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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Have MMOs Become Too Easy?

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140 posts found
  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

10/24/13 1:56:27 PM#121
Originally posted by The1ceQueen

I disagree somewhat. DAOC was not a gear grinding game and there were positionals you had to use for melee attacks, and casters were rooted while casting, and could be interrupted easily to where they couldn't  cast...Tanks actually had a purpose to shield healers and casters.

I never grinded for gear, we bought player made gear and it was the best you could get before the abysmal ToA came along. I quit after that, no idea how the game is now. I just know before ToA, the game was the best RvR/Pvp game I've ever played. No gear grind and each realm had a sense of pride never seen in today's mmorpg's.

You contradicted the part where you say I am wrong. You say the game wasn't  a gear grinding game and then stated that you didn't grind for it, you bought it from players. You choosing not to, doesn't mean it wasn't there, and it WAS the first to bring it to the genre, which was my point.

Also, the points you made about PvP did not negate what I mentioned. DaoC brought the individual PvP skill requirement to a minimum compared to previous games. AC1 was by far the highest as no game has ever come close to matching the length some duals lasted in that game, if the skill level was high enough with both people, someone would end up losing due to becoming to tired to continue after over 20 minutes of non-stop fighting.

The term face-rolling came out of DaoC for a reason...and your ending comment shows that no un-biased view can come out of you about that game since it took the developers to create your pride for you...only further proves the statement about how that game started the dumbing down process of the genre.

“I hope we shall crush...in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country." ~Thomes Jefferson

  BMBender

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 559

10/24/13 8:49:10 PM#122
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

I agree with what Chris said about MMO's not ever being all that difficult. However, they seem to generaly have taken a turn from "not all that difficult" to face-roll easy. That definately has diminished my desire to play them. In fact, I really don't anymore.

I have nothing against an easy game when I'm in a mood for that specificaly but I don't want EVERY part of EVERY game to be an easy game.....and therein lies the problem. We need game publishers to understand that they don't all need to follow one formula and target one demographic to make a successfull game. I want to be forced to think as much strategicaly and tacticaly as I do in a good RTS or FPS or even just old fashioned PnP game. I want to be forced to work with other players like in a good team sport. I want worlds that feel dangerous and challenging and exciting and rich...not just cut-out cardboard stages for an amusment park ride.

I have no objection to some games being designed as casual, mindless, easy fun......that's fine. However to have every game feel it has to go that route......that's a tragedy.

 

 

You have it backwards they are not targeting "one Demographic" they are targeting all of them.  That's why difficulty, immersion, group play and all the rest are set to the lowest common denominator.  Casual does not mean "likes easy" it just means "has little time".

 

My self I casually play hardcore when I can find it

  BMBender

Novice Member

Joined: 9/14/07
Posts: 559

10/24/13 8:56:57 PM#123
Originally posted by mmoguy43

I'm rarely challenged on "even conned" encounters in MMOs. I have to take on things that devs didn't intent for me to do just to feel like I'm playing on normal or at a pace/intensity that I don't get bored with. But it's not just MMOs, a lot of singleplayer games too are so easy on normal that I need to play on hard.

Would it be so bad if MMOs weren't so easy that any number of random ability presses would win the majority of fights. That you had to devise a plan for certain encounters that could be very different than others? It is as if combat has opened up so that victory and be achieved any number of ways. However because of that, no one way is satisfying and all victories are meaningless.

 

Heh it's not just random ability presses. There is a LOTRO you-tube video out there with some one in vender trash gear fighting even conned mobs with only the auto attack.  I'm certain it's not the only game in todays market that has a set of those type of  videos.

  Zinzan

Advanced Member

Joined: 3/03/06
Posts: 1371

10/25/13 12:33:16 AM#124
Originally posted by The1ceQueen
Originally posted by jtcgs

Anyone with a clear view of the past can see that the dumbing down of MMOs started with DAOC.

Its the game that started the "shiny" for PvP. Presented PvP in a way where it was zerg over skill, button mashing over style, invented the phrase "face-rolling". The game that introduced the gear over skill mindset. The first game to have people create a damage spreadsheet to measure if another player is good enough to join a team.

Its the very game WoW was built upon.

PvP rewards

more people = better

latest tear gear sets required, because without that extra .3% damage you aren't leet enough.

no point to PvP unless there is some kind of shiny reward for doing it.

 

Hell, you cant get any more dumbed down than a game designed by people saying that players are so stupid we have to separate the races so they wont get confused who the enemy is. And we have to create pride in a faction for the player. THAT is where the dumbing down began, no respect for the players.


I disagree somewhat. DAOC was not a gear grinding game and there were positionals you had to use for melee attacks, and casters were rooted while casting, and could be interrupted easily to where they couldn't  cast...Tanks actually had a purpose to shield healers and casters.

I never grinded for gear, we bought player made gear and it was the best you could get before the abysmal ToA came along. I quit after that, no idea how the game is now. I just know before ToA, the game was the best RvR/Pvp game I've ever played. No gear grind and each realm had a sense of pride never seen in today's mmorpg's.

Yep, clearly this guy never played classic, he probably never played SI either as spell calcs didn't become commonly used until late SI.

DAOC is the best pvp mmorpg ever made, even today, some, what, 11 years after its original release?

Expresso gave me a Hearthstone beta key.....I'm so happy :)

  Sincrow

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/13
Posts: 3

10/25/13 3:10:48 AM#125

Read the debate/article, but haven't read comments yet, writings this while the thoughts are fresh in mind :)

I'm not a hardcore gamer as such - my peak was in WoW 5ish years ago when we were one of the top raiding guilds on that server (no thanks to me) - but I have played RPG's, RTS's, hacknslash etc since the beginning of the 1990's :)

But that said, yes, many mmo-games feels too easy, too consequence-free (and too many currencies and buy-this-buy-that (but that's a whole other debate))...

After having played the all the Diablo games since D1, I've been thinking that mmo-games to use their lvl'ing system as a sort of inspiration...

What if, instead of - or maybe in addition to - having the standard "PvE", "PvP", PvPRP", PvERP" server, have "Casual Gaming" and "Ultra Hardcore Gaming" servers where there's and actual difference in difficulity (be that reduced hero dam/increased monster health/dam etc - think creative here) !!?

And games where you, like in EQ1(?) and EQ2(long ago - not sure abt this), loose experience, maybe even go down a lvl if you're that close to the limit, when you die...

Games where, IF you fail to keep your gear repaired and it goes to 0 durability, it's actually lost forever or when repaired it either needs rare mats and speciel blacksmith or it can be repaired for many gold AND will end up with reduced stats FOREVER! :)

But I would also like to see games w/o auction houses, w/o being able to trade gold or send it between accounts to prevent gold sellers and such.

Games where there might be cooldown to health pots, but not a "battle limit" so IF you've finally geared up and filled your stash with 2500 Mega Health Pots - you CAN go try out that dragon alone AND actually be able to finish it off IF you got the skill to do that half an hour battle or something like that... (after 2500 health pots your hero might need a break to go pee though... epic image comes to mind that the excitement of slaying the dragon is quickly overcome by the urge to pee behind that tree overthere :P )

Anyway, just some thoughts :)

  xAPOCx

Novice Member

Joined: 10/25/12
Posts: 894

10/25/13 7:28:55 AM#126
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by soltyspl

Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.

There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.

 

And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.

I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.

I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces. 

 This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"

 Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?

Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice.  Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies.  Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.

 

It complicates things a bit doesn't it.  You like puzzles but you also like cookies.  If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies.  So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies.  People really really like cookies.

 

The scenario I listed is more like an MMO.   If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.

Heres another thought. You can just to the puzzle because you like doin the puzzle. Everyone needs a reward for doin things these days. If you like cooking then go buy some damn cookies. Don't do something you could care less about because cookies are the reward. And why are you in a race to complete a puzzle?

 

This is one of the bigger problems with MMOs today. Things need to be attached to everything. prizes need to be awarded for everything. Even walking into a new zone rewards you with exp. Just do the puzzle because you like to do them. that is the reward. Not the damn cookie.

  keitholi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/04
Posts: 141

10/25/13 1:02:58 PM#127

I think Chris nails my personal beliefs in point # 3 and 4. Everyone can do everything and everyone can get the best armor/weapons for their respective class, with little to no trouble.

 

Remember Epic weapon quests in EQ? That is what is missing from games today. A real holy-shit-what-a-pain-in-the-ass-quest-this-is-but-I-have-this-amazing-sense-of-accomplishment-now type of quest. Everything seems so dumbed down and easy that after the initial 30 to 60 days, the game is essentially over because you already have all your best gear.

  keitholi

Novice Member

Joined: 8/22/04
Posts: 141

10/25/13 1:08:28 PM#128
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by whisperwynd
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by xAPOCx
Originally posted by soltyspl

Keep in mind thata lot of difficulty in the past was - in many cases - equivalent to mindless timesink and repeting the same stuff over and over again. This had absolutely nothing to do with difficulty. "Modern" games got rid of timesinks, while doing little about difficulty.

There are/were exceptions (not without their own shortcomings, e.g. EvE, pre-f2p Tera, Neocron), but few and far between.

 

And what is wrong with time sinks? farming mobs, harvesting, travel and the like. i dont understand why people keep referring to time sinks as bad things.

I agree. People seem to think that time sinks meant simply more time in game. That's not necessarily true. It just means that the things you're doing in game take longer. You don't blow through content like you do now.

I agree also. Giving the example of 2 picture puzzles (exactly the same picture). One of 500, the other of 2000 pieces. 

 This logic of timesinks lessened would be like saying "I like doing puzzles, however I can get the 500 piece one faster. Why would I want to labor for 'x' time longer doing the other"

 Question is, do I really like doing puzzles then or is it a timesink to pass the time?

Now take that scenario and imagine you are doing picture puzzles in a big auditorium where other people are also doing picture puzzles, and they also have the same choice.  Now add another factor, people who finish first get cookies.  Now add another factor where people ridicule you for your choice of puzzle.

 

It complicates things a bit doesn't it.  You like puzzles but you also like cookies.  If you do the puzzle that takes less time you can do more easier puzzles and get more cookies.  So you are having to make a choice between two things you like puzzles or cookies.  People really really like cookies.

 

The scenario I listed is more like an MMO.   If you are playing the same game solo you are not in a race, you don't have to worry about how people feel about your progress.

Heres another thought. You can just to the puzzle because you like doin the puzzle. Everyone needs a reward for doin things these days. If you like cooking then go buy some damn cookies. Don't do something you could care less about because cookies are the reward. And why are you in a race to complete a puzzle?

 

This is one of the bigger problems with MMOs today. Things need to be attached to everything. prizes need to be awarded for everything. Even walking into a new zone rewards you with exp. Just do the puzzle because you like to do them. that is the reward. Not the damn cookie.

 

Google "Skinners Box" when you have some free time. They have been grooming us on this system since the early days of MMO's.

 

  nirvanet

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/08
Posts: 83

10/25/13 1:11:39 PM#129

There is no more things to say :

Y E S

  masterbrood

Novice Member

Joined: 12/15/04
Posts: 62

10/26/13 2:45:45 AM#130
Originally posted by keitholi

I think Chris nails my personal beliefs in point # 3 and 4. Everyone can do everything and everyone can get the best armor/weapons for their respective class, with little to no trouble.

 

Remember Epic weapon quests in EQ? That is what is missing from games today. A real holy-shit-what-a-pain-in-the-ass-quest-this-is-but-I-have-this-amazing-sense-of-accomplishment-now type of quest. Everything seems so dumbed down and easy that after the initial 30 to 60 days, the game is essentially over because you already have all your best gear.

This is what I was getting at in my prior post.  Everything is handed to you, on a silver platter. 

-The only sure thing about the future is uncertainty

  LucasWS

Novice Member

Joined: 2/17/10
Posts: 4

10/26/13 10:25:02 AM#131

"so it’s time this industry re-targets actual MMO players instead of potential ones."

I had to reply for this one sentence because it really is the main reason most MMOs are disappointing, especially after the first couple months when the sheen wears off. For some reason the MMO developers are terrified of building a game that assumes you've already played one. Why? After 10 years of them I'm ready for a challenge. There are millions of gamers that have years logged into MMOs. Make a game for us please someone. 

 

  beel

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/05
Posts: 65

10/27/13 4:38:26 PM#132

imo, what's needed in the morg genre is more immersion and more of the game forcing players to interact and work together.  It does not have to be insanely difficult, more along the lines of each aspect of the game require player interaction, then you'll have people that keep playing the game.  As soon as there is no reason for people to interact in meaningful and sustatined ways, or for whatever reason they don't interact at all they start bailing out because the game loses its allure.

 

cheers for a game that tries to emmulate star wars galaxies :) (PRE NGE)

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  beel

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/05
Posts: 65

10/27/13 5:45:47 PM#133
seldom do i post twice same topic but wanted to let the community know this is one of the rare times i agree with like 90% of the posters
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  Sp00sh

Novice Member

Joined: 3/27/07
Posts: 50

Beer and Weed!

10/28/13 9:28:02 AM#134
I want to feel like I've accomplished something.  The only way to do this is make it difficult.  Give me a challenge.  Also...not just higher health points on mobs.  
  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

10/28/13 5:28:04 PM#135
Originally posted by Rayshe
I think that its less about them being made easy and more that we have gotten so much practice at these games that we have become good at them. the rule is simple, 10,000 hours of anything and you will become good at it. Now how many people on MMORPG.com feel that they have played 10,000 hours of mmo's combined. i mean i know damn well im in the catagory.

Haha, so false. If people would zerg through dungeons in the original WoW AOEing everything, no CC, no coordination, they would die. If people would try to kill 3 monsters at once in the original game when questing they would die. The game has become easier, it doesn't just seem easier they purposely dumbed it down. Monsters do not even assist when someone crowd controls in a dungeon any longer? I guess that doesn't matter since monsters are so easy they don't need to be CCd. What the ...! Just stupid. I quit WoW because of the zergfest no challenge crap ...

  Sweede

Novice Member

Joined: 5/01/04
Posts: 184

10/31/13 4:34:15 PM#136
Wow has made it easy yes, hell mobs that used to be flagged group are now soloable easy, seeing players at 90 with 934k self buffed is just silly.
 
Just finished my bst epic 1.0 in Everquest, at 61 with heal merc(damn op) it was fairly easy but still took a while, in wow you barely get the gear on before you find better.
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  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 7210

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

12/12/13 2:41:15 AM#137

Absolutely ridiculously easy,everyone should have played vanilla FFXI to know the TRUE meaning of a role playing game,not some linear treadmill of yellow markers and arrows or sparklies to follow around.ZERO hand holding just as a true role playing experience should be.

Every single one of these games have been designed as single player games adding in co op dungeon finders and the internet.

There is no excuse for tools that are not role playing experiences,either you are looking for a rpg or you are not,it should have nothing to do with not having time to play or MY play STYLE,it is rpg or not.

You watch any good Fantasy movie,the main character is not running around super fast because of time restrictions,they are wandering the lands meeting people,talking to people,learning the lore of the land.

Quests should NOT make you a more experienced Warrior or Mage,those should be ways to gain fame with that npc player,just like doing someone a favor in real life.Example if i was  an auto mechanic i wouldn't do a friend a favor then all of a sudden i gain experience as an auto mechanic,it is just dumb.It COULD make me a better mechanic if for example i was learning to work on a car i never worked on before but games are not developed in that mannerism.

Developers do this because they know a lot of players like hand holding and want to feel like they are progressing,so they give them a path to follow and make it easy to get xp.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
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  mysticaluna

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/11/11
Posts: 257

12/23/13 3:59:55 PM#138

Tldr: yes, games are way to easy. They need games with Vanguard's style and finesse that use new technology. They need games like Star wars galaxies using new technology, and they need games like Final Fantasy 11 online as well as original non-nerfed Everquest 1.

It is fun and awesome to have games like WoW for the casual crowd, but we need to have more difficulty challenging modes, outland solo questing is lame, they should have never taken out all of the group oriented elite mob quest encounters, they should have almost all of outland content as group encounters like in original vanilla EQ1/2 and WoW.  

I enjoyed questing more when there was a challenge, now I never do any of my solo quests at all, and the dungeon finder makes it way to easy and quick to level. 

We need more group oriented quests, the quests in the dungeon finder are a joke, they need more complicated complex quests that force players to explore and slow down, achievements for speed should be taken out, and they should punish players for skipping out on exploration and rushing through a dungeon. We need rewarding achievements for actually completing 100% of content instead of rushing power level through it. 

Getting rid of quests giving exp would not solve anything, dungeons are rush zerg fests of dead complete silence. All that does is force players to all dungeon for exp? So, even more zerg speed run clears? However, the easy quests need to be replaced with harder and more complicated worthwhile quests, and you need to have more in - depth Alternate Achievement Point/Talent point trees.  You should be a unique customized character, there should be tons of character hairstyles and tatoos etc decorations, you should be totally unique and have thousands of Talent/AA to choose from, with the ability for no one to be a copy cat clone cutter cookie character. No one's gear should all be the same, people should have unique legendary epic weapons and armor tailored to them and their unique choices of evil neutral good class racial stat selection, etc. 

  Nadia

Tipster

Joined: 7/26/03
Posts: 11811

12/23/13 4:03:59 PM#139

most mmo's leveling mechanics are targetted at being solo friendly

- that alone accounts for an easy / casual nature

  Gnarv

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/25/06
Posts: 29

12/26/13 7:48:33 AM#140
The MMO developers are selling out themselves, their own potential meassured in their creative act is being neglected in order to increase productivity. Truely fascinating and beautiful things are created not only with your hands and mind but also with your heart. 
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