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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: PVE vs PVP

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139 posts found
  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

11/08/13 1:10:23 PM#61
This pvpers raging for balance thing.

It happens much more in pve orientated games with tacked on later pvp like wow, than it does in pvp orientated games.

When your pvp Is mostly lobby based 10 vs 10 matches and what have you, differences in balance show up more.

In a rvr game like daoc or planetside it matters less

In a sandbox like eve or uo it doesn't matter at all, everyone is free to make alliances and work on their builds as they wish.
  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 2035

11/08/13 1:11:47 PM#62
Originally posted by ninjagranny

LOTRO is a great example of  when PvP fails - The PvP area gives PvE usable rewards and the enemy can just buy skills . It also has no level restriction  which leads to rampant ganking , which stops players from bothering and also annoys players as the PvPers get big PvE bonuses which the PvE can't get

That's a new... maybe we play different versions of LotRO? :) There's the saying for a reason "what happens in the Moors stays in the Moors"... I'm not sure what usable PvE rewards and big PvE bonuses you're talking about.

Ettenmoors is a fully separate minigame, with close to zero effect on the PvE gameplay luckily. If freeps have the keeps, the world gets a minor buff (everybody gets it), and the pvp'ers receive a few titles and a (cosmetic) pvp mount. That's all. The creeps cannot leave the 'Moors. What bonuses? :)

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2094

11/08/13 1:12:11 PM#63


Originally posted by goldtoof
This pvpers raging for balance thing.It happens much more in pve orientated games with tacked on later pvp like wow, than it does in pvp orientated games.When your pvp Is mostly lobby based 10 vs 10 matches and what have you, differences in balance show up more.In a rvr game like daoc or planetside it matters lessIn a sandbox like eve or uo it doesn't matter at all, everyone is free to make alliances and work on their builds as they wish.

You must not have played DAOC at release. Never seen a game with more balance complaints than that one. They were well founded too, nothing like a stealthed Scout one shotting my warrior. DAOC's balance was atrocious at release.

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

11/08/13 1:13:37 PM#64
Ender you've not played daoc obviously. It has a huge amount of pve content. It has raids that take 24 hours. It has over 50 dungeons. The pve in daoc is pretty much the same as everquest and nothing like darkfall.
  Crucial

Novice Member

Joined: 1/08/07
Posts: 27

11/08/13 1:15:18 PM#65
Split a MMO in two part is a piece of shit IMHO, MMO need to be a virtual world to be good, both PvE and PvP are important, equally, they need to exist to complete each other.
  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 557

11/08/13 1:17:17 PM#66
Originally posted by goldtoof
This pvpers raging for balance thing.

It happens much more in pve orientated games with tacked on later pvp like wow, than it does in pvp orientated games.

When your pvp Is mostly lobby based 10 vs 10 matches and what have you, differences in balance show up more.

In a rvr game like daoc or planetside it matters less

In a sandbox like eve or uo it doesn't matter at all, everyone is free to make alliances and work on their builds as they wish.

yup, when it's one or the other it's much easier/faster/and more pleasing to the player base finding/addressing issues thanks to being isolated.  Add in another complete system and your lead time just to find the (*&(*& issue increases an order of magnitude, let alone fixing it in such a way that doesn't end up pissing everyone off..

  Ender4

Hard Core Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2094

11/08/13 1:18:31 PM#67


Originally posted by goldtoof
Ender you've not played daoc obviously. It has a huge amount of pve content. It has raids that take 24 hours. It has over 50 dungeons. The pve in daoc is pretty much the same as everquest and nothing like darkfall.

It did not have that in release that is for sure. It had a handful of dungeons that weren't itemized and not a single raid. The game was dying so they added PvE in the expansion. I beta tested DAOC, I was friends with people that worked on it. Their entire point was to not have a PvE based end game like EQ DAOC was the definition of a PvP focused game when it came out.

The 1st expansion started to add dungeons, the 3rd added raids. The 4th revisited RvR and the 5th added dragons. The original game PvE was almost an afterthought. They added more and more to compete with the other games out there.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3202

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

11/08/13 1:23:03 PM#68


Originally posted by goldtoof
AlBquirky

I disagree. Good pvp mmos don't have everyone the same.

Let's look at 4 of the best mmos for pvp.
Uo - had a freeform skill based system
Eve - has a freeform skill based system
Daoc - has over 40 classes, and the classes are unique to faction
Planetside - each side has different find and vehicles

When you make everyone the same you get boring pvp - see gw2, see how pvp went down hill in wow when both sides got shaman and paladin.

Difference fuels conflict, everyone thinks the other side is overpowered, so they get stubborn and dig in.



I see what you're saying and agree that differences are good. That being said...

A few questions, if I may.
UO - Could anyone choose any of those skills to work at and did PvP builds abound?
EVE - Same question.
DAoC - Were there better PvP classes that many players chose, or did they implement them to work well, or better, with other classes? (I do not know, never played.)
Planetside - Really? That sounds odd to me :) Was it like differing technologies?

I agree that differences can fuel conflict, especially when a Paladin-type character meets a Necromancer-type character in the world. Game mechanic and numbers seem to get in the way of situation, though :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Hariken

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/13
Posts: 508

11/08/13 1:26:21 PM#69
Originally posted by DMKano

One thing I've learned over the years, both from personal experience and talking to actual game designers during game shows - you focus on ONE aspect and do it well - so you either make a PvP game or PvE game essentially, doing both and expecting them both to be equally important and balanced is next to impossible.

This may be a hard pill to swallow, but thats the hard reality, each game has either PvE or PvP focus, never both, because at least you can do one well - focusing on both systems, you end up failing at both PvE and PvP.

 

 

 

Enough said,this is why most mmo's flat out suck. Game dev's need to decide what game they are making and stop trying to please everyone. Just waiting for a company to have the balls to do this. A PVE only mmo would be the new biggest game because it would be focused on one type of game play. A PVP only mmo would only be a niche game at best. 
  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3202

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

11/08/13 1:28:29 PM#70


Originally posted by goldtoof
Ender you've not played daoc obviously. It has a huge amount of pve content. It has raids that take 24 hours. It has over 50 dungeons. The pve in daoc is pretty much the same as everquest and nothing like darkfall.

Can you tell me what PvP content consists of? How do devs "develop" PvP content?

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Mahavishnu

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/17/12
Posts: 339

11/08/13 1:30:09 PM#71

1. Some hard core pvpers argue, that MMOs like WoW-classic that have no pvp-system at all deliver the best possible pvp-experience.

2. My biggest concern with PvP/PvE is imbalanced gameplay because of leveling and item-Progression. PvP should always be about player skill. It is pure horror, that some ego-shooters have begun to copy this stuff from MMOs.

3. I think WvWvW in GW2 really hit the nail on the head.

4. One big problem today is, that players tend to use every possible part of a game to their advantage (higher level, better weapons, outnumbering, exploits, hacks, etc.) instead of aiming at a fair and challenging pvp-experience.

5. Worst way to make it: WoW. Their System encouraged players to just stand around in their BGs. Resilence was the worst idea ever.

Advertising has us chasing cars and clothes, working jobs we hate so we can buy shit we don't need.

  maskedweasel

Tipster

Joined: 9/24/07
Posts: 7264

"Kids, try imagining how far the universe extends! Keep thinking about it until you go insane."

11/08/13 1:41:16 PM#72

I'm a big fan of both PvE and PvP,  and when PvP is good, generally its VERY good,  except that there will always be an inherrent  "I win" button  be it a programming flaw, or a class imbalance, or a particular hack or item or something of the sort.

 

Its like the idea of taking a well geared damage tank and sticking it with its very own pocket healer (or healers depending on the game)  situations like that are nearly impossible to beat for any uncoordinated team, and therein lies the key.  Very basic tricks from a coordinated team really changes the landscape between enjoyable PvP and frustrating PvP.   

 

In the same sense, you could say the same of PvE,  but a little bit of a masochistic view on PvE is a good thing,  because, like the olden days of gaming,  levels are supposed to be hard, and then when you get past them, you actually have that sigh of relief and achievement.  Then its on to the next thing.    This was partially the love/hate relationship I had with the FFXIV story... they forced dungeons and boss monsters on you,  and while I hated the dungeons,  learning and finally beating the boss monsters (they weren't too tough on NM but still)  was fun and kind of challenging.

 

Theres really no catch all for these two things to work together in tandem to make one game everyone will love.   I want more challenging general PvE content,  and also more diverse PvP content...    ....   .....  ....  ..... and I don't want it to be expensive either.  

"Loan me a Dragon I wanna see space"


  Reklaw

Elite Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6165

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

11/08/13 1:46:54 PM#73
Originally posted by DMKano

One thing I've learned over the years, both from personal experience and talking to actual game designers during game shows - you focus on ONE aspect and do it well - so you either make a PvP game or PvE game essentially, doing both and expecting them both to be equally important and balanced is next to impossible.

This may be a hard pill to swallow, but thats the hard reality, each game has either PvE or PvP focus, never both, because at least you can do one well - focusing on both systems, you end up failing at both PvE and PvP.

 

 

My minor issue on this is that you just removed the reason why I play MMORPG. If I want a pure PVE game I love my singleplayer RPG's, if I want a pure PVP game I already love my FPS online games.

MMORPG's use to be allot for different playstyle's, but not in the sence one can be all which is the direction most current MMO's have taken. No I am talking about someone who loves PVE could do so in the old, those who loved PVP could do so, Those who loved crafting and gathering could do so. And if you wanted to enjoy other aspect of the game which you where not (ingame) trained for you use/create/engage into the community. Which brought community's also closer together.

In today's game one toon can do it all and I feel there is why this genre seems dumped down. This genre has even go so far that one toon can switch roles/classes.

 

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 557

11/08/13 1:50:38 PM#74
Originally posted by maskedweasel

 

Theres really no catch all for these two things to work together in tandem to make one game everyone will love.   I want more challenging general PvE content,  and also more diverse PvP content...    ....   .....  ....  ..... and I don't want it to be expensive either.  

You should design one then.

  avalon1000

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/04/08
Posts: 727

11/08/13 2:08:51 PM#75

Last night in an invasion on Firefall people were surprised (I for one) that they enabled PvP IN THE INVASION AREA without telling anyone. Not good Red 5.

I find that PvE and PvP are not really good things to mix in the same game. Games that are PvE only or PvP only seem to balance out the best. When you try to do both it never quite works out.

  Mykell

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/30/06
Posts: 598

11/08/13 2:28:11 PM#76
but at least then they can cry hacks or cheating

Anyone else read this as "they can TRY hacks or cheating" lol?

  iJustWant

Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 82

11/08/13 2:42:11 PM#77

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  znaiika

Novice Member

Joined: 1/31/12
Posts: 202

11/08/13 3:45:50 PM#78
Every game can be played by both pvp and pve player base, just have to separate/part to pvp and pve servers. Usually if I want to pvp I always go back to my css which is not gear grind or level grind, just pure skill based pvp, I believe MMORPG is all about social not a contest play, it's not about looking for mindless AI, I am looking forward to smart AI not boring time kill boss fights.
  Dr_Negative

Novice Member

Joined: 8/14/07
Posts: 47

11/08/13 3:47:55 PM#79
Originally posted by Ender4

 

It did not have that in release that is for sure. It had a handful of dungeons that weren't itemized and not a single raid. The game was dying so they added PvE in the expansion. I beta tested DAOC, I was friends with people that worked on it. Their entire point was to not have a PvE based end game like EQ DAOC was the definition of a PvP focused game when it came out.

The 1st expansion started to add dungeons, the 3rd added raids. The 4th revisited RvR and the 5th added dragons. The original game PvE was almost an afterthought. They added more and more to compete with the other games out there.

Whoa dude, former beta player here myself,  let me refresh your memory.

 

First of all the game wasn't dying when Mythic started rolling out expansions. After launch, it quickly plateau at about 250k subs and remained there till around the 4th expansion (Catacombs)...and also WoW's launch.

 

See: http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png

 

The 1st expansion (SI) added dungeons AND an entire landmass of pure PvE content. The 2nd one added raids and another huge landmass of pure PvE related content (ToA). The third one gave us even more PvE content including instanced PvE dungeons (Catacombs).  The 4th one gave us our epic champion weapon along with a long PvE questline to earn it, as well as an island that connected the frontier zones. (Darkness Rising). And the 5th (Labby) gaves us a hybrid RvR/PvE addition to the frontiers with a relic mini-game, and Dragons as you mentioned came after in patch events. New Frontiers was considered to be a patch, but it's the only major PvP content expansion Mythic really undertook.

 

In my opinion the PvP is the best part about DAoC, but to say that the PvE was an afterthought is ludicrous.... even concerning the launch version. It took 3 months of PvE just to get to PvP at 50 in those days. The ToA expansion was so controversial because you were forced to PvE (countless hours) if you didn't want to get wiped PvP.

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
  DeathWolf2u

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/04/04
Posts: 298

A new year let's hope for new games that don't suck.

11/08/13 3:53:14 PM#80

'Star Wars Galaxies' in the first 2 to 4 months of first public retail release had the best PvP hands down, want to know why......

 

No one had a script program yet made for 'SWG'. That and PvP played out like an FPS game too where your skill with the keyboard and mouse was just as important as the character type and skills you had. Plus I had a Bounty Hunter / Pistoleer with the best weapons a Master Weaponsmith could make, it was pure awesomeness.

 

That was the best PvP fighting I ever had in any mmorpg type game where no one was cheating with scripting otherwise I prefer to fight other players with pure keyboard and mouse skill in FPS only games.

 

 

 

 

 
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