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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why not start with end-game

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95 posts found
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

10/29/13 1:11:14 PM#61
Originally posted by Kilrain
Better yet, make the entire progression enjoyable and take several years to complete. I can't forget how long it took to level my characters in EQ and I enjoyed every minute of it. Not saying an EQ clone is in order but making the game enjoyable is far more important than worrying about "end game". When that phrase didn't exist, mmo's were more enjoyable.

 

Better yet, make the entire progression enjoyable and take several days to complete. I can't forget how long it took to level my characters in EQ and I find it quite boring. An EQ clone is out of the question and making the game enjoyable is far more important than stretch out leveling to a glacier pace. When it took too long to level, mmo's were much less enjoyable.

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/29/13 1:25:18 PM#62
Many games do.

EVE and planetside 2 drop you in at end game for a start.
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/29/13 1:30:46 PM#63
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by CowboyHat So what kind of content would you suggest for end game? Progressive raiding and PvP?
It is already done for pvp.

 

LoL, WoT, Starconflict ... are all instanced pvp games with no leveling "quest" progression.

 


 

None of those are MMORPG though~

Yeah I went there~

True .. but by some definitions, they are MMOs. You cannot have a mmoRPG with just end game, because you have to lose the leveling up part, and no longer make it a proper RPG.

 

Games where the whole content consists in instanced gameplay with only a dozen of players maximum are not MMOs. There's no big persistent part of some world in those games - there's actually no world at all per se.

Unless you are going to pretend that Doom, Quake and Unreal are MMOs.

My computer is better than yours.

  pierth

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/14/06
Posts: 1518

10/29/13 1:34:19 PM#64


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by Kilrain Better yet, make the entire progression enjoyable and take several years to complete. I can't forget how long it took to level my characters in EQ and I enjoyed every minute of it. Not saying an EQ clone is in order but making the game enjoyable is far more important than worrying about "end game". When that phrase didn't exist, mmo's were more enjoyable.
 

Better yet, make the entire progression enjoyable and take several days to complete. I can't forget how long it took to level my characters in EQ and I find it quite boring. An EQ clone is out of the question and making the game enjoyable is far more important than stretch out leveling to a glacier pace. When it took too long to level, mmo's were much less enjoyable.


Why is it that you can't seem to tolerate any game or genre having different goals than yours? We get it- you like to be able to complete content solo and don't personally want to have to devote large periods of time in a sitting to spending in game particularly *gasp* socializing with others. Multiple posters here have commented that your particular goals in games identify more strongly with the gameplay designed for single player/offline games. Is there a reason you choose MMORPGs as opposed to single player games that are more suited to your gaming preferences or do you just enjoy being obstinate and disagreeable to others?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

10/29/13 1:35:32 PM#65
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by CowboyHat So what kind of content would you suggest for end game? Progressive raiding and PvP?
It is already done for pvp.

 

LoL, WoT, Starconflict ... are all instanced pvp games with no leveling "quest" progression.

 


 

None of those are MMORPG though~

Yeah I went there~

True .. but by some definitions, they are MMOs. You cannot have a mmoRPG with just end game, because you have to lose the leveling up part, and no longer make it a proper RPG.

 

Games where the whole content consists in instanced gameplay with only a dozen of players maximum are not MMOs. There's no big persistent part of some world in those games - there's actually no world at all per se.

Unless you are going to pretend that Doom, Quake and Unreal are MMOs.

That is not the definition used by industry research firms, or even this site. D3 and LOL are listed under "MMO" here. So no .. you don't need a virtual world.

It is just a convenient label. The reason that Quake and Unreal are not categorized as such is just because of historical reasons. I bet Destiny will be classified as such, and it does not have a persistent world.

 

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/29/13 1:36:18 PM#66
LOL is not a mmo. If lol is a mmo counterstrike, team fortress and left 4 dead are mmos.

Just because some orwellian marketing dude decided to call a game a mmo doesn't make it one.
  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/29/13 1:38:04 PM#67
D3 isn't a mmo either its a cooperative / single player rpg.

Just because blizzard wanted to make money off the auction house by pretending its a mmo doesn't magically make it one.
  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/29/13 1:41:07 PM#68
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Ender4

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon

Originally posted by CowboyHat So what kind of content would you suggest for end game? Progressive raiding and PvP?
It is already done for pvp.

 

LoL, WoT, Starconflict ... are all instanced pvp games with no leveling "quest" progression.

 


 

None of those are MMORPG though~

Yeah I went there~

True .. but by some definitions, they are MMOs. You cannot have a mmoRPG with just end game, because you have to lose the leveling up part, and no longer make it a proper RPG.

 

Games where the whole content consists in instanced gameplay with only a dozen of players maximum are not MMOs. There's no big persistent part of some world in those games - there's actually no world at all per se.

Unless you are going to pretend that Doom, Quake and Unreal are MMOs.

That is not the definition used by industry research firms, or even this site. D3 and LOL are listed under "MMO" here. So no .. you don't need a virtual world.

It is just a convenient label. The reason that Quake and Unreal are not categorized as such is just because of historical reasons. I bet Destiny will be classified as such, and it does not have a persistent world.

Yeah, I know that if it served your "arguments" (if you have any), even "Solitaire" would be classified as a MMO.

This site mixes multiplayer and massively multiplayer games - and this site is made by humans, humans looking for funds and sponsors. Therefore this site can be just as wrong as everything else created by humans, actually even more since part of it is driven by money greed.

"Massively" is pretty self explanatory. It means a large part of the game takes place in a world where a massive amount of players share the same space. This isn't true for neither D3 not LOL. Neither D3 nor LOL, and nor WoT allow a massive amount of players to share the same space.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I know exactly what you are doing here. I won't answer anymore after this post. It was just to let you know not everyone here is fooled by your posts.

My computer is better than yours.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

10/29/13 1:48:07 PM#69

OP, I've been saying that ever since the industry decided to churn out MMORPGs that people can max out in a week, lol.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

10/29/13 1:57:14 PM#70
Originally posted by goldtoof
LOL is not a mmo. If lol is a mmo counterstrike, team fortress and left 4 dead are mmos.

Just because some orwellian marketing dude decided to call a game a mmo doesn't make it one.

and this site also called it so.

I will direct you to the "game list" tab up top. If you click on it, you will see

"MMORPG Gamelist - All MMO Games" and D3, LoL are listed under them.

  Cephus404

Novice Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3697

10/29/13 1:58:13 PM#71
Originally posted by goldtoof
Many games do.

EVE and planetside 2 drop you in at end game for a start.

That's not really endgame though, they just drop you into game.  Nothing ended, thus no endgame.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  goldtoof

Novice Member

Joined: 10/18/13
Posts: 338

10/29/13 2:39:09 PM#72
Nari
Still doesn't make them mmos.

It makes them popular games that mmorpg might as well cash in on for site traffick.
  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20703

10/29/13 3:26:57 PM#73
Originally posted by goldtoof
Nari
Still doesn't make them mmos.

It makes them popular games that mmorpg might as well cash in on for site traffick.

As if you are the authority.

I will take the industry, and MMORPG sites' opinions over yours. Thank you very much.

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1443

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

10/29/13 3:55:20 PM#74


Originally posted by goldtoof
NariStill doesn't make them mmos.It makes them popular games that mmorpg might as well cash in on for site traffick.

Ya those aren't MMOs; they are just games which this site hopes will choose to advertsie here. :P

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/29/13 4:18:43 PM#75
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by goldtoof
NariStill doesn't make them mmos.It makes them popular games that mmorpg might as well cash in on for site traffick.

 

Ya those aren't MMOs; they are just games which this site hopes will choose to advertsie here. :P

For once, I 200% agree with Arclan.

My computer is better than yours.

  KhinRunite

Novice Member

Joined: 11/05/10
Posts: 897

10/29/13 9:55:17 PM#76

A couple of people quoted me and stated that GW2 didn't start at end game.

If their idea of starting at end game is having their newly created character spawn at max level with full skill points to distribute then GW2 doesn't fall into that. If they were expecting a game where as soon as the character gets plopped down they can go roam the world without restriction, GW2 isn't that. If that's what the OP was talking about, then scratch GW2 off the list.

But if their idea of end game is the activity, commonly raiding and PvP, then they can do that in GW2 even if they are not at max level. They can join WvWvW at level 1, where they will be scaled upwards. On the PvE side, GW2 doesn't really have 40-man instanced raids, but like I said earlier they will face bosses in the outside world just the same thanks to DEs. There is no drastic change in playstyle at max level, unlike most MMOs.

  User Deleted
10/29/13 10:08:25 PM#77

Generally the leveling process acts as a gateway to your character class / role, and the world you are playing in.  Of course, some games have such simplistic mechanics, lore, and environments, that there's probably no reason for bothering with levels.  GW2 is a prime example.

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

10/29/13 10:16:27 PM#78
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by goldtoof
Nari
Still doesn't make them mmos.

It makes them popular games that mmorpg might as well cash in on for site traffick.

As if you are the authority.

I will take the industry, and MMORPG sites' opinions over yours. Thank you very much.

Wrong as usual. Pointing out that the editors here have decided to include it on their website does not mean it's an MMO. It means it's a really popular game that probably has a decent amount of overlap in playerbase.

 

Look at it this way, this website doesn't list starcraft 2 as being an MMO. What's the difference between LoL and SC2 that makes one an MMO and not the other?

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

10/29/13 11:00:11 PM#79

I think I would enjoy a game that was mostly about adventure and exploration and everything being badass from the start (enemies included). Not exactly what OP described, but could still work.

But I also recognize a lot of people don't want anything close to that. They want levels or progression of some kind from easy to hard. Maybe the human brain craves things like order, progression, strict rules, min/maxing and so on. I don't really know. For myself, I used to be into that. Now I'm kinda done with those mechanics and I just crave a cool experience first and foremost.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  DMKano

Elite Member

Joined: 6/17/11
Posts: 6490

10/29/13 11:02:40 PM#80
Originally posted by Boognishe
Originally posted by DMKano
Originally posted by feena750
EQ Next is doing this.  Allowing the whole world to be available to everyone, instead of segmented by levels.  I think eventually that is where MMORPGs will head.

Was this a new announcement I missed?

The game was clearly described as having Tiers of content, gated by gear, if you didn't have Tier 3 gear, you couldn't do Tier 3 content for example.

Look at this EQN whiteboard sketch showing Tiers (see that red T3 barrier)

Not sure if you're being sarcastic.. so..

 

I'm pretty sure this is tiers of land and not tiers of gear/progression..

Not sarcastic - the dev team already talked about tiered layers (not land) and needing tiered gear to get into a tiered zone.

 

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