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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » I think its over.

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415 posts found
  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1321

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

11/06/13 5:09:31 PM#361


Originally posted by tristanryan
I mostly drink beer, read forums and wonder what the f*** happened.

Sorry for the rant.


Great great post, OP. Same here, lol; minus the beer.



Originally posted by vort3x
I am curious about Elder Scrolls online, but i think that's just because I wanna see just how much they can f*** the Elder Scrolls PI up by making it even more shallow and straight forward, just to make sure any f***ing ape out there that could buy the game will understand it and know how to play it.

After all we wouldn't want stupid illiterate people to feel inferior, now would we? :S



Nice. New slogan for the industry: "We make you feel like a winner; even when you're not."

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Mtibbs1989

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 2501

11/07/13 12:14:44 AM#362
Originally posted by PWN_FACE
Originally posted by Pala

Its not really just MMOs, everything is being dumbed down, books, movies, tv. It really seems like

culture has gone into a retard mode and I am sure it is to do with the ideas of mass market and

the lovwest common denominator ie the idiot majority.

 

You are right that you will not find what you want here, I have given up and just dip in here and

there, enjoy bits and pieces of whats on offer but am aware that ultimately what I am playing at

the moment is not very good.

 

 

I'm sure a lot of us have seen this, but it must be entered into the record:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy

 

 

Every time I watch that movie I die a little inside; because it's absolutely true.


Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 943

11/07/13 12:34:14 AM#363
Originally posted by Scot
 

I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

I don't really agree with this when it comes to games. In games with difficulty levels, certainly not everybody plays on easy even though you would finish the game fastest and with the least stress on easy.  Games like Dark Souls are quite popular. I think it shows that a lot of people want to be challenged by their games. 

 

Problem with MMOs is because a few people want to play on easy mode that's what they have to default to because they haven't figured out a way to give different levels of challenge to different players (at least in the single player experience of MMOs).

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5151

11/07/13 3:05:35 AM#364

Indeed difficulty has defaulted to the lowest common denominator, easy as possible. I am not sure what the other poster meant about challenging me to make two paths, one not easier than the other. What I am saying is lets just have one path. This principle works well right across MMO design. One way to get the best PvP gear, one way to get the best PvE gear and so on.

I liked the idea of Foomerang who said they could try to make travel into something players would enjoy, to give travel content. How about a mini game? You travel across continents by playing a mini game which racks up travel points and achievements.

  Quirhid

Novice Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

11/07/13 6:26:49 AM#365
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Scot
 

I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

I don't really agree with this when it comes to games. In games with difficulty levels, certainly not everybody plays on easy even though you would finish the game fastest and with the least stress on easy.  Games like Dark Souls are quite popular. I think it shows that a lot of people want to be challenged by their games. 

 

Problem with MMOs is because a few people want to play on easy mode that's what they have to default to because they haven't figured out a way to give different levels of challenge to different players (at least in the single player experience of MMOs).

Games like Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

The classic way of making a game.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 2937

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

11/07/13 7:26:09 AM#366


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by lizardbones
The minimal definition of RPG is a game where players assume the role of characters in a fictional setting. Doom and Quake are RPGs in the minimal sense.

However, a more commonly held idea is that RPGs include character development, and the option to act through the character in an ongoing narrative, usually with other people. This only requires a setting, it doesn't require a virtual world. It doesn't require making friends either, since single player games can be RPGs. Even preferring a lobby over a persistent, shared environment doesn't preclude a game from being an RPG. D3 is an RPG, but it doesn't have a persistent, shared environment.

I hear what you're saying, but these are just not things that decide whether or not games are RPGs or not. They could certainly be things that divide players into "RPG Players" or not.



I agree with your concept of RPG. I always thought of Doom and Hexxen as RPGs in the minimal sense. The same with the early SSI games and it would be hard to argue that the character progression there was anything but one-dimensional.

It would be better to try and define different sorts of RPG experiences rather than shoehorn everything into the same box. I think of RPG as the neighborhood with different houses representing the different styles and approaches.



That is a good basis with which to start, bones. Call it "BRPG" - Basic Role Playing Game?

It would be interesting to see what kinds of subsets of RPG the industry could come up with, Torvaldr. We do kind of have "ARPG" for Action Role Playing Games, very similar to "AAG" - Action Adventure Games.

I would appreciate knowing beforehand what kind of RPG a game is before taking a look at it, just like I would appreciate knowing what kind of MMO a game is.

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  sportsfan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 365

11/07/13 7:31:02 AM#367

Most will go back to WoW.

The rest will never touch a MMORPG again.

 

  sportsfan

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/20/12
Posts: 365

11/07/13 7:33:18 AM#368
Originally posted by picommander
Originally posted by snoocky
Agree to... i gave up on MMO's to.
But enjoying the hell out of Skyrim :)

^This. As long as we still have decent and ambicious single players the world isn't quite lost. Just for me and the MMO market.

Skyrim is even more of a dead end for long term play ... the moment you realise you enter a world of NPC's...

Who wants to show off his stamp collection or dress to ... a puppet ?

 

 

  Scypheroth

Novice Member

Joined: 10/15/11
Posts: 248

11/07/13 7:40:44 AM#369

MMORPG's are they way they are because the new generations are lazy...EVERYONE even 5 year old KIDS have cellphones...EVERYONE has access to the internet...EVERYONE is given a new car when they get there drivers...everything is soo easy and handed to them now a days they expect the same lazy routine gameplay in every mmo....why should the kids leave home if they got it good there?

This genrea is stuck in a infiniate loop....introducing "new" ideas that really arnt new at all...you cant improve on crap...and you cant change the lazyness of america.

  TheRealDarkeus

Novice Member

Joined: 6/26/13
Posts: 275

“I thought what I'd do was, I'd pretend I was one of those deaf-mutes.

11/07/13 7:44:52 AM#370

I am late to the MMO crowd as my first game was RIFT.  However, I can say this.  MMO games were different than what I was told back when I was not playing.  I expected one thing coming in and found a more solo-friendly social hub RPGs instead.

 

I don't think the genre is dead though.  As Kickstarter has taught us, there is demand for games that people think are 'niche'.  A demand that will make much money.

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5151

11/07/13 9:34:21 AM#371
Originally posted by Quirhid
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Scot
 

I think its human nature, the only to stop it is not to have an easy path.

I don't really agree with this when it comes to games. In games with difficulty levels, certainly not everybody plays on easy even though you would finish the game fastest and with the least stress on easy.  Games like Dark Souls are quite popular. I think it shows that a lot of people want to be challenged by their games. 

 

Problem with MMOs is because a few people want to play on easy mode that's what they have to default to because they haven't figured out a way to give different levels of challenge to different players (at least in the single player experience of MMOs).

Games like Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

The classic way of making a game.

I totally agree, my one difficulty path does not mean you have to have a crap UI and no tutorials. I was thinking more along the lines of too much instant travel for example. The path would have variable difficulty at different stages, but stick with one method. For example there were two ways of getting PvP gear in SWTOR, and yes you guessed it, everyone took the easy route.

 

  Ashstomper

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/08/11
Posts: 6

11/07/13 9:39:03 AM#372
Originally posted by BloodyViking

Agree with OP.

I look back at Asheron's Call 1 and realize that it had so much that pretty much no current game has. And that was back in 1999/2000.

I miss running around in a huge seamless world exploring.

I miss the danger of dying out there in the wilds and having to run back to my corpse to recover my valuables.

I miss  the feeling of what we do as players having any impact on an ongoing storyline.

I miss an evolving world where from month to month the landscape changes, cities disappear and appear.

I miss twitch combat where your movement has an impact on wether your enemy hits you with his attacks and where you can effectively use terrain to your advantage.

I miss random loot that feels relevant and broadscoped.

I miss having my own cottage out there in the wilds where I can hang my trophies.

I miss killing monsters for trophies that I can give to a collector of such instead of the stupid and inane "Kill XX mobs quests".

I miss designing my own character with his own skills and attributes.

I miss being able to choose my weapons from my own taste and not because someone said that "that class cant use XXX!"

I miss researching spells on my own.

I am -SO- tired of the cookiecutter corridor-world bullshit thrown at us as Grade AAA MMO games.

And what I am the MOST tired of of is the young gamers of today which seems so INCREDIBLY entitled to everything. This and that MUST be made EASIER!

Personaly, I am hoping for a new world war so we can weed out all the DNA trash sitting around in front of the consoles and their WoW-style games. Thats how disgusted I am at the state of the MMO world. You destroyed my games you dingholes!

^^^  Exactly this!

  Takoo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/13
Posts: 104

11/07/13 11:13:00 AM#373

What do you expect.. You have all these new players who have only played wow and any features that make the game hard they dismiss. Corpse runs, full pvp, exp loss, longer grind, no Duty Finder all make these people vomit. The worst part is they have never played a game with any of t hese things in it. Yet they say it sounds awful and they want nothing to do with it.

 

So we keep getting these face roll solo all the way to 50 games..

 

I have been playing PSo2 which isn't even really an MMO and it has a better community than any of the current mmos. Mostly because half of the stuff is in japanese and is kinda confusing. Its different so you have to learn some new things. It has a pretty long grind 3-4 months to max level. It has missions that can't be done if you don't have a decent team. So you have community.

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 943

11/07/13 12:29:01 PM#374
Originally posted by Quirhid
ike Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

 

+1 to this although I doubt any devs really seek to make games hard through bad UI or tutorial, those things are usually just bad design (or the game being so complex that it requires a convoluted UI and can't be summarized well in a tutorial - I think this only applies to strategy games though.) .

 

Things like having no fast travel or levelling slowly are not tedious if the game is designed as you describe. If there's constant danger of dying while running back to town and dying actually matters than it becomes part of the challenging gameplay. If it's just like Guild Wars II  with a huge but pretty empty world where there's never any real danger then it's just tedious. Same with leveling - Does every fight force you to know your class and pose a real risk of dying if you do it wrong, or is it just a repetitive face roll  grindfest?

 

  Takoo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/25/13
Posts: 104

11/07/13 12:51:49 PM#375
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Quirhid
ike Dark Souls are fun to be sure; but, there is the "right kind of difficulty" and the "wrong kind of difficulty". Many posters here want the wrong kind of difficulty. Games that have less than ideal UIs, limited or no documentation, no tutorial and filled with trivial inconveniences which the player is required to pay attention to.

It is the easiest way to make a game "hard", but it is also the worst way to do it.

The right way to make the game hard, is to make the content hard - challenge the player. Players should be provided with a good UI, well made tutorials and documentation. Make their tools the best they can be to tackle the content, but make that content challenging. Force the players to apply their knowledge and abilities and raise the bar ever so slightly when they advance. Give them new tools and teach them new tricks along the way to keep them interested.

 

+1 to this although I doubt any devs really seek to make games hard through bad UI or tutorial, those things are usually just bad design (or the game being so complex that it requires a convoluted UI and can't be summarized well in a tutorial - I think this only applies to strategy games though.) .

 

Things like having no fast travel or levelling slowly are not tedious if the game is designed as you describe. If there's constant danger of dying while running back to town and dying actually matters than it becomes part of the challenging gameplay. If it's just like Guild Wars II  with a huge but pretty empty world where there's never any real danger then it's just tedious. Same with leveling - Does every fight force you to know your class and pose a real risk of dying if you do it wrong, or is it just a repetitive face roll  grindfest?

 

Good luck getting the WoW crew to accept any game where you can get killed running around in open World.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1321

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

11/07/13 1:47:23 PM#376


Originally posted by Ashstomper

Originally posted by BloodyViking Agree with OP. I look back at Asheron's Call 1 and realize that it had so much that pretty much no current game has. And that was back in 1999/2000. I miss running around in a huge seamless world exploring. I miss the danger of dying out there in the wilds and having to run back to my corpse to recover my valuables. I miss the feeling of what we do as players having any impact on an ongoing storyline. I miss an evolving world where from month to month the landscape changes, cities disappear and appear. I miss twitch combat where your movement has an impact on wether your enemy hits you with his attacks and where you can effectively use terrain to your advantage. I miss random loot that feels relevant and broadscoped. I miss having my own cottage out there in the wilds where I can hang my trophies. I miss killing monsters for trophies that I can give to a collector of such instead of the stupid and inane "Kill XX mobs quests". I miss designing my own character with his own skills and attributes. I miss being able to choose my weapons from my own taste and not because someone said that "that class cant use XXX!" I miss researching spells on my own. I am -SO- tired of the cookiecutter corridor-world bullshit thrown at us as Grade AAA MMO games. And what I am the MOST tired of of is the young gamers of today which seems so INCREDIBLY entitled to everything. This and that MUST be made EASIER! Personaly, I am hoping for a new world war so we can weed out all the DNA trash sitting around in front of the consoles and their WoW-style games. Thats how disgusted I am at the state of the MMO world. You destroyed my games you dingholes!
^^^ Exactly this!

Yes, this is good. Last paragraph is the best.

P L A N E T S I D E 1 is up !! check PS1 forum for link to current installer.
Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Jjix

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 128

11/07/13 6:34:34 PM#377
Originally posted by sportsfan
Originally posted by picommander
Originally posted by snoocky
Agree to... i gave up on MMO's to.
But enjoying the hell out of Skyrim :)

^This. As long as we still have decent and ambicious single players the world isn't quite lost. Just for me and the MMO market.

Skyrim is even more of a dead end for long term play ... the moment you realise you enter a world of NPC's...

Who wants to show off his stamp collection or dress to ... a puppet ?

 

 

The thing about Skyrim is, you have to "make-pretend", in exactly the same way you did as a kid playing with action figures. The world, the npcs, the story, these things provide you with an outline and framework around which you develop your make-pretend fantasy. But the moment this action on the part of your own mind fails you, you suddenly wake up to the sensation of being in an utterly empty, lonely world filled with npcs, just as you described. It is your imagination, when it is working, that prevents this feeling from taking over. (I suspect that kid playing with action figures would have had a similar sensation of the meaninglessness of it all had his or her imagination failed too.)

That is the essence of "role-playing" in my mind, this process of make-believing an epic fantasy for yourself, and it is ever as dependent on your own mind and willingness to engage in this process as it is in concrete substance of the game before you. This is precisely why older games, like Morrowind, despite being graphically much more primitive were just as compelling, because our own minds and imagination filled in the blanks.

In the "old" days of MMORPGs, the magic for me came in large part from the fact that it felt like a collective "make-pretend", a collective role-playing adventure, which in a way was far more powerful than an individual one in the manner you get from playing Skyrim. This is a very rare experience however, at least for me, to have with modern mmorpgs, and I confess I am not really sure why . . . All I can say is that this quintessential dimension of bringing your own imagination to a game -- a process which is required to make a game like Skyrim work in my opinion -- seems terrifically hard to do with modern mmorpgs, whereas it seemed natural during the old school era.

  eHug

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/30/12
Posts: 207

11/08/13 6:38:43 AM#378

Just curious, but where is your newschool rpg lovers casualisation limit? For many oldschool players the new mmorpgs are too easy, too much on rails, don't offer enough choice and often lack immersion. Funny enough I heard the same from eg WoW fan when talking about the next step of casualisation: games like farmville.

In MMORPGs like farmville you don't need to worry about travelling or even porting. You don't need to worry about not being able to beat any of the content. No other player will be able to harm or grief you. You click a few thingies and get your reward. To me that's the next logical step in the casualisation process we saw ever since titles WoW changed the market into a casual market.

So, when will a game start to become boring for you? Is there a type of casual game where you feel completely underwhelmed? Or do you enjoy games like Farmville more then titles like WoW because they are more casual? I am not trying to troll, I am really interessted in finding out where your personal limits to casualisation lie.

  Adamantine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3309

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

11/08/13 8:54:41 AM#379
Originally posted by tristanryan

Im honestly tired. [...] Sorry for the rant.

You are not alone, I too kind of no longer find the motivation for MMOs.

Been there, done that, moved on.

Vanguard was a great MMO, but I lack the motivation to continue playing.

 

  User Deleted
11/08/13 3:55:31 PM#380
Originally posted by Adamantine
Originally posted by tristanryan

Im honestly tired. [...] Sorry for the rant.

You are not alone, I too kind of no longer find the motivation for MMOs.

Been there, done that, moved on.

Vanguard was a great MMO, but I lack the motivation to continue playing.

 

 

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