the demographic of Players that MMOs were made for in the first place. It would be like going to a BaseBall game and demanding that the Team Owner put in Football Goal Posts even though they are counter-productive to Gameplay for BaseBall.

Keeping MMOs group oriented and time consuming like old school MMOs hurts no one contrary to the opinions of some People. MMOs needed improvements, yes, improvements in graphics, in the game engines, in account security, NOT in gameplay design and philosophy and Key Features.

So maybe now People will understand better why some of us loyal old school MMO fans get so cranky.... We never said you could not walk on our Lawn....we invited you to our Lawns(play MMOs with us) in the first place..... but you DID dig holes in it and mess it up as you walked across it, and some are still doing this.... that Lawn was Our before it was also Yours. We need to share it as it was designed to be, if we don't eventually it won't be a Lawn anymore, it will just be a sand lot full of weeds and trash.

If Players want and desire a new type of game that is solo friendly yet also multiplayer, that can be played in quick, short bursts of time, then COOL, ask the Devs to make one for all the Players that want this (and ask them to NOT call it a MMO).... but please DON'T ask them to change an existing genre that already has loyal Fans.

I have put this out as respectfully as I could. I hope People will understand. Have a good day.

  wbrown1207

Novice Member

Joined: 8/17/05
Posts: 2

11/08/13 11:34:04 AM#22
Very we'll said Gard.  A little long, but articulate, respectful and in my opinion true.  I never post on here but I felt compelled to after reading this.  Whether you get flamed or not, know that many of us agree with your analogy and assessment.
  Theocritus

Apprentice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 3625

11/08/13 11:39:18 AM#23
The only thing I thought WoW needed to do was at some point bring in a 3rd faction.....Can you imagine how fun the BGs would have been with a 3rd faction that hates both sides involved?....IMO had they made that move the game would not have declined the last couple of years like it has......
  MMOManiacs

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/14/07
Posts: 194

11/08/13 11:58:55 AM#24
Originally posted by PWN_FACE
Originally posted by dorugu

what they need is to stop listening 2 the locusts tht treat very mmo like a race to max lvl after all theyre not the ones tht stay the longest :)

i would want more hidden quests objects and lore tidbits and more exploration and deeper non linear dungeons and  more customization options

Good ideas. Exploration rewards and Easter eggs would certainly get people of all levels back out in the world at large and revitalize Azeroth if well thought out.

 

And how about level scaling and some type of dynamic events? It must be do-able, so let's see what happens in the future. It just seems like all the effort to re-craft the open world has been wasted, so far. It's a great world and people should have a reason to be in it after they outlevel the zones.

If you haven't played or kept up to date with wow in a few years, its best to not make suggestions about them needing to add stuff that is either already in the game, or currently in development.

  Mors.Magne

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/07
Posts: 1432

11/08/13 12:22:28 PM#25
Originally posted by Gardavsshade
Originally posted by Mors.Magne
Originally posted by Heatsink98
The dumbing of the game design over the years is a real problem.  Unless this new expansion injects real depth back into WoW gameplay, the slide will continue.  The designers have a product now where progression means seeing bigger numbers floating over mobs' heads, and they expect that to be entertaining.  Oh, and Pokemon, there's that now, too.

I agree that WoW's depth has been diminished and this is a bad thing, e.g. - crafting used to be more powerful - now there is no point.

 

However, I liked the PvP pet battles because you can play them if you have a spare 5 minutes. The problem with the PvP pet battles is that you must go raiding for the rewards to be useful. So you can't play the end-game of WoW on a casual basis.

 

WoW's end-game activities (raiding etc) demand many hours (half a day etc.) on a daily/weekly basis. This limits the fan-base and gives MMORPGs in general a very bad name, e.g. - nerdy, no life, antisocial etc.

Hmm... this again. No matter how I try to answer statements like these I always end up looking like Loki or some other Jerk like that.... here goes....

MMOs were NOT and NEVER WERE made "for the Masses".... they were NOT for People with busy lives that don't have hours and hours to play a game. Blizzard did not change that no matter what their Marketers think they did.

With all due respect to all People who ever played MMOs but never understood this simple FACT.... MMOs were not intended to be "Casual Friendly" or "Quick Entertainment". MMOs were originally made for geeks, nerds, and dorks, who lived with their Personal Computers like a Spouse, who dreamed of a virtual worlds that THEY could mold and shape to THEIR will (in contrast to the will of the Masses). Saving time was NOT a design parameter, on the contrary... spending time in your favorite MMO was a FEATURE. Working together with other Players for hours while in a Group was a FEATURE.

No matter how many so-called improvements Blizzard made to the MMO Model, in the end it doesn't matter... MMOs are still MMOs and even Blizzard could not change that without altering WoW so much that Players stopped referring to it as a MMO.  Some Players already have stopped referring to WoW as a MMO btw.

Now that being said.... I am not going to say today "get out of my MMO genre"... in belongs to all of us Players so I welcome all to enjoy it.... but PLEASE REALIZE that calls and suggestions to make MMOs anymore solo and casual friendly than what they already ARE is a call or a suggestion to turn MMOs into a game of another genre entirely. MMOs will cease to be MMOs if this so-called "evolution" continues.

We are not trying to be anti-social: Some of us Players are NOT calling for Players to "Get off our Lawns".... we are calling for "Walk on our Lawns if you wish to but please respect our property and don't hurt it". There is a big difference in those two statements and outlooks.

You want to call me anti-social, nerdy, you want to accuse me of having no life? Go right ahead. Just remember this analogy if you want to understand why we don't agree with "improving" MMOs for the Masses....for example.... I do not  visit FaceBook calling people stupid for sharing their personal info and pics on an Internet system not designed for adequate security and privacy of personal information.... Yet I could do this but I do not for it would be considered rude to stand on a virtual street corner and warn everyone how foolish FaceBook is.... I care what happens to People in general, but the Masses won't listen to People telling them their activities on FB are dangerous because People have already been warned about this for years and the Masses don't care to hear the message.

...but you see here is the "Kicker".... THAT is exactly what People are doing when they say on one hand they play MMOs and on the other hand ask they be completely changed.... I personally find suggestions by Players to make MMOs more solo friendly and less time consuming to be a rude and anti-social behavior against the demographic of Players that MMOs were made for in the first place. It would be like going to a BaseBall game and demanding that the Team Owner put in Football Goal Posts even though they are counter-productive to Gameplay for BaseBall.

Keeping MMOs group oriented and time consuming like old school MMOs hurts no one contrary to the opinions of some People. MMOs needed improvements, yes, improvements in graphics, in the game engines, in account security, NOT in gameplay design and philosophy and Key Features.

So maybe now People will understand better why some of us loyal old school MMO fans get so cranky.... We never said you could not walk on our Lawn....we invited you to our Lawns(play MMOs with us) in the first place..... but you DID dig holes in it and mess it up as you walked across it, and some are still doing this.... that Lawn was Our before it was also Yours. We need to share it as it was designed to be, if we don't eventually it won't be a Lawn anymore, it will just be a sand lot full of weeds and trash.

If Players want and desire a new type of game that is solo friendly yet also multiplayer, that can be played in quick, short bursts of time, then COOL, ask the Devs to make one for all the Players that want this (and ask them to NOT call it a MMO).... but please DON'T ask them to change an existing genre that already has loyal Fans.

I have put this out as respectfully as I could. I hope People will understand. Have a good day.

You're presuming that MMORPGs are only designed for a niche group of people (people who spend a huge amount of time gaming).

 

I disagree. They are a business, e.g. - designed to make a profit. The usual way of doing this is to appeal to as many people as possible.

 

However, all games favour people who are willing to put in more time than others - this isn't a characteristic confined to MMORPGs.

 

For example, some of the most hardcore players I know play FPS games - not MMORPGs.

 
  BizkitNL

Old School

Joined: 12/29/02
Posts: 2318

"Free to play, pay to win""

11/08/13 12:38:00 PM#26
Originally posted by Gardavsshade
Originally posted by Mors.Magne
Originally posted by Heatsink98
The dumbing of the game design over the years is a real problem.  Unless this new expansion injects real depth back into WoW gameplay, the slide will continue.  The designers have a product now where progression means seeing bigger numbers floating over mobs' heads, and they expect that to be entertaining.  Oh, and Pokemon, there's that now, too.

I agree that WoW's depth has been diminished and this is a bad thing, e.g. - crafting used to be more powerful - now there is no point.

 

However, I liked the PvP pet battles because you can play them if you have a spare 5 minutes. The problem with the PvP pet battles is that you must go raiding for the rewards to be useful. So you can't play the end-game of WoW on a casual basis.

 

WoW's end-game activities (raiding etc) demand many hours (half a day etc.) on a daily/weekly basis. This limits the fan-base and gives MMORPGs in general a very bad name, e.g. - nerdy, no life, antisocial etc.

Snip

You seem to be holding on to ancient concepts. Times have changed, so have people. Well, everyone except you.

You see, today, with the huge amount of online games around, an MMO needs a solid playerbase. Not just to survive financially, but also for ingame characteristics, mechanics and the general immersion of it to stay viable and working.

You can't just cater to the "hardcore" fanbase anymore. They don't have maybe 2 MMO's to pick from. They have dozens to pick from. Therefor, you need a casual playerbase as well. You need players to fill up the world.

Striking the balance between the 2 crowds is key. It's also impossible. So yeah...

Feel like trying Planetside 2? Get a headstart with the starter kit!

  Staretssayas

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 2

11/08/13 1:14:37 PM#27
Originally posted by adam_nox
Nothing will compare to the first weeks in WoW.  People who joined after the BGs were patched in will just never quite relate to those that played before that (and didn't grumpily rage quit every time the server kicked them off).

I agree about the first weeks. It and beta were the most fun I've ever had. But I love new game introductions for some of that same experience. 

  Staretssayas

Novice Member

Joined: 9/22/11
Posts: 2

11/08/13 1:34:53 PM#28
Originally posted by Gardavsshade
Originally posted by Mors.Magne
Originally posted by Heatsink98
The dumbing of the game design over the years is a real problem.  Unless this new expansion injects real depth back into WoW gameplay, the slide will continue.  The designers have a product now where progression means seeing bigger numbers floating over mobs' heads, and they expect that to be entertaining.  Oh, and Pokemon, there's that now, too.

I agree that WoW's depth has been diminished and this is a bad thing, e.g. - crafting used to be more powerful - now there is no point.

 

However, I liked the PvP pet battles because you can play them if you have a spare 5 minutes. The problem with the PvP pet battles is that you must go raiding for the rewards to be useful. So you can't play the end-game of WoW on a casual basis.

 

WoW's end-game activities (raiding etc) demand many hours (half a day etc.) on a daily/weekly basis. This limits the fan-base and gives MMORPGs in general a very bad name, e.g. - nerdy, no life, antisocial etc.

Hmm... this again. No matter how I try to answer statements like these I always end up looking like Loki or some other Jerk like that.... here goes....

MMOs were NOT and NEVER WERE made "for the Masses".... they were NOT for People with busy lives that don't have hours and hours to play a game. Blizzard did not change that no matter what their Marketers think they did.

With all due respect to all People who ever played MMOs but never understood this simple FACT.... MMOs were not intended to be "Casual Friendly" or "Quick Entertainment". MMOs were originally made for geeks, nerds, and dorks, who lived with their Personal Computers like a Spouse, who dreamed of a virtual worlds that THEY could mold and shape to THEIR will (in contrast to the will of the Masses). Saving time was NOT a design parameter, on the contrary... spending time in your favorite MMO was a FEATURE. Working together with other Players for hours while in a Group was a FEATURE.

No matter how many so-called improvements Blizzard made to the MMO Model, in the end it doesn't matter... MMOs are still MMOs and even Blizzard could not change that without altering WoW so much that Players stopped referring to it as a MMO.  Some Players already have stopped referring to WoW as a MMO btw.

Now that being said.... I am not going to say today "get out of my MMO genre"... in belongs to all of us Players so I welcome all to enjoy it.... but PLEASE REALIZE that calls and suggestions to make MMOs anymore solo and casual friendly than what they already ARE is a call or a suggestion to turn MMOs into a game of another genre entirely. MMOs will cease to be MMOs if this so-called "evolution" continues.

We are not trying to be anti-social: Some of us Players are NOT calling for Players to "Get off our Lawns".... we are calling for "Walk on our Lawns if you wish to but please respect our property and don't hurt it". There is a big difference in those two statements and outlooks.

You want to call me anti-social, nerdy, you want to accuse me of having no life? Go right ahead. Just remember this analogy if you want to understand why we don't agree with "improving" MMOs for the Masses....for example.... I do not  visit FaceBook calling people stupid for sharing their personal info and pics on an Internet system not designed for adequate security and privacy of personal information.... Yet I could do this but I do not for it would be considered rude to stand on a virtual street corner and warn everyone how foolish FaceBook is.... I care what happens to People in general, but the Masses won't listen to People telling them their activities on FB are dangerous because People have already been warned about this for years and the Masses don't care to hear the message.

...but you see here is the "Kicker".... THAT is exactly what People are doing when they say on one hand they play MMOs and on the other hand ask they be completely changed.... I personally find suggestions by Players to make MMOs more solo friendly and less time consuming to be a rude and anti-social behavior against the demographic of Players that MMOs were made for in the first place. It would be like going to a BaseBall game and demanding that the Team Owner put in Football Goal Posts even though they are counter-productive to Gameplay for BaseBall.

Keeping MMOs group oriented and time consuming like old school MMOs hurts no one contrary to the opinions of some People. MMOs needed improvements, yes, improvements in graphics, in the game engines, in account security, NOT in gameplay design and philosophy and Key Features.

So maybe now People will understand better why some of us loyal old school MMO fans get so cranky.... We never said you could not walk on our Lawn....we invited you to our Lawns(play MMOs with us) in the first place..... but you DID dig holes in it and mess it up as you walked across it, and some are still doing this.... that Lawn was Our before it was also Yours. We need to share it as it was designed to be, if we don't eventually it won't be a Lawn anymore, it will just be a sand lot full of weeds and trash.

If Players want and desire a new type of game that is solo friendly yet also multiplayer, that can be played in quick, short bursts of time, then COOL, ask the Devs to make one for all the Players that want this (and ask them to NOT call it a MMO).... but please DON'T ask them to change an existing genre that already has loyal Fans.

I have put this out as respectfully as I could. I hope People will understand. Have a good day.

 

It's rare to gain a whole new perspective from a forum post. Thank you! Personally, I wish there was a way to kind of combine both. I wish there was a way to  immerse for a Saturday in that group nerd dynamic without the huge ramp up or ongoing commitment. I don't need  a game committed to 30 minutes of solo play time but I can't go back to the exclusion of everything else for weeks, months, years at a time. I don't know how you'd make an experience like I envision. For me, Rift's instant adventures come kind of close I guess. 

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

11/08/13 2:05:50 PM#29

This article probably should have mentioned Diablo since that series is basically a small scale version of a MMORPG. WoW borrowed the game story/style from the Warcraft series but it is much more influenced by the diablo games for everything else.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1939

11/09/13 8:48:30 AM#30
Really great article. Thanks OP. :-) Only game (along with Swtor) I can easily immagine to play even after next 10 or 20 years. :-) Through expansions of course, without no game can have lasting appeal for ever.
  Sukiyaki

Elite Member

Joined: 8/14/09
Posts: 1348

11/13/13 3:16:34 PM#31
Originally posted by Sajman01
WoW is doing fine and will be for a long time.

Newer MMOs like ARR, GW2, and TOR are all flaming out. Players are returning to WoW, hence the better than expected quarterly report.

Expecting significant decline and seeing a minor decline (hence "better than expected") only slowed down by a major contentpatch, isnt exactly the most compelling argument to claim other games are dying and WoW gains back player, when the samequarterly report say WoW sales are down and reached a new low.

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