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News & Features Discussion  » [Preview] General: The End is Not Remotely Nigh

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Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

10/18/13 5:19:37 PM#21

i agree with Ms Jonte primarily because i have seen this same dysfunctional behavior in other areas of daily life.


someone always has some kind of drama, some kind of earth shattering or virtual world demolishing news and fears.


frankly, i think its because most people in our culture cannot seem to live without drama. they can't seem to live with the mundane world we inhabit. so they go to a virtual world. but in the end that virtual world becomes mundane in many aspects as well. so what then? well if you aren't being given the drama adrenaline rush you need you create it.


everyone was sure in politics that GWBush was the end of america, now its Obama. before them it was Clinton. every time things seem to be going well some group has to find what the secret drama is so they can then obsess unhealthily over it, get worked up on forums about it, and generally try to piss in everyone's pool in order to prove themselves right.


when you get older you suddenly realize that this is a rather large drain on what little energy you have left at the end of the day.


and when that happens you finally wave goodbye to the dramatis personae (except on occasion when you get really bored >.<).


basically, you get over the drama and you get over yourself and then the world doesn't have to be something exhausting.

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse


Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 837

10/18/13 11:24:50 PM#22

I said this for the past few  years MMO's are dieing, I have ran a community for 14 years, I see more players playing FPS games and most that leave  because there isn't enough good games and because they like different types of games.   Heck I went to school to get my degree to help game production and wanted to make MMO's and been involved with them.  Well sadly publishers want fast cash and will ruin any good chance at a good game.


Now we have indies, some people on this  site make rude remarks because some don't look as pretty, they want some thing different, some indies do that but gamers want it all and for nothing, not all gamers but alot say this, I read , blog and listen to all of this.


MMO's are dieing.


Reasons are, Old gamers tired of the games we see, to  easy... We are used to UO, DOAC, AC1, and EQ, when MMO's were fun, now they just suck.


New gamers want it all and for free, I listen to this even in my community, and when I blog, OH Sub base!! Never mind, really??? I have to pay are you kidding me, well F2P ruins it, because bad communitys most of the time, and cheaters every where and gold sellers, so people leave.

To many games with this so called end game when people hit max level they quit, and then every person in there guild follows to the next MMO a month or two later, I see that alot in most communitys.


Iphone and ANdroid is  where the DEVS with any brains are going , because one its faster to make, and cheaper to make.   You can play these games anywhere and cheap.. Plus you can play a silly game for a few mins and don't have to worry about some jerk on the net calling you names and being annoying, sorry but this is true the market is going this way. These are facts, check for your self...


I love MMO's and would like to see better ones , but if people want stop and think, that a good one takes time and money and gamers need to stop throwing fits like a 3 year old maybe a good company would make one.


I personally think it can be an Indie if people would lay off with how dated they look when in fact, AC1 was bad looking but an amazing game, best game I have ever played hands down.


My wife nags me to make a Modern Asheron call  . Just maybe one day.


Advanced Member

Joined: 5/06/10
Posts: 837

10/18/13 11:32:59 PM#23
Originally posted by NinjaGaz

I don't see the death of MMOs, but I hope that somebody really does take note that a large majority has "been there, done that" on MMOs as they stand. Most will not keep a high base of players past 3 months because it is rinse and repeat.

It takes a long time to build an MMO, but by the time they've got the foundations in place they're ready to launch. There's no expansion on the basic model - often there's a small tweak. There is so much more than can be done. We've seen in games like minecraft that players will play for no reason just to build something. The MMO world is perfect for that and so houses should appear in the world (like UO) but with great customisation.

Then there is the economy/crafting side of the games, which are always poor. Why isn't there a big focus on sorting this out? Stop dropping items everywhere and make buying them (or crafting them) off other players the priority. Get players to set up contracts for newer players to supply them with materials so that they can sell crafted items to others. Get rid (or have a large charge) on auction houses and replace them with player/guild run shops.

Keep some open world areas for PvP, but allow guilds to declare war on each other and set no loot, some loot, full loot on the battles.

Combat should be more like the Loremaster in LOTRO, where you are constantly switching between attack, defence, crowd control, heal, etc. No more 1,2,3s!

Have skill come into it more by things like... having a crosshair which grows larger or smaller depending on the level of your opponent. You can fight someone 10 levels higher, but you have to be damned accurate, or fight someone 10 levels lower and get a big advantage with a larger crosshair... be prepared to be beaten by a weaker player!

Turn large scale battles into multiple smaller battles - where the zerg does not have an impact and skill and teamwork can win the war.

Every area can be looked at and expanded on. Improved so much, but nobody seems to bother. They all seem to get the basics there, get a story about elves, dwarves and humans, put your tank/healer/dps/support in. Game done!

We can only hope that Titan raises the bar so much, because the MMO gaming world has stagnated.


So you know many Indies have tried this, but people see full loot and don't want to play it, I have seen games take out full loot with insurance, and people still hate PVP.. 


The issue is you have people who love that style of combat were others hate it, some love hosuing, some hate it, there is no happy medium today, so that is the hard part.


I hate questing in most MMO's today to much hand holding, I perfer lore base like AC1, sadly we don't have this, if we did people would freak, heck even Secret World tried something like that and look how many what I call new gamers whined and said it was to hard, so I think todays gamers ruin it and make it so hard for devs to make games.



I have blogged and asked gamers what is the perfect game for them combat style,Game play Mechanics, housing or not, PVP or not etc. I get the dumbest comments.


I get make a good game, well what is a good game to you!!! Most people can't answer this because as the poster above me said I think people like to cry about what ever they can, because they can.. They aren't happy unless they can complain, I see this alot as well, I been playing MMO's since the very first one was made...



Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/19/11
Posts: 796

10/19/13 9:25:20 AM#24
It is silly to say that X will kill the genre, but it's certainly the truth that casualization has killed it for me. Over the years, the things I enjoyed were cut out and replaced with convenience features like AHs, teleportation to instances or cities, instances themselves, no meaningful penalties for failure, less of a chance of failure and many others. It all piled up and now i barely even register when a new mmo is announced/hyped up. I wouldn't say it's casual players but rather developers who feel they must cater to this crowd. 

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/19/13 10:01:58 AM#25
Originally posted by RudedawgCDN


I don't think anyone has ever said the mmo genre is ever going away - I think what most people are saying is - the mmo genre is stale, repetitive, lacking in innovation and boring.

And the next genre is overdue and likely to arrive any moment now. (And if LoL is the first baby of the next gen, it already has.)

"My ancient favorite will still be around a decade from now, but I won't be playing it because I'll be doing [xxxx] instead..."

Old Blues Fans muttering about the emergence of Elvis...

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.


Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5737

10/20/13 3:04:38 AM#26
The genre has already died a couple of times, the end was nigh years ago. MMOs today are different games but are still using the same genre title. They are likely to change even more over the next few years so if you like them the way they are now, play them while you can.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

10/20/13 4:56:37 AM#27
As long as it's alive for me, I don't care if it's dead for you.

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 749

10/20/13 9:49:57 AM#28

From the Article....

"The emergence of movies in the 1920s didn’t kill live theater. More people buying radios in the 1930s didn’t kill off the movie industry, nor did more people buying televisions in the 1950s. The invention of the computer and the emergence of the Internet hasn’t killed any of the entertainment mediums that came before it. Moreover, all of those things has, in decades of Cassandra-like hand wringing, been proclaimed again and again as the imminent killer of the written word. You tell me, how’s the publishing industry doing? Are people still reading? You bet they are, and in more convenient and inventive ways than ever."

And these events also changed each of these genres, these things, forever. They were never the same again.

It's not that the MMO Genre will die.... No it will not die...

It is that the MMO Genre will change in ways we older fans do not want, or appreciate, or agree with. For many of us the MMO Genre HAS died... for us personally. I know several People in real life that used to play MMOs years ago, but they did not agree with the changes, or did not like the direction MMOs were going, so they quit. Good Players gone that helped make the genre special.

The MMO Genre is not, nor will ever be, just software and servers, or just Investors dumping their money into it, or great gameplay and graphics. It is all these things plus something much more's also the Players themselves that make the MMO genre what it is. Without the Players the genre is meaningless. Anything that affects the Players affects the genre.

That's why Changes to MMOs to attract different People than they did before feels like such a Personal Attack... because the business decision to change customer Bases by changing who is attracted to MMOs *IS* a Personal Attack.

That's why for some of us the MMO genre Sky has fallen.


Advanced Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 749

10/20/13 9:52:21 AM#29
Originally posted by DamonVile
As long as it's alive for me, I don't care if it's dead for you.

I do care if it's dead for you.

I find it very troubling that you and others hold this attitude, this point of view. That is not a good indicator of the future of this genre OR our collective real life future either.


Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2719

10/20/13 2:00:04 PM#30

OP you seems missing the point and not understand what some saying here.

Offcorse when someone say mmo's are dead don't mean they are.

If millions like mmo's with spoonfed gameplay and cookies plus shops you can buy your way to top thats fine but for me and few others mmo's are DEAD.

Understand OP?

New players keep comming and more and more playing becouse of easy acces through all kinds of devices and gameportals you can play games and mmo's.

F2P is defenition of death to mmo's yes...but prolly not for millions who want meaningless spoonfed cash grabbing monsters comming into there lifes and grab there wallets or give them cookies without any sweat or achievement:p

If i shout mmo's are dead there dead for me its THE END prolly not for you OP and many others fine by me have fun.

For me yes:)

Back to solo games which are alive and kicking for me:)

CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
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Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 12

10/20/13 11:07:22 PM#31

The MMO surface has barely been scratched yet. When you boil it all down, EQ 1 - Next, DAoC, WOW, WAR, Conan, GW2, LotR - they're all the same game. MMOs have barely begun. We're still in the infancy stage, and one baby started to walk and fell over. 


The reality of millions of humans connected via computers is the ultimate gaming environment. We've only just begun...


Novice Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1492

10/20/13 11:21:53 PM#32

"not everything on offer will be Tolstoy. Sometimes it’ll be Twilight."


It's more like editing the writing  in "War and Peace" to appeal to fans of "Twilight". Not only that, but getting rid of all the unedited versions. I know that analogy overstates the difference but I'm not worried that there'll be no games called MMOs in the future. I'm worried that none of them will be things I want to play.



Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5737

10/21/13 2:46:40 AM#33
Originally posted by iridescence

"not everything on offer will be Tolstoy. Sometimes it’ll be Twilight."


It's more like editing the writing  in "War and Peace" to appeal to fans of "Twilight". Not only that, but getting rid of all the unedited versions. I know that analogy overstates the difference but I'm not worried that there'll be no games called MMOs in the future. I'm worried that none of them will be things I want to play.


This is close to by main concern, if there is only meaningless crap to consume you are never going to realise that there could be something else. Those who never saw what we had before will assume you can only make MMOs this way. Not that I have a blinkered view of the past, some things about the old gameplay are better left in the past. As gamers have now been replaced by social media types as the market to go for I can see no way that players will end up addressing these issues. At least the solo players were gamers, they had a gaming ethos even if it was not the same as ours.

We are moving into an era where gaming is going to be driven by the preferences of those who only game as an occasional pastime. I doubt it is going to be a bright future.



Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/02/12
Posts: 261

10/21/13 4:23:02 AM#34

The problem with MMOs these days, in my opinion, is that developers are just making the game, and forgetting to make a world. In all the MMOs that most people seem to love, they felt immersed in a world, small things like npc chatter, day/night cycles, large zones to explore, etc... All of this created an experience that no other genre could provide.

Nowadays it feels like we are all playing a lobby game waiting on our pvp/instance queue to pop whilst running circles in a player hub. I truly believe that if just one developer can go back to creating a world to play in, and not just a game to be put down after the first month, people would flock to it. 


Novice Member

Joined: 6/14/12
Posts: 82

10/21/13 3:19:39 PM#35

Changes to MMOs kill entertainment about as much as articles like this kill MMO forums.


The emergence of this website, for example, did not deter other game-themed websites from forming.


My analogy is more on-topic than you'd think.


There are game websites (other than that scour the web for video game topics, and put those topics on their website solely to generate hits. They carefully wrap their meta data with proper search tags to ensure their websites show up while browsing gaming topics, but they don't offer anything that isn't available somewhere else.


Similarly, there are video games that scour the pre-existing video game world for content, and put that content in their games solely to generate interest. They carefully craft their games' hype & advertising effort with keywords like Innovative and Unprecedented, but don't offer any gameplay that isn't available anywhere else.


The biggest change to the gaming landscape is virtual reality. The nonsense we argue about today will be fodder for tomorrow's "old school gamer" arguments.


Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20144

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/21/13 5:17:45 PM#36
Originally posted by Scot
Originally posted by iridescence

"not everything on offer will be Tolstoy. Sometimes it’ll be Twilight."



We are moving into an era where gaming is going to be driven by the preferences of those who only game as an occasional pastime. I doubt it is going to be a bright future.


I agree, but think we've been in this mode for a number of years now, but the future still has a few bright spots on the horizon.


In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
"I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
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Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20144

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/21/13 5:24:56 PM#37
Originally posted by 9reesracer9

I think a similar entertainment analogy can be found in television...

the expansion of premium (e.g. HBO, Showtime) and good cable networks (e.g. FX and AMC) was supposed to signal the end for the core America anyway. Instead, we have a significant increase in content that appeals to a wider audience, but also dilutes the participation (viewership) for most singular programs. 

Now, we have those who still can watch decent quality television for (basically) free on the networks, and then another demographic that chooses to pay for expanded cable service (for those that want/wanted to watch Breaking Bad or Justified), and then another group that is willing to pay even more for the premium content (Game of Thrones, Homeland). 

The MMO game industry is not terribly different in the current form. If you want to pay more, then you will have more options. This is the way the free-market system is supposed to work. Unfortunately, this kind of competition means quality products die (e.g. Glitch and Firefly).

The MMO as a genre will not die anytime soon, but will continue to evolve based on the developers' ability to adapt to the desires of the audience they  seek to entice. 

OK, let's talk about the entertainment/TV analogy.

Say my favorite form of movie back in the day was "the Western".

Now, when movies/TV were young, you could find westerns all over the place, much like early MMORPG's and their more realistic virtual worlds.

But as time moved on, entertainment changed, and you would be hard pressed to find more than 1 or 2 western themed shows/movies in any given year.  If I really want to enjoy a lot of westerns, my only option is to back and watch all the old titles and shows, because there's no real modern option.

The MMORPG industry is a lot like this.  More entertainment than ever before, but if I really want to play a MMORPG designed the way I like them, I have to go back and play a DAOC free shard set to 2003.  (which I've been doing the past 5 or 6 months now)

No, the industry isn't dead, but MMORPG's with the game designs I favor died a long time ago, and yes, it actually was the entry of the more casual gamer into the marketplace that killed them off.

Your not being paranoid if someone really is out to get you.

In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
"I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon


Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/28/12
Posts: 112

10/21/13 10:27:32 PM#38

Good article!  

Our hobby is changing to be sure.  More people are playing games than when I started to.  I like the mall analogy.  When shopping malls started appearing across america and more recently in Europe, people said it was the end of downtowns.  To a certain extent, this was true.  The traditional downtown stores died but more recently they have begun to flourish as merchants learned to deliver a differentiated shopping experience.  Also many failed to realize the malls attracted traffic that other merchants could advantage if they knew how to attract it; e,g did Wow attract more people to the genre.  sure it did.  Does one need to develop a new "Wow."  Absolutely not.. You need something different..

Developers need to build a better experience.  They need to learn about what works and what doesn't and apply what is learned.  What does that look like?  I'm not sure.  I don't develop games for a living but if I did here's a few things that I would include:

  • A viable out-of-game tool/smartphone app (Wow's armory, Neverwinter's Portal)
  • Great guild tools - Lot's of room to excel here.  Not much innovation here
  • Flame me if you want but you need some form of LFG tool.
  • Think social..MMOs are a social experience.  That doesn't mean playing a solo game alongside a bunch of other people (SWTOR)  Find a way to make guilds, people, alliances relevant...

Why am I excited about ESO?  See the list above.. They seem to be on it...

The Band


Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6496

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/21/13 11:34:13 PM#39
Originally posted by Kyleran

Your not being paranoid if someone really is out to get you.

Shrug. The number of TV viewers who would prefer Westerns so strongly that nothing else could entice them to turn on their TV is so vanishingly small, TV producers will happily write them off and just move on.

You can rope them in with the once-a-decade primetime reunion special, at least while a couple of the cast members are still alive. (Gunsmoke did theirs in '78)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.


Novice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 265

10/30/13 9:43:27 AM#40

As a player of WoW, Eq1/2, Lotrs, SWToR, Vanguard, Tera, and previous player of FF11/SWG/DDO/STO, as well as betas of FF14ARR/Rift/STO, I can attest that the genre has gotten extremely stale. We don't even get anything exciting for game content updates anymore~

You wait and wait, and then that anticipated update finally arrives, and its boring, some tiny little isle like WoW's timeless isle, or more raid content!! Whooo.... 

Well, it isn't like they are to poor and incapable of giving us more, companies just won't give us more. We all love more tradeskill crafting recipes to have fun with, we all love more random fluff like world events, and silly little things or even accept copy/paste geography layouts with copy/pasted npcs.  It doesn't all have to be new artwork, it just has to be new dialogue and different quests! 

Games come out with cool new features like WoW's scenarios, then abandon them as they make the gear outdated and worthless with Timeless Isle's easier to attain alt loot and new lfrs/raids for better gear! Release some awesome dungeons originally with an expansion, but then never bother to provide harder challenging ones with current equipment standards. Trivialize outdate all previous expansion content with every single game update patch release, so that all of the players move on to the "best shiny new thing" . 

Now, we have the technology that we could combine WoW's flexible raids with Lord of the Rings Online skirmish 1,3, or full party system, with Everquest 2's scaling level content. We even have phasing on WoW to up population in zones, however what is the point of killing a world boss when the mounts are non-existant 1% or .025% drop rate, and the gear just got outdated by that brand new content update patch? 

Everyone can't always rush off to the new expansion and leave the older ones deserted and empty ghost towns, that is what kills mmos right now. Only the current expansion is "relevant".  Only the newest content update is desired. 

My boyfriend quit playing mmos because they are all the same stale, however I remain and will always continue to do so (especially since most games are free). 


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