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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Leveling is underrated

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59 posts found
  Skooma2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/05/08
Posts: 685

11/03/13 5:34:13 PM#21
Originally posted by immodium
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Dogblaster
I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny :)

Why is that?  Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?

Yes, you do "level up" in real life.  Infant --> child ---> teen-ager ---> adult

Yes, you do "level up" in real life.  Newspaper boy ---> part-timer in a store ---->  full-time job

Yes, you do "level up" in real life.   Kindergarten ---> elementary school ---> high school ---> college ----> post-graduate school

Yes, people get better at what they do.  You wouldn't like it if your doctor or lawyer only had whatever skills they had when they graduated med/law school.  That's true for ANY profession that pays  more than minimum wage.

But whats your level? Your age?

56.  With 2 kids graduated from college and working full-time jobs, I'm approaching end-game with a smile on my face.

Hedonismbot: Your latest performance was as delectable as dipping my bottom over and over into a bath of the silkiest oils and creams.

  Ender4

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

11/03/13 5:39:21 PM#22

Tangible progression that isn't just reliant on items is important in these games. It doesn't have to strictly be levels but it has to be something. I also like to be able to visit old content and see just how much I've progressed. GW2's system is a poor one imo though I'm fine with choosing to downlevel to do old content, it should never happen automatically.

  darkedone02

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/17/06
Posts: 547

11/03/13 5:41:03 PM#23

welcome to the FPS version of the progression system, unlock everything and buy everything...

In CoD, you level up to unlock weapons, sometimes you got to get more kills to unlock extra parts (modern warfare 2 and 3?), or buy them via cash each and every round (black ops).

In BF4, you unlock weapons from points you contributed on killing, doing objectives, and so on, sometimes achievements-wise, and gain more points on that current weapon via more kills.

What's so special between FPS's and RPG's in a mmo scale? FPS people continue to play because they love the PvP aspect and won't get bored till they feel that repetitive on that particular gamemodes... then they move on to another gamemode or play something else, trying to not get so burned out on it.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

11/03/13 5:41:28 PM#24
Originally posted by Nevulus

There always has to be a quantifiable way to progress, therefore there will always be levels in some sort. Period.

I wouldn't have put a "period" there personally.  I probably wouldn't have used to word "always" either.  

Quantifiable progress is definitely appealing, but it is far from being the be-all and end-all of the genre.

 

  MMOredfalcon

Hard Core Member

Joined: 9/18/13
Posts: 133

11/03/13 5:43:03 PM#25
Originally posted by wutae

what if they made a game, that leveling is THE purpose of the game? and for the shake of discussion and having it easier to understand and accept the concept. what if there is NO leveling in the game?

But everything you do gives you some kind of bonus, and the more you do it the more powerful you become but not because u gain extra stats, but because u gain more "powers".

Do you like this concept? Because this is how the games will work in the future. Already the first mmo with this system is in development, and i believe more will follow.

I will not say which game because i dont want to be called a fanboi, because i am not. i just see potential in this system

The first game MMO with this system? Kinda sounds like you are talkin about Ultima Online...which also had this concept...

  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1640

11/03/13 5:57:21 PM#26

I'm not against leveling, but having a similar progression path in all games is not fun. Prolonging the leveling process doesn't make leveling any more fun either. Take Asheron's Call for example. Great game, pretty open ended and non-linear. Even the levels were mostly guide markers, but the leveling process was extremely long (in the earlier years). After awhile, there just didn't seem to be enough to look forward to, so leveling felt more like a chore than a journey to an obtainable goal. Actually, if the leveling process had actually been fun, there wouldn't have been nearly as many unattended leveling macro bots, as they plagued many areas and generally ruined the experience for many others. Which is one of the reasons why I left, and many others as well.

I enjoyed the leveling process in vanilla WoW, it was just long enough and had some decent challenges littered about to keep things fun without it being too easy or too grindy.

GW2 PvE leveling is atrocious, except for the noob areas. The events happen at a nice pace in the 1-15 zones, but there isn't the good pacing in the higher level zones. That makes those zones feel more dead than alive. I typically level any of my toons via WvW. Leveling to 80 feels mostly unnecessary as well, considering any level past 40 seems more like a minor upgrade than an actual boost in power. GW2 is about 40 levels too long.

FF XIV: ARR follows a similar path as WoW and GW2, but I found it to be terribly boring without the story quests to help along. FATE grinding is boring as hell and made me leave the game. There isn't enough traditional themepark quests to help augment the grindy aspect of FATEs.

Leveling in and of itself isn't bad or good, but rather how it's designed. I am really looking forward to see how well EQN plays out. No actual levels, but Tier systems for individual classes and the ability to mix and match class abilities to create your own multiclass combinations sounds very exciting. With a more flat approach, it should be easier for anyone to play with anyone else and help make the game more potentially social. Power won't be attached to a level number.

TL;DR: Leveling isn't bad, but the same approach to all games is. Furthermore, unless there is inherent fun built into a leveling system, it becomes more of a chore than a delivery method of power and content.

  funyahns

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/02/12
Posts: 316

11/03/13 5:59:39 PM#27

 I actually enjoyed leveling up in games like Everquest.  If you are going to have levels, and build zones in order to level through it might as well take time and effort to get through them.  Whats the point of building low levels in games like ToR when people just blow through them in a couple of days?  How many low level worlds did they make that could have just been skipped over?

 

I see two choices with levels.  Either make it a trip that takes a long time and requires a bit of effort.  Or just don't have levels and make your zones end game progression. Imagine if  Tor again had used all those worlds for different end game zones instead of mid game filler that people rushed over without looking at.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1036

11/03/13 6:55:54 PM#28
Originally posted by funyahns

 I actually enjoyed leveling up in games like Everquest.  If you are going to have levels, and build zones in order to level through it might as well take time and effort to get through them.  Whats the point of building low levels in games like ToR when people just blow through them in a couple of days?  How many low level worlds did they make that could have just been skipped over?

 

I see two choices with levels.  Either make it a trip that takes a long time and requires a bit of effort.  Or just don't have levels and make your zones end game progression. Imagine if  Tor again had used all those worlds for different end game zones instead of mid game filler that people rushed over without looking at.

Levels kind of make content stupid to me.  Why is the giant fanged beast now hitting your cloth armored character like its tickling them because your guy has reach magical platforms of progressions.   When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time.  That makes the world more livelier.  

 

You design worlds where say like the Burning Crusades Outland.  Due to level progression these places become trivial once you out level it.  So all that time and effort placed into these places and the mystique of fighting giant demon is lost because your suddenly too powerful to be touched.   To me I would make the Outlands somewhere if you quested or visited it would always be dangerous.

 

To me that's the difference between focusing on the world vs. focusing on leveling.  The world and lore seem to always come at expensive of leveling progression because its easier to just make quest hubs to hand hold leveling.

  Ender4

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

11/03/13 7:08:48 PM#29

That isn't a function of the levels though, it is a function of how much a game gives you per level. WoW tends to make levels extremely important. I should be able to walk into a newbie zone and blow it up like it is nothing at max level, that is progression. A black belt can beat unlimited numbers of white belts etc. The problem with most games is they put too much power in levels. A level 10 in WoW can wipe the floor with endless lvl 1 mobs, that is a bit different.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1365

11/03/13 9:21:10 PM#30
Originally posted by xDrac

I mean honestly, so many people whine that there is no progression and nothing to do once you hit the cap. Having someone level is a really easy way of keeping people occupied and give them a goal to achieve. Because mostly, at least for me, after I reach the max. level and there isn't a whole lot of content... I just end up quitting. But if there is yet another level to reach... you will keep going. Know what I mean? Lets take a few examples, shall we?

 

I agree but as to why games are designed this way now it comes down to a combination of money and the way a lot of players are these days. Most of the new generation of players who grew up with things like Diablo and WoW  instead of real pen and paper RPGs don't look at these games as an adventure or a journey. It is more like a part time job to them. This is why they "min-max" because when you look at leveling like a job you want to do it the fastest and most efficient way possible to get your pay (skills/loot/bragging rights). 

Blizzard figured out how to exploit this and other companies have followed them. Rather than having to make tons of new zones and content for a game in which there is no or a very high  level cap which is obviously expensive or have players spend months or years leveling in the same zones, which most people would get bored with,  If you have an easily achieved  level cap followed by prolonged "endgame" these min-max players will grind the same dungeon over and over just to get one piece of gear. Then when you finally do release an expansion, all their "work" becomes useless and the whole process starts again so it's much more cost effective for the company. 

 

I'd love games to come out with proper RPG slow progression and no level cap but the trend in themepark design seems to be going away from that to even faster leveling experiences. One reason why I don't really get excited about new themepark games anymore, no matter what else they bring to the table they all seem to share this design philosophy.

 

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5698

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

11/03/13 9:29:26 PM#31
Originally posted by Quizzical
Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer.  Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.

exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.

  Fangrim

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/12
Posts: 479

11/03/13 9:36:16 PM#32
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Quizzical
Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer.  Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.

exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.

If you mean dynamic like in GW2 or FF14,no thanks.Running around solo in a herd is not my idea of fun.I would rather  have the so called 'generic' quests than 'dynamic' that are constantly on a loop every 5 minutes.I think 'dynamic' is less dynamic than generic in MMORPG so far.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1365

11/03/13 9:45:26 PM#33
Originally posted by rojo6934
 

exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.

 

I'm hoping Skyrim hinted at the future of this type of MMO with its procedurally generated quests or you could look at a game like Dwarf Fortress if you prefer. This is potentially a way for MMOs to make infinite amounts of new content without having to pay thousands of human developers to continually churn it out. Of course computer AI needs to get a lot better to make these form of quests any more engaging than the "kill 10 rats" variety but it's the future I think. 

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17382

11/03/13 9:47:44 PM#34
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Dogblaster
I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny :)

Why is that?  Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do? 

uh, yeah you do.

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5939

11/03/13 9:57:22 PM#35
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Skooma2
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Dogblaster
I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny :)

Why is that?  Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?

Yes, you do "level up" in real life.  Infant --> child ---> teen-ager ---> adult

Yes, you do "level up" in real life.  Newspaper boy ---> part-timer in a store ---->  full-time job

Yes, you do "level up" in real life.   Kindergarten ---> elementary school ---> high school ---> college ----> post-graduate school

Yes, people get better at what they do.  You wouldn't like it if your doctor or lawyer only had whatever skills they had when they graduated med/law school.  That's true for ANY profession that pays  more than minimum wage.

If I was going to see a Dr, I'd rather he be on a skill based system than a level based one. any idiot can get to lvl cap :P

Life is more complicated than a one dimensional mmo game. Progression in life has multiple measures. "Levels" have many attributes and aren't so clearly compartmentalized as mmo levels are. They're still sort of there though. Life is also skill based and the levels people attain are often dependent or influence by their skills.

Here's one small example. When I was in the US Navy as a nuclear machinist mate (my class), I had to take an exam to level up, but there were also several other factors I had to meet in order to advance. The test was a measure of skill. There were also a string of personal evaluations, recommendations, and competency checks. I did level, the first time up, then I mustered out and started leveling in other areas of my life, or continued leveling those already started.

Curse you AquaScum!

  Ender4

Novice Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2096

11/03/13 10:06:44 PM#36


Originally posted by Torvaldr

Originally posted by DamonVile

Originally posted by Skooma2

Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal

Originally posted by Dogblaster I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny :)
Why is that?  Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do?
Yes, you do "level up" in real life.  Infant --> child ---> teen-ager ---> adult Yes, you do "level up" in real life.  Newspaper boy ---> part-timer in a store ---->  full-time job Yes, you do "level up" in real life.   Kindergarten ---> elementary school ---> high school ---> college ----> post-graduate school Yes, people get better at what they do.  You wouldn't like it if your doctor or lawyer only had whatever skills they had when they graduated med/law school.  That's true for ANY profession that pays  more than minimum wage.
If I was going to see a Dr, I'd rather he be on a skill based system than a level based one. any idiot can get to lvl cap :P
Life is more complicated than a one dimensional mmo game. Progression in life has multiple measures. "Levels" have many attributes and aren't so clearly compartmentalized as mmo levels are. They're still sort of there though. Life is also skill based and the levels people attain are often dependent or influence by their skills.

Here's one small example. When I was in the US Navy as a nuclear machinist mate (my class), I had to take an exam to level up, but there were also several other factors I had to meet in order to advance. The test was a measure of skill. There were also a string of personal evaluations, recommendations, and competency checks. I did level, the first time up, then I mustered out and started leveling in other areas of my life, or continued leveling those already started.


Life is more complicated than a video game, this is a surprise? I mean really?

  rojoArcueid

Elite Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5698

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

11/03/13 10:13:29 PM#37
Originally posted by Fangrim
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Quizzical
Massive amounts of grinding to level doesn't make most players play the game longer.  Rather, it makes most potential players quit quickly or never pick up the game in the first place.

exactly. This is why i keep saying that the generic questing needs to die in mmos and have more dynamic leveling content that doesnt repeat, keeps progressing. It would progress slowly but not repeating over and over the same things. This way people dont get bored of the same static quest grinds with every single character doing the same. And on top of that, the slow pace would give the devs enough time to keep putting content to keep it going.

If you mean dynamic like in GW2 or FF14,no thanks.Running around solo in a herd is not my idea of fun.I would rather  have the so called 'generic' quests than 'dynamic' that are constantly on a loop every 5 minutes.I think 'dynamic' is less dynamic than generic in MMORPG so far.

i didnt mention those 2 games but yes. Take those ideas and make them bigger and better. The only legit way to stay long term in an mmo anymore is that way. Specially if they want us to keep paying them to put out content. 1-2 years doing the same things every day over and over while the devs sit on their lawrels just releasing hotfixes is not my idea of paying for content. If we have to wait that long at least we should have enough dynamic content to tolerate the process with the less repetition possible, no matter how slow the process is.

  Deivos

Novice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

11/03/13 10:17:40 PM#38
Originally posted by Sovrath
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
Originally posted by Dogblaster
I enjoy leveling in mmorpg. One of the most important aspect of rpg I would say. Those ideas about having no leveling, etc. are rather funny :)

Why is that?  Do you really level up in real life or progressively get better at what you do? 

uh, yeah you do.

Think his comment was a bit more subtle. Meaning he was giving the alternative of not using levels, but skills that progress individually on practice.

 

Reason being he also stated this after in another post.

"When you have progression based on usage and it's shallower you can have places on planets that are always dangerous to even players who've been playing for a long time."

 

It's kinda vaguely described, but it is the distinction that characters aren't becoming globally tougher as they gain experience, but rather that they are learning the specialties in which they are training, and becoming more proficient with that.

 

It's still a form of leveling, really, but it's the notion that it feels more 'natural', as you are correlating it to practicing in a given academic, work, or experience field (with or without potential crossover to other fields).

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Rhinotones

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/21/13
Posts: 201

Respect people who speak their mind factually and intelligently, and please, never put anyone down.

11/03/13 11:12:02 PM#39

A questions for the OP.

1. How would you control players levelling?

You need to keep in mind that players level at different speeds. A hardcore player investing 6+ hours/day will level faster than someone playing 2 hours/day. It won't take long at all before you start seeing a chasm being formed between these two groups and therefore an imbalance in their strengths. If there's no cap or wall in place to control players levelling, never allowing others to catch up, all but the top players would probably quit as they can't compete.

It's inbuilt into us humans to have the same opportunities that ALL other players have, especially in a MMO environment where we step out of reality and into our fantasy characters. For this reason, I could not see a game like this working. Even for the hardcore player, it would surely have to feel like being a mouse on a treadmill that never stops. People like to see obtainable goals.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1365

11/03/13 11:32:51 PM#40
Originally posted by Rhinotones

A questions for the OP.

1. How would you control players levelling?

You need to keep in mind that players level at different speeds. A hardcore player investing 6+ hours/day will level faster than someone playing 2 hours/day. It won't take long at all before you start seeing a chasm being formed between these two groups and therefore an imbalance in their strengths. If there's no cap or wall in place to control players levelling, never allowing others to catch up, all but the top players would probably quit as they can't compete.

 

See, this right here, is exactly the attitude in game design I fundamentally disagree with . Unless you're talking about a heavily PvP based game there's no reason why the casual and hardcore players have to compete with each other (even PvP can be balanced in such a way that a group of low levels can take out a smaller group of high levels).  What you're talking about is like "gaming communism": Give everyone the same rewards regardless of the effort they're willing or able to put into the game. It leads to games where everyone is the same and few people really satisfied in the long term.

A lot of people want goals to aspire to that are hard for them to reach and then, when and if  they reach, those goals to feel a bit special and distinct from the crowd .It's a cool feeling to see the person who has been playing the game much longer than you and think "maybe someday I can have that." thinking "I will have that in a week of playing with very little effort..." is much less cool and interesting.

I guess the bottom line is that I believe that games are about having fun and doing the best you can within the time amd ability constraints you have. Not worrying about what some other person has, just because they've been playing longer or have more time or can click faster or whatever. Games aren't that different from the rest of life, you should get out of them what you put into them.

 

 

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