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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » You are wrong. Older gamers are not more resistant to change. Most MMO's really are just shallow.

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149 posts found
  Nadia

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11568

10/28/13 10:25:39 AM#121
Originally posted by Classicstar

Try explain young people how wonderful it was when there where no mobile phones or tablets or internet, i can't they look at me if im from another planet hehe

gotta love context

 

I used to be an avid reader of books / magazines

but now I'm more immersed in video gaming than anything else

  aesperus

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4782

10/28/13 10:36:41 AM#122
Originally posted by Quirhid
[mod edit]

For all that effort you resort to an ad hominem? The reseach I am referring to is in the field of organizational leadership & management and management of change, not gerontology, but I am not too enthusiastic about searching for those articles again. The field doesn't interest me all that much and I don't expect to work in HR anytime soon.

The term cognitive inertia explains some of the reasons why veterans are more likely to be resistant to change. People stick to what they know and the longer it has worked for them so far, the harder it is to give it up.

Well said.

I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp, lol.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1362

10/28/13 11:53:45 AM#123
Originally posted by Quirhid
 

The term cognitive inertia explains some of the reasons why veterans are more likely to be resistant to change. People stick to what they know and the longer it has worked for them so far, the harder it is to give it up.

 

Basically "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Seems like common sense to me. I don't like change for the sake of change. If I like something the way it is why would I want it to change?

 

  rasiem

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/07/03
Posts: 76

10/28/13 12:04:54 PM#124
I totally agree with the OP I know many gamers who are always thinking, Man there needs to be somthing new. I would love to see more games come forth that were like the old Asherons Call because you could either choose to customize your class build or pick from the prebuilt warrior, caster etc. Instead of trying to target the younger audience they should be looking for ways to please everyone instead of bending over to one side or the other, and yes there are ways to do it . In my opinion there recycling the wrong things from game to game everyone wants somthing new not just the new guys. Honestly if there was more lower level things to do they would have more time to focus on endgame updates but this is just my opinion.
  User Deleted
 
OP  10/28/13 10:48:30 PM#125

Honestly, I am not sure why 7 of my references were deleted. I guess people truly want to believe the Elderly are incompetent people who forget everything, live in old folks home, have a dried up sex life, and poop their pants every day.

It is simply amazing to me how vehemently some users here want to believe the myths about the Elderly, and deny the facts about them.

 

This will most likely be the last time I ever defend the elderly on this website. What is the point? These young kids are adamant about believing they fit the stereotypes.

It is so sad, when all you wanted to say was "Many of the common stereotypes about the elderly are myths." and the result is people denying research, using ad hominem attacks, and saying "That research proves the myths ARE true!"

 

 

It goes beyond me, how someone can read "Myth: The Elderly are adaptable when it comes to change." and then say THAT VERY SENTENCE proves "Fact: The Elderly are resistance when it comes to change."

Enjoy your ignorance kids. I mean, justice is inevitable. You'll be old one day, and the youth will believe myths about you just the same :)

  jesad

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/30/06
Posts: 731

Think of something witty and pretend that I typed it in this spot :)

10/29/13 3:14:42 AM#126

Hey man, for the record I am in my mid 40's and proud of it.  I got nothing against the elderly, nor do I believe they they are stubborn old mules that don't have sex or sit around and poop themselves all day.  I don't even think that is right to say.  But if you are going to get yourself all emotionally invested in anything that anyone on the internet says I can tell you that you are plain old barking up the wrong tree.

True, a lot of people are just plain ignorant.  That still doesn't make it polite to point that out though.  As the saying goes, "There but for the grace of god go I" and if you are human, which I believe most of us are, it is completely likely that you too were that ignorant at some point, before you knew better not to be, as well.

Trying to tell them/us then, and expecting them/us to listen, is like expecting your younger self to have listened to everything your parents told you when you were growing up.  You can't really expect that to work.  It can't work.  Young people don't even have the context to put a lot of what older people are saying to them in perspective because older folks are talking from experiences that younger people haven't even had yet when giving most of their advice.

As for research.  Well, all research is practice, not rule.  That's why doctors "practice" medicine and lawyers "practice" law.  If we all just settled in on what research told us we'd all be screwed as there is constantly a new study coming out to contradict an old study every day.  Why just the other day I heard research that said that coffee was good for you.  Then I went to the doctors office only to hear him say, "Don't drink that stuff, its terrible for you!"  I mean, what are you gonna do right?  Fuggetaboutit!!!

So cheer up buckeroo.  The silver lining here is that they/we will all learn eventually.  In the meantime, if you are elderly, or even an adult, try to set a better example than to come into a place where you know the youth hangs out and repeatedly call everyone ignorant for not genuflecting at your elderly magnificence.  For in the words of my good friend "Willy Shakes"...

"Tis unmanly grief.

It shows a will most incorrect to heaven,

A heart unfortified, a mind impatient,

An understanding simple and unschooled.

For what we know must be and is as common"

In other words.  Let em live and learn for theirselves, you got to, so should they.

And as for anyone who thinks that 40 something is old, send yer lady over to my place and she and I can discuss it over a glass of Courvoisier :P  I got mine right here! - The Ladies Man (2000)

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/29/13 4:37:10 AM#127

I think the main problem of many "older gamers" is that they somehow built the image of the "perfect MMORPG" in their mind over the years, and any game that strays even a bit away from that image is, in their mind again, a "failure". Much said on this forum actually confirms that theory.

I'm an old gamer with an open mind. I'm willing, no I'm yearning for new experiences different from the same old I've already done. I also have some "perfect MMORPG" image somewhere, but I don't let it go in the way when I try new games.

When I see people asking for a copy of old EQ with better graphics, I can't help but facepalm. Exactly the same people complain that many of the latest games are "clones", which makes it a double facepalm.

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

My computer is better than yours.

  Adamantine

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/07/08
Posts: 3346

War is not the ultima ratio, but the ultima irratio - Willy Brandt

10/29/13 5:51:27 AM#128

I'm not resistant to change, if I see that its change to the better.

In fact I spend a lot of my time to try to change the world for the better.

But I dont jump on fashions that make no sense to me though. For example, I simply dont need a cellphone, and I hate this attitude of being reacheable all the time. I dont need that, thank you very much.

 

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1362

10/29/13 6:00:16 AM#129
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

 

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

Fans aren't businesspeople working for games companies. They ask for games they want to play, not games they think will sell. Which is as it should be since they get no benefit from a good selling game that they don't personally enjoy.

PS I'd like to try EQ with better graphics since I never got to play the original one :)

 

  Rodentofdoom

Novice Member

Joined: 3/02/08
Posts: 273

10/29/13 6:49:55 AM#130
Originally posted by Loktofeit
 

Learning becomes more difficult as one gets older and as a result people may stick with tried and true as they get on in age, which is what people tend to misinterpret as the older one gets the more they resist change. 

Various experts on the mechanics of the learning process will disagree with that viewpoint.

A Maslow & G Petty are just 2 of the many Authors within the education & learning sector that believe the ability to learn is not linked to age.

 

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/29/13 7:34:20 AM#131
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

 

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

Fans aren't businesspeople working for games companies. They ask for games they want to play, not games they think will sell.

Fans expect the companies to absorb losses and make High Art That Supports The Principles of Fine Gaming.

Companies continue to make what earns profits, ideally maximal profits.

(This shocks and baffles fans. A basic clash between idealism and reality.)

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1036

10/29/13 8:17:17 AM#132
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

 

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

Fans aren't businesspeople working for games companies. They ask for games they want to play, not games they think will sell.

Fans expect the companies to absorb losses and make High Art That Supports The Principles of Fine Gaming.

Companies continue to make what earns profits, ideally maximal profits.

(This shocks and baffles fans. A basic clash between idealism and reality.)

 

But is this really the case with MMORPGs? The equivalent to MMORPG is that the Avengers sell record numbers and 90 percent of movies released afterwards are super hero that flop in the box office(subscriptions) and make money with DVD gimmicks(P2P). People who like other movies are then told to watch older movies or give up on movies period. People proclaim that nobody wants to watch any other type of movie based on making continuous flops that turn a profit later in life. I don't think breaking a failure to bring in a narrowly targeted segment of gamer with mediocre games and mediocre profit in compared to whats being emulated is high art. I think that it says a lot about desires of the casual base that they can't give the games away to meet a quarter of a base of WoW subscribers.
  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 19249

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/29/13 8:35:09 AM#133
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

 

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

Fans aren't businesspeople working for games companies. They ask for games they want to play, not games they think will sell.

Fans expect the companies to absorb losses and make High Art That Supports The Principles of Fine Gaming.

Companies continue to make what earns profits, ideally maximal profits.

(This shocks and baffles fans. A basic clash between idealism and reality.)

Most of the variety we got from the 1st round of MMORPG's wasn't due to any idealistic purpose on the part of the developers, it  was more due to the fact they didn't really know what features and designs would sell the best.

Once Blizzard showed everyone the way to high profits it pretty much sealed the deal in terms of how MMO's would be designed going forward and will likely remain the same until some firm ventures off the path a bit and manages to have an unexpected break out hit using some more radical designs.

 

Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/29/13 8:48:15 AM#134
Originally posted by Kyleran

Once Blizzard showed everyone the way to high profits it pretty much sealed the deal in terms of how MMO's would be designed going forward and will likely remain the same until some firm ventures off the path a bit and manages to have an unexpected break out hit using some more radical designs.

Exactly so. Essentially, an entirely different genre.

Since the original ideas aren't exactly appearing from thin air on demand, we're awaiting the next basic major re-thinking of all of the core concepts, the One Great Game that spawns a hundred new ideas, followed by another fine-tuning period.

What won't work is turning the clock hands backwards 15 years, stomping yet again along already well-worn pathways.

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Vermillion_Raventhal

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 6/01/04
Posts: 1036

10/29/13 9:12:10 AM#135
Originally posted by Icewhite
Originally posted by Kyleran

Once Blizzard showed everyone the way to high profits it pretty much sealed the deal in terms of how MMO's would be designed going forward and will likely remain the same until some firm ventures off the path a bit and manages to have an unexpected break out hit using some more radical designs.

Exactly so. Essentially, an entirely different genre.

Since the original ideas aren't exactly appearing from thin air on demand, we're awaiting the next basic major re-thinking of all of the core concepts, the One Great Game that spawns a hundred new ideas, followed by another fine-tuning period.

What won't work is turning the clock hands backwards 15 years, stomping yet again along already well-worn pathways.

 

I think many like me are waiting on change. But I don't see the harm in letting it be know there are lots of players who want older game types or point out that emulation of WoW has not produced any game a quarter of the success. These games haven't held subscriptions while older games still held stable subscriber bases.
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/29/13 10:47:57 AM#136
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

 

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

Fans aren't businesspeople working for games companies. They ask for games they want to play, not games they think will sell. Which is as it should be since they get no benefit from a good selling game that they don't personally enjoy.

PS I'd like to try EQ with better graphics since I never got to play the original one :)

Fans aren't developers either, nor designers. The vast majority of them have dreams that just can't come true, or that nobody else except themself would play.

Not saying every game should have WoW's player base. But you need a minimum success to be able to keep your game running, and making a game as expensive as a MMORPG with only 100 people ending playing it on long term doesn't work.

___________

This is not for the quoted person, but in general:

By the way, do you really think the people who made UO, EQ or AC1 didn't expect profit? If yes... it's a nice fantasy world you're living in.

My computer is better than yours.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20173

10/29/13 11:37:00 AM#137
Originally posted by Kyleran
 

Most of the variety we got from the 1st round of MMORPG's wasn't due to any idealistic purpose on the part of the developers, it  was more due to the fact they didn't really know what features and designs would sell the best.

Once Blizzard showed everyone the way to high profits it pretty much sealed the deal in terms of how MMO's would be designed going forward and will likely remain the same until some firm ventures off the path a bit and manages to have an unexpected break out hit using some more radical designs.

 

Yeah, and to be fair, companies do experiment all the time. Otherwise, we won't have MOBAs, WoT type instanced pvp games, and TCGs.

What you don't expect most companies to do is to go back to old, tried, and failed ideas.

  GrumpyMel2

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

10/29/13 2:37:11 PM#138

Speaking on a tangent here, but human beings (in general, regardless of age) are BOTH adaptable and resistant to change. These are NOT mutualy exclusive concepts and in fact are traits selected for by millions of years of evolution because they both have important roles as survival mechanisms.

To illustrate the point....  If I eat red berries and I have a positive experience (e.g. I don't get sick and die) then I will continue to select those same berries again WHEN they are available. I will eschew trying green berries as long as the red berries are availble because the green berries may very well poison and kill me. This trait of sticking with the familiar as long as it is positive is ingrained in our instincts. We may be able to overrule it on a level of higher logic and purposefully make different choices, but we feel it on a gut level.

Now if conditions change and red berries no longer become easly available or become less positive in some way (e.g. you have to go into the territory of a dangerous predator to get them) THEN we go into ADAPTATION mode and try to experiment with different food sources or different ways of obtaining food because doing so is generaly a more effective survival strategy then starving or getting eaten trying to obtain the red berries....even though SOME of us will likely get poisoned and die with such experimentation. That adaptablity IS part of what makes us such a successfull species. WILLINGNESS to change when CONDITIONS DEMAND IT....is also part of our ingrained instincts.

BOTH these instincts are well recognized by marketers in the commercial world. For example....once a person goes shopping in a particular store and has a positive experience, they will tend to return to that store time and again, often not even bothering to try other stores. The more positive the experience, the more likely they are to return and not experiment. However, when conditions change....either for the store or the person.... the barrier to that person experimenting is significantly decreased. That's one reason, for example, Supermarkets often focus alot of marketing toward new and expecting parents.... that major life event where people are forced to buy products they never have before represents an opportunity to break thier in-grained shopping patterns and draw them to try shopping in different stores.

NOTE importantly here people develop patterns off of experiences that they percieve as POSITIVE and nothing about change itself implies that the change will provide a BETTER experience for the individual.

  Icewhite

Made History

Joined: 7/11/11
Posts: 6495

Pink, it's like red but not quite.

10/29/13 10:17:51 PM#139
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
I think many like me are waiting on change. But I don't see the harm in letting it be know there are lots of players who want older game types or point out that emulation of WoW has not produced any game a quarter of the success. These games haven't held subscriptions while older games still held stable subscriber bases.

Right. The only emulation that produced a quarter of WoW's success was...WoW. WoW was definitely the most successful emulation of EQ...certainly much better than EQ2 (or EQ3)...

OTOH, you can make exactly the same claim for EVE, or whatever this week's sandbox hero is, too. No game that's copied it has a quarter of its success.

You're betting (without confirmation data) on Faith in Some Company to speak the right Marketing (earning your dollars). Knowing full well that most publishing companies haven't done at all well fulfilling their marketing promises since 2004. Brand loyalty sure has a winning record over the past decade, yarr.

 

Keep betting the long shot, by all means. You're keeping the old work horses in Ferraris, while they flail about for not-producing original ideas and come up with ... what was the best game of 2007 again? 2009? 2011?

Self-pity imprisons us in the walls of our own self-absorption. The whole world shrinks down to the size of our problem, and the more we dwell on it, the smaller we are and the larger the problem seems to grow.

  Quirhid

Elite Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5620

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

10/30/13 2:50:52 AM#140
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

 

Oh, and worth mentioning too: most of those images of the "perfect MMORPG" are totally non viable and would tank and fail faster and harder than any of the games those "old gamers" critic harshly and pretend being failures.

Fans aren't businesspeople working for games companies. They ask for games they want to play, not games they think will sell. Which is as it should be since they get no benefit from a good selling game that they don't personally enjoy.

PS I'd like to try EQ with better graphics since I never got to play the original one :)

Fans aren't developers either, nor designers. The vast majority of them have dreams that just can't come true, or that nobody else except themself would play.

Not only could not necessarily come true or make profit, but also, they might not like themselves when implemented. It takes a certain degree of introspection to know what you like and why, and it takes proficiency in game design to know what tickles those fancies just right.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

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