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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Is MMORPG longevity a myth?

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91 posts found
  Nadia

Elite Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11486

10/31/13 9:16:04 AM#61
Originally posted by Burntvet

Never played lineage, but most of its players are in Asia, so can not speak as well to that market. Plus it did have a sequel.

Lineage had a sequel but the sequel never did as well as the original

 

Lineage is still a sub game and the strongest breadwinner for Ncsoft, 15 years later

http://massively.joystiq.com/2013/08/14/ncsoft-sales-are-up-income-is-down/

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/31/13 9:19:40 AM#62
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Burntvet
And since the WoW phenomenon is almost certainly not to be repeated, ever, it is its own special case, now isn't it?

And the same could be said for EVE, couldn't it?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to discount WoW for being 'too unique', you're going to have to discount...every....other title, too.

Ummm... nope.

With EvE, you had a small developer build a small product in a market space with no competition (space PvP sandbox with strong crafting economics) slowly build up their game over time, by gradually improving the game, reducing bugs, and build in more of the things existing players wanted.  That could, should, and mostly likely will happen again, if the moron MMO executives running the companies stop chasing "the next WoW".

WoW became something that transcended the traditional MMORPG market and became a social phenomenon, and brought in millions of non-gamers, because of not only what it was, but also the time it happened. In so doing, it became 20x as big as any MMORPG that came before it, and that is something that would be virtually impossible to repeat.

 

So, no... you are comparing apples to hand grenades and asking why one does not taste good.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/31/13 9:24:33 AM#63
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Burntvet
And since the WoW phenomenon is almost certainly not to be repeated, ever, it is its own special case, now isn't it?

And the same could be said for EVE, couldn't it?

You can't have your cake and eat it too. If you're going to discount WoW for being 'too unique', you're going to have to discount...every....other title, too.

Ummm... nope.

With EvE, you had a small developer build a small product in a market space with no competition (space PvP sandbox with strong crafting economics) slowly build up their game over time, by gradually improving the game, reducing bugs, and build in more of the things existing players wanted.  That could, should, and mostly likely will happen again, if the moron MMO executives running the companies stop chasing "the next WoW".

WoW became something that transcended the traditional MMORPG market and became a social phenomenon, and brought in millions of non-gamers, because of not only what it was, but also the time it happened. In so doing, it became 20x as big as any MMORPG that came before it, and that is something that would be virtually impossible to repeat.

 

So, no... you are comparing apples to hand grenades and asking why one does not taste good.

They're both mmorpg titles, so your rule (if it's a rule at all) needs to apply to both of these, and every other.

Since we've been pointing out a number of exceptions, and you're backpedaling quite fiercely, perhaps it was too generalized and too flawed?

,

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Jaedor

Elite Member

Joined: 8/17/09
Posts: 899

10/31/13 9:30:05 AM#64


Originally posted by Ender4
Rift? really? That is one of the 5 or so worst MMORPG to be released in the past 5 years. How on earth did that one keep your attention.


Dimensions!

  Phaserlight

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/18/04
Posts: 707

Do you want to improve the world? I don't think it can be done. -Lao Tzu

10/31/13 9:30:33 AM#65
Originally posted by Burntvet
 small product in a market space with no competition (space PvP sandbox with strong crafting economics)

I discovered Vendetta Online after noticing an advertisement for Eve in a PC gaming magazine in the basement of my student research library, then running a search for space games in Altavista or Webcrawler or something and stumbling on a fan site by one "Roguelazer"... been a part of that community since June 2003, continuously subscribed since November 2004.  True story.

"To be what you are not, experience what you are not." -Saint John of the Cross
Authored 110 missions in Vendetta Online
Check it out on Steam

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5244

10/31/13 9:33:54 AM#66
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by Scot
Another poll to show how the content locusts are right about what MMOs should be like, another fail on their part.



What, if anything, does my post have to do with content locusts? It's about perception. Do MMORPGs have a high retention rate than other types of games, and do they have a longer average play time than other types of games, or is this just a perception on the part of the people who want things to be that way?

If that was not your intention sorry, but we do get polls like that on a regular basis. Yes they do have a higher retention etc, but not anywhere near as long as they had. Still they beat solo games hands down in that regard, I would say though that the multiplayer aspect of many solo games can hold people for a long time as well.

Perhaps in a perfect world we could have a game which was both a solo game and had a MMO as multiplayer attached. You can but dream.

 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/31/13 9:35:55 AM#67
[mod edit]

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  xeniar

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/09/06
Posts: 811

10/31/13 9:36:03 AM#68

I voted no.

But with the current style off MMO's yes its a myth. They will have to become more then just a game for them to hold people for a long time. wich means they need to revert back to what they where instead of what they have become now.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3695

10/31/13 9:36:51 AM#69
Originally posted by Ender4

I played MUDs before MMORPG so maybe that makes me the oddball.

You're not the oddball.  Back in the day, I played a couple of social MU*s for many years, one I played for 16 years straight, and I mean straight, no significant  breaks of more than a couple of days between logging on.  I'm all for longevity but it has to be earned.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3695

10/31/13 9:39:23 AM#70
Originally posted by maplestone
If we had a company handed over a chart of how long accounts remained open, would we need any more information other than the raw retention rates to answer this question?

Yes, just because an account is open doesn't mean the person is  still playing.  What about people with lifetime accounts?  What if they haven't played in years?  There are people who still pay for accounts even though they never play.  We only need to track accounts that are actively played, say, that have been logged into in the past week.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/31/13 9:45:03 AM#71
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by maplestone
If we had a company handed over a chart of how long accounts remained open, would we need any more information other than the raw retention rates to answer this question?

Yes, just because an account is open doesn't mean the person is  still playing.  What about people with lifetime accounts?  What if they haven't played in years?  There are people who still pay for accounts even though they never play.  We only need to track accounts that are actively played, say, that have been logged into in the past week.

Oh no, here comes the XFire threads again :cower:

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Zapzap

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/31/13
Posts: 207

10/31/13 9:51:08 AM#72

I cannot recall the last time I have played a MMO where I have not played it for years. 

Rift Alpha August 2009-2013

Vanguard Beta 2006- 2009

Wow 2004-2006

Daoc 2001-2004

EQ1 1999-2001

With lots of other MMOs thrown in as side games or 2nd games. 

 

But I really do not consider that one has actually played a MMO until they have at least 100 days played.  In Rift for example I doubt I know anyone with less than 100 days played.  Most well over 200 days played.

 

If your playing traditional AAA MMOs there is generally lots of content.  The problem is the modern player.  The modern player has not attention span, wants everything handed to them and spends more time on MMO forums than actually playing MMOs.  They are not MMO players they are just box sale consumers.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3695

10/31/13 9:55:17 AM#73
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by maplestone
If we had a company handed over a chart of how long accounts remained open, would we need any more information other than the raw retention rates to answer this question?

Yes, just because an account is open doesn't mean the person is  still playing.  What about people with lifetime accounts?  What if they haven't played in years?  There are people who still pay for accounts even though they never play.  We only need to track accounts that are actively played, say, that have been logged into in the past week.

Oh no, here comes the XFire threads again :cower:

I certainly don't care, I'm just saying that if we want an accurate view of what's actually going on, it requires more information than open accounts.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10633

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

 
OP  10/31/13 10:01:09 AM#74


Originally posted by Scot

Originally posted by lizardbones  

Originally posted by Scot Another poll to show how the content locusts are right about what MMOs should be like, another fail on their part.
What, if anything, does my post have to do with content locusts? It's about perception. Do MMORPGs have a high retention rate than other types of games, and do they have a longer average play time than other types of games, or is this just a perception on the part of the people who want things to be that way?
If that was not your intention sorry, but we do get polls like that on a regular basis. Yes they do have a higher retention etc, but not anywhere near as long as they had. Still they beat solo games hands down in that regard, I would say though that the multiplayer aspect of many solo games can hold people for a long time as well.

Perhaps in a perfect world we could have a game which was both a solo game and had a MMO as multiplayer attached. You can but dream.

 




That really wasn't my intention. Other people are more interested in those types of things, and much better at discussing those topics. :-) I'm just thinking about perception versus reality.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5528

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/31/13 10:47:21 AM#75
I have not noticed that I play MMORPGs any longer than anything else.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

10/31/13 10:54:29 AM#76
Originally posted by Scot
 

If that was not your intention sorry, but we do get polls like that on a regular basis. Yes they do have a higher retention etc, but not anywhere near as long as they had. Still they beat solo games hands down in that regard, I would say though that the multiplayer aspect of many solo games can hold people for a long time as well.

Diablo 2 probably has a much better record of holding players than 99% of MMOs. So is CoD, and may be even battlefield 3.

 

  SpottyGekko

Elite Member

Joined: 9/26/04
Posts: 2906

10/31/13 11:09:29 AM#77

MMO's do not have an exclusive hold on "longevity", and they don't necessarily "fail" if they don't keep all players exclusively playing them for years. But both the concept of "longevity" and "fail" are extremely subjective, so this tends to be an endless argument.

 

There's probably far more longterm players in a game like EVE than in a game like SWTOR. Static dev-created content does not remain fresh and cannot be produced fast enough to be both sufficient in quantity AND of good quality.

 

So the more sandboxy game designs will have a far better shot at longevity than the themeparks, imho. But like any piece of entertainment, only the really entertaining ones will remain popular for extended periods of time.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19731

10/31/13 11:30:44 AM#78
Originally posted by SpottyGekko

MMO's do not have an exclusive hold on "longevity", and they don't necessarily "fail" if they don't keep all players exclusively playing them for years. But both the concept of "longevity" and "fail" are extremely subjective, so this tends to be an endless argument.

This is exactly right.

For a B2P game like GW2, they already make their money (or a large part of it) when you buy the game. Whether the players stick around for a long time is not as important as a sub-only game.

 

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/31/13 1:03:27 PM#79
Only pve mmos I've played a long time were wow and EQ. All the others you end up finishing the game after few months

Pvp mmos are a different matter, I've stuck around in war, daoc & planetside 2 for a long time, because they don't run out of content.
  Kaneth

Elite Member

Joined: 8/19/07
Posts: 1588

10/31/13 1:38:03 PM#80
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Burntvet

"Modern MMORPGs" have no longevity, most crash after a few months.

That was not the case with a good number of the "original" MMORPGs, which actually increased player populations after launch (a radical concept, I know...).

Careful there; many (all?) of the originals peaked and went into declines before year five.

In fact, you can count the number of games that increased population steadily for more than five years on just two fingers, can't you? Neither of those two games being considered 'classic era'--not good for the point you're trying to make here.

It most certainly is: A game holding or increasing its population to year 5 is unheard of these days.

Forget 5 years, how about 2 years? 1 Year?

TOR, The Secret World, Rift, even GW2 had big numbers at the beginning and then crashed. None of those had any increase after launch, at all...

UO, SWG, EvE, DAOC, and others had their numbers go up after launch, as word of mouth got more people to play.

All world of mouth does these days is tell people how shallow the game is, how short a time it takes to "beat" an MMORPG, and how crappy the cash shop is.

 

And those are two trends pretty much all the numbers show to be what has really happened.

 

You're also not comparing apples to apples here. Before WoW the mmo market was a niche market, slowly growing, but it was still very niche. EQ was the "big deal" before WoW and was mentioned in some other media, but nothing like WoW. 

So what has really happened is that in the post WoW era, mmos became just like every other game. They are advertised well, and sell big at the outset after which point people play through as much as they care to see and put it down. The mmorpg is no longer a genre for nerds. It's yet another gaming genre, and we're seeing the effects of it now.

We're starting to see changes in the genre. ANet tried to at least be different with GW2, but I'd say they didn't go far enough. Games like ESO and EQN are also at least attempting to not follow the exact WoW formula. At the same time, FF XIV completely followed the WoW formula (with a slight twist) and they have 1.5 million active accounts (time will tell whether this is meaningful or not). 

MMOs are far to mainstream to be set outside the sphere of the rest of the gaming world. Sure, mmos by their very nature are designed to be long term affairs, but does the average gamer have the attention span for that anymore? Get to max level, beat the raids and many claim they've beaten the game and leave. Nevermind any new content that is delivered after the fact, because the game is "beat" in their eyes.

The newer games are partially to blame, but the change in gaming habits, those who seemingly want instant action, are just as much to blame. When FPS and MOBAs have the highest consistent populations that shows where the population went and what they want.

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