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Lord of the Rings Online

Lord of the Rings Online 

General Discussion  » Helm's Deep NDA lifted...

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74 posts found
  trancejeremy

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/30/08
Posts: 1217

 
OP  11/04/13 8:04:43 PM#1

And overall it doesn't sound good.

Consensus seems to be that the Big Battles is boring and repetitive, the class system revision is nothing short of a disaster, but OTOH, the landscape and quests are really well done.

R.I.P. City of Heroes and my 17 characters there

  taylormade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/04/13
Posts: 5

11/04/13 8:20:13 PM#2
Originally posted by trancejeremy

And overall it doesn't sound good.

Consensus seems to be that the Big Battles is boring and repetitive, the class system revision is nothing short of a disaster, but OTOH, the landscape and quests are really well done.

Actually it sounds good according to the lotro forums.  Most say the Big Battles are fun and challenging not sure where your getting your info.  The epic story and landscape have also been said are amazing.  Now to the class revision that is a mixed bag but that's something you can expect when you make this major of a change 6 years in.  I will hold judgement until I play in a few weeks.  

  Filbur

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/25/10
Posts: 69

11/04/13 8:26:15 PM#3
Depends on who you ask. I read a lot of positive things about the changes and the big battles. It's true that some people are not happy with the new direction and the classes that they played for over six years. But that was to be expected.
  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5511

11/04/13 10:45:19 PM#4

I'm curious how big battles will work out. It looks a lot like cooperatives skirmishes and those seem to be the least popular skirms. I can see a lot of people wanting to play in the forefront of the action and not as many in the support roles. Some of the support roles, like engineer, look like they require a bit of coordination. Hopefully that will work out well.

Mostly I care about the class revamp. I don't mind pruning the number of skills. I like the idea of increasing the pace of combat a lot. But if they screw up how my LM works I am not going to be a happy camper. The Minstrel changes ruined the class for me and that was one of my favorites (LM, Minstrel, and Hunter). I have one of every class (on both Nimrodel and Crickhollow) and I love them all. So please Turbine, don't screw this one up like you did with LIs, and dread/hope/radiance, and hobbies.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 535

11/05/13 4:45:54 AM#5
Originally posted by Filbur
Depends on who you ask. I read a lot of positive things about the changes and the big battles. It's true that some people are not happy with the new direction and the classes that they played for over six years. But that was to be expected.

My thoughts on the revamps.  The existing 6 yr old consumer base was content with classes more or less as they were.  There was no demand from the base for revamps that WB/Turbine was responding too.  That leads me to the conclusion that the revamps served one of two purposes.  Entice a completely new/different customer base into an almost 7 yr old game(good luck with that) or to lower dev overhead in content design/balance in prep for maintenance mode.

 

/shrugs, guess we'll see in a few weeks

EDIT:

As far as BBattles that's just skirmish 3.0 from what I can see, some will like some won't.

  Moodsor

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/16/06
Posts: 596

11/05/13 4:53:45 AM#6

Well I will throw in my input after having played the beta for a while.

The trait changes will be a love or hate kind of thing, theres alot of skills removed, some that people liked, some they didnt, I personally think they went a bit too far.

In regards to Big Battles, its Skirmishes 2.0 with a few gimmicks, its not something spectacular, and seeing as they want it to be the main endgame of HD, I think people are in for a rude awakening in regards to this, Turbine seems to with every expansion to forget that theres a max level, the journey from 85 to 95 is quality like always, with beautiful landscapes and nice story, however just like with previous expansions theres very little to do once you hit 95, and this time around theres not gonna be an instance cluster coming after launch.

Unfortunately for me, the price tag on this expansion is way too high.

  iridescence

Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 943

11/05/13 4:56:49 AM#7

*sigh*I like the slow pace of combat in LOTRO. I like being able to actually think about what skill to use rather than just mashing buttons.  I can't see this ending well, at least from my point of view. Why totally change things 6 years in? It's not like they're going to attract a bunch of new players with it, just piss off those of us who like the class we've been playing for years the way it is.

 

What they really should have fixed were the derp combat animations and character models which mar an otherwise pretty nice looking game.

 

  Abimor

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/09/05
Posts: 256

11/05/13 4:57:21 AM#8
Originally posted by Moodsor

Well I will throw in my input after having played the beta for a while.

The trait changes will be a love or hate kind of thing, theres alot of skills removed, some that people liked, some they didnt, I personally think they went a bit too far.

In regards to Big Battles, its Skirmishes 2.0 with a few gimmicks, its not something spectacular, and seeing as they want it to be the main endgame of HD, I think people are in for a rude awakening in regards to this, Turbine seems to with every expansion to forget that theres a max level, the journey from 85 to 95 is quality like always, with beautiful landscapes and nice story, however just like with previous expansions theres very little to do once you hit 95, and this time around theres not gonna be an instance cluster coming after launch.

Unfortunately for me, the price tag on this expansion is way too high.

I agree with you 100% I dont like the class changes and  I am tired of the severe tinkeritus the lotro devs have they change things for no reason as far as the big battles go it was just meh for me. I dont think I will be buying this expansion a sad time for me indeed.

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8527

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

11/06/13 4:22:53 AM#9

How would you react, if they totally changed the class you just loved to play for over six years ?

 

people dont like big changes.

 

And if these changes are meant to pull  new players to a six year old (but still ver beautifull) game, i do not think changing it to look more a kin to other games like WoW is the right way to go..   

 

Giving players less skills to use in battle, does not make for a better combat system, and in the end having less options dumbs down a game, and this is the opposite direction that people that play these deep and old mmos prefer..

 

in general, most people that stick with lotro are 30+ and they prefer deep and tactical combat instead of more flashy stuff.

 

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  Lithuanian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/06
Posts: 174

11/06/13 4:59:25 AM#10

Very, very mixed feelings.

Class revamp: well, lots of skills does not mean lots of fun. Sometimes less is more.

Trees: the problem number one. As from forum, player is penalized for using more than 1 tree (i.e. 1 point for first tree, 2 points fors second/third).

Big Battles: I am afraid, game may go in the same awkward direction like Angmar went: forced fellowships whenever you go. And I do not believe in "players can solo it", haven't seen instance that 1 player could beat solo. Conception about commanding your own little army - it frightens me. Sometimes it is hard to fight solo, and now I should be able to fight  and/or to care about each given soldier.  We have such pain in "escort lame NPC" missions, when you have to nurse NPC.

However, they are revamping crafting: removing tin, which was a headache. Tin would be purchasable from vendors (think about coal). It allows money sink and may help new players.

Judging from forums, many players are dissatisfied with revamp, especially Ministrels (as far as I understood). I still am not sure what will happen to my poor Champion. Will he become more powerfull, say, AoE machine?

In short: I am a bit afraid of the changes. Skill trees are tricky thing and the only hope is that Turbine found some genius-worth solution...

http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com

  Lord.Bachus

Elite Member

Joined: 5/14/07
Posts: 8527

I believe in life before death... So dont forget to enjoy it while you still can.

11/06/13 5:14:44 AM#11
Originally posted by Lithuanian

Very, very mixed feelings.

Class revamp: well, lots of skills does not mean lots of fun. Sometimes less is more.

Trees: the problem number one. As from forum, player is penalized for using more than 1 tree (i.e. 1 point for first tree, 2 points fors second/third).

Big Battles: I am afraid, game may go in the same awkward direction like Angmar went: forced fellowships whenever you go. And I do not believe in "players can solo it", haven't seen instance that 1 player could beat solo. Conception about commanding your own little army - it frightens me. Sometimes it is hard to fight solo, and now I should be able to fight  and/or to care about each given soldier.  We have such pain in "escort lame NPC" missions, when you have to nurse NPC.

However, they are revamping crafting: removing tin, which was a headache. Tin would be purchasable from vendors (think about coal). It allows money sink and may help new players.

Judging from forums, many players are dissatisfied with revamp, especially Ministrels (as far as I understood). I still am not sure what will happen to my poor Champion. Will he become more powerfull, say, AoE machine?

In short: I am a bit afraid of the changes. Skill trees are tricky thing and the only hope is that Turbine found some genius-worth solution...

Having minstrells switch to alts would even mean les healiers available.....  After the last great updates, minstrells became finally a class that could solo well, and since then there have been enough healers around...  However with the update captains can finally get to the level of true healers..

 

we just need to wayt 2 months and not review the name on balance issues but on gameplay and fun..

 

as some say, less skills is not allways less depth, but old timers like me started looking again for games with dozens of skills, realising with games like neverwinter and  gw2 that fewer skils not allways means a deeper tactical combat system.  And thats why i returned to ganes like lotro (espescially)  and eq2 and wow.  Its fun to have many choices at your hands andtrying to figure out uses for all the skills you have.  Having just 15 skilss on a max level class and a bngle best dps rotation killsmy gameplay..

 

i prefer switching rolesmid combat thats where lotro allbas shined... If they totally killgdthe switching on the fly, i might beone sad panda.

Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations)
Currently playing : The Elder Scrolls Online and Wildstar

  ReaperUk

Elite Member

Joined: 9/20/06
Posts: 549

11/06/13 5:33:50 AM#12

I've been playing various mmo's having taken a break from Lotro since March last year. When I came back in September, I decided to continue levelling my Minstrel, which had just started Moria when I was last playing the game. The first thing that struck me was the amount of skill bloat compared with most of the other games I'd been playing. The trend over the past few years has definitely been for a much more limited skill set and I prefer it that way.

My Minstrel had a huge number of superfluous skills, filling row upon row of skill bars. My solution was to remove every single icon on my skill bars and to start again from scratch, equipping only the skills I felt were truly useful. That meant dumping most of the skills with very long cool downs for a start and then others that were poor relations of more powerful skills that made them redundant. There are still far more skills on my UI than I'd like but the game is more enjoyable for me.

So, when I heard they were reducing the number of skills in HD, I was expecting a major revamp making the UI more like GW2 etc. However, when I was fortunate to get a beta invite a few weeks ago, I was surprised to find very little difference to the skill set I had selected for myself in the live game. Microsoft had clearly come to similar conclusions to myself as to which were the important skills and which were not but hadn't gone as far as I was hoping to prune them further. The end result though, is that playing an auto levelled lvl 91 Minstrel on Bullroarer isn't much different to the lvl 64 one I'm playing in the live game. I've got no problem adapting to the changes there.

The new trait trees are also a lot more like the ones more recent games have been using for a while. It works perfectly OK for me. You no longer need to visit a bard to make additions when levelling and you can more easily switch trait sets out of combat.

Big Battles are a bit meh. They're really just glorified skirmishes. I was hoping to see large scale battles with dozens of players fighting together such as I've experienced in other games such as GW2 and Defiance but that isn't so. I should have realised the ageing LotRO engine couldn't handle that, so the BIG simply means a big scenario.

Now that the NDA has been lifted, you're bound to come across some very vociferous haters on these forum. They made up a very loud minority on the beta forums, predicting doom and gloom for the game, threatening their whole Kin would be leaving the game if the update went live etc. I believe the majority though will be be more lijke myself, liking some things a lot and others not so much but quietly getting on with exploring the new areas and features.

All in all I give Helms Deep a thumbs up.

  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1951

11/06/13 9:34:06 AM#13
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

However with the update captains can finally get to the level of true healers..

Lol, the irony :)  (I mean, you weren't serious, right?)

As I wrote before regarding captains:

"That's the beauty of cappy, you don't need a button to switch, you can (until HD) do anything at the same time without a switch. That is what they will take away. Now you can buff your fellows, jump into the fight, help the tank and pull off the mobs from the idiot overaggroing dps, drop some heals, do some damage, cleanse the fears, rez the afforementioned idiot dps (in most cases a hunter :) ), drop some heals again and help finishing off the mobs. Without any switch. That's what captains do. That versatility will be reduced into three dumb lines."

 

Or a much better post from a more experienced cappy: http://lotrocommunity.com/forum/topic/2306-so-helms-deep-nda-has-been-lifted-but/page-2#entry58489  "I'm sorry, it is not going to be a Captain once this fiasco goes live.  It will be a completely new class that they will still slap the Captain name on."

 

  BMBender

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 535

11/06/13 10:25:28 AM#14
Originally posted by reaperuk

I've been playing various mmo's having taken a break from Lotro since March last year. When I came back in September, I decided to continue levelling my Minstrel, which had just started Moria when I was last playing the game. The first thing that struck me was the amount of skill bloat compared with most of the other games I'd been playing. The trend over the past few years has definitely been for a much more limited skill set and I prefer it that way.

My Minstrel had a huge number of superfluous skills, filling row upon row of skill bars. My solution was to remove every single icon on my skill bars and to start again from scratch, equipping only the skills I felt were truly useful. That meant dumping most of the skills with very long cool downs for a start and then others that were poor relations of more powerful skills that made them redundant. There are still far more skills on my UI than I'd like but the game is more enjoyable for me.

So, when I heard they were reducing the number of skills in HD, I was expecting a major revamp making the UI more like GW2 etc. However, when I was fortunate to get a beta invite a few weeks ago, I was surprised to find very little difference to the skill set I had selected for myself in the live game. Microsoft had clearly come to similar conclusions to myself as to which were the important skills and which were not but hadn't gone as far as I was hoping to prune them further. The end result though, is that playing an auto levelled lvl 91 Minstrel on Bullroarer isn't much different to the lvl 64 one I'm playing in the live game. I've got no problem adapting to the changes there.

The new trait trees are also a lot more like the ones more recent games have been using for a while. It works perfectly OK for me. You no longer need to visit a bard to make additions when levelling and you can more easily switch trait sets out of combat.

Big Battles are a bit meh. They're really just glorified skirmishes. I was hoping to see large scale battles with dozens of players fighting together such as I've experienced in other games such as GW2 and Defiance but that isn't so. I should have realised the ageing LotRO engine couldn't handle that, so the BIG simply means a big scenario.

Now that the NDA has been lifted, you're bound to come across some very vociferous haters on these forum. They made up a very loud minority on the beta forums, predicting doom and gloom for the game, threatening their whole Kin would be leaving the game if the update went live etc. I believe the majority though will be be more lijke myself, liking some things a lot and others not so much but quietly getting on with exploring the new areas and features.

All in all I give Helms Deep a thumbs up.

One thing to keep in mind when talking about minority / majority in a satisfied market IP like the Tolkien works is that there are not a hole hell of a lot waiting in the wings of the mmo verse, ready to jump in the moment some perceived skill bloat disappears.  What is happening is that a portion ( I have no idea how large or small) has decided to leave the game.  Before it was the raid community, then it was the pure groupers, now the tactical skill crowd.  How many demographics does this game have left compared to what it had 3 yrs ago? 

People who decide to leave now are not going to be replaced by a great wave of unknown Tolkien fans that were just waiting around for some reason it's a 7yr old game after all.

 

 

EDIT:

SWG tried changing core elements of it's game in an attempt to draw in a mainstream audience.  That went well.

  Lithuanian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/17/06
Posts: 174

11/06/13 11:04:56 AM#15

If I can ask (since NDA is lifted) - then how does these trees work? Today's mechanic is very simple: you reach level, buy skill, go to bard and here you go.

How will this work in HD (since I played only Istaria which has no skill trees)? Like mounted combat horse's tree - you have to buy skill A and advance it, then buy skill B, advance it...? Or  - take any skill, drag to the tree and here you go?

Side notes: lotrocommunity - I do not think they can be credited as reliable source. Their negative attitude towards Turbine and almost all changes as well as their hate towards Sapience are known.

http://www.mmoblogg.wordpress.com

  Smintar

Novice Member

Joined: 7/12/06
Posts: 173

11/06/13 11:27:47 AM#16
I bought the HD expansion, I came back a few weeks ago and started to enjoy this one again. Its my hope that they don't dumb down this one as Blizzard has WOW and others.The clan I am with and have been with is still there but not as many now, So I am certainly hoping for the best if not then I will put it down permanently as I have with the others and wait for Elder Scrolls
  Po_gg

Elite Member

Joined: 5/12/10
Posts: 1951

11/06/13 11:38:06 AM#17
Originally posted by Lithuanian

Side notes: lotrocommunity - I do not think they can be credited as reliable source. Their negative attitude towards Turbine and almost all changes as well as their hate towards Sapience are known.

It started from the Codies forum which ceased to exist after the Turbine take-over, so it has many many great and reliable players gathered. negative attitude towards Turbine - I'd rather say objective and stated, not negative.

their hate towards Sapience -  well... it's also a bit harsh statement, but somewhat precise indeed :)

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5511

11/06/13 2:18:07 PM#18

Yeah, the lotrocommunity site can get pretty toxic. Aside from the vitriol some of the posters have some great points. It's also pretty easy to tell who is just there to spew and who has something useful to say. I don't go there anymore, but I wouldn't disregard their info just because of that site. I just take it with a grain of salt, just like Turbine marketing, or the Turbine Defense Squad on the official forums. If anything it's the fanboys there that have done the most damage to the game over time. Turbine could stand a lesson from Koster's anti-fanboy blog post.

If Turbine does to my LM what I think they've done to my cappy I'm not going to be a happy camper. I love my cappy and all, but my LMs are my favorite characters, then a tie between my hunters and minstrels. Turbine has already totally screwed my minstrel up once. It can't get much worse than it is for that class.

So Big Battles are just Big Skirmishes. They sort of looked like it from the screenies and vids. I'm ambivalent. I like skirms, but they're not reason for me to play. The reward system is insanely grindy for the amount of skirm content available.

They still overcharge and under-deliver with their xpacs, and their game is way too store happy. Cut down on the store buttons and sell stuff like EQ2 does. I squarely blame the Paiz couple for polluting the game with over-monetization as it stands today. I wish they were unmodestly ushered from our industry by their peers.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  nerovipus32

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/15/11
Posts: 2698

11/06/13 2:24:41 PM#19
Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

How would you react, if they totally changed the class you just loved to play for over six years ?

 

people dont like big changes.

 

And if these changes are meant to pull  new players to a six year old (but still ver beautifull) game, i do not think changing it to look more a kin to other games like WoW is the right way to go..   

 

Giving players less skills to use in battle, does not make for a better combat system, and in the end having less options dumbs down a game, and this is the opposite direction that people that play these deep and old mmos prefer..

 

in general, most people that stick with lotro are 30+ and they prefer deep and tactical combat instead of more flashy stuff.

 

After 6 years of playing the same game maybe it's time for you to move on. just a suggestion.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 16945

11/06/13 2:48:55 PM#20
Originally posted by trancejeremy

And overall it doesn't sound good.

Consensus seems to be that the Big Battles is boring and repetitive, the class system revision is nothing short of a disaster, but OTOH, the landscape and quests are really well done.

I just went to the forums and find  nothing under the "helm's deep" or general headings.

perhaps you could point us to the disaster thread?

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