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  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

10/26/13 3:55:43 PM#341
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot
 

This is the problem, MMO's went from evolving as games to chasing a market. First the solo player market, then console and now anyone on social media. Instead of evolving they have become tailored to fit the new market, first for gamers who did not want to play MMOs and now for people who are not gamers, but only occasionally dabble at games.

 

Chasing the market = give people what they wants, and entertain them.

May be they are not chasing YOUR market, but inherently there is nothing wrong with chasing a market (or even creating one).

Chasing the market as in chasing the market trends as in moving away from your base. So when you say chasing the market = giving people what they want, that's not totally honest. Somebody's always going to want some product. 

  aspekx

Novice Member

Joined: 12/24/05
Posts: 2197

 
OP  10/26/13 4:01:25 PM#342
Originally posted by daltanious
Yes, fractions of past is possible were better ... but not as a whole.

exactly. there were very good elements in many older games. everything was not perfect, that's simply not rational.

 

i was simply offering one of several reasons that i believe this conundrum exists.

 

 

"There are at least two kinds of games.
One could be called finite, the other infinite.
A finite game is played for the purpose of winning,
an infinite game for the purpose of continuing play."
Finite and Infinite Games, James Carse

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

10/26/13 4:09:34 PM#343
Originally posted by aspekx
Originally posted by daltanious
Yes, fractions of past is possible were better ... but not as a whole.

exactly. there were very good elements in many older games. everything was not perfect, that's simply not rational.

 

i was simply offering one of several reasons that i believe this conundrum exists.

I'm not sure what the conundrum is. The MMO industry has watered itself down in the search for a larger playerbase. You don't need to fabricate some explanation to it.

  LauraFrost

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/20/13
Posts: 96

10/27/13 4:19:40 AM#344
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Miblet
Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

 

That is the beauty of instanced gameplay. You don't have to wait, you don't have to count on respect of anyone, and you don't have to respect anyone.

Hence, i won't play open dungeons games with any camping.

 

 

That's the difference between the game YOU want to play and the game I want to play.


You want to play a game where everything is convenient. You have no problems by the fact that there are infinite versions of Emperor Crush being spawned for every little Timmy out there who wants to "play". One press of a button and you get your own private McDungeon for you and your friends to play in. Joy!

 

What I want to play, in the other hand, is to delve in a dangerous fantasy world. Where Emperor Crush is one and only one. Without this McDungeon bullshit or Lobby-Play. If I go to Castle Ravenloft I want to know there's only one Castle Ravenloft in this world... if there are 938938 Castle Ravenloft spawned for Jimmy and Timmy... then I'm playing a Lobby Game. Just a game... like Diablo 2.. a Pinneata of loot...

Don't get me wrong... It's cool, you can play these games (the whole market is saturared with them btw) GOOD FOR YOU!! ENOJY! GOOD FOR YOU! I am really happy for you... But I, in the other hand, I'm still waiting for that game where I can delve in a real dangerous world without "instances"... unfortunately, people like you don't want me to have fun I guess?

All what I want is one game... just one game. You can keep ALL your games with instances (there are PLENTY coming up by the way; so fear not)... Still, you really got the nerve to come here and argue against people who wants instance-free MMORPGs.

 

 

 

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

10/27/13 6:02:19 AM#345

You do see a tendency in those that think modern easyMMOs are fine to believe we want all MMO's to change to our way. Whatever our way may be as it varies from more old school, to more sandbox. Truth is we would be quite have with a couple of decent AAA releases, I don't want the genre going our way, quite happy for you content locusts to head in one direction while we head in another.

  Jjix

Novice Member

Joined: 2/16/12
Posts: 139

10/27/13 9:25:53 AM#346

A few points:

1) The argument that everyone thinks the past was better as they get older is a very compelling one. But then I considered that virtually every other game genre, in my mind, has improved over the years. FPSers are far better than they used to be. Single player RPGs like Skyrim or Mass Effect are incredible games that blow the past away and are only making the genre stronger than it ever was. Single player strategy games like Europa Universalis IV or even Civ V, for me, are vast improvements over what we used to have. Look, the fact is that mmorpgs are the ONLY form of video game I find to be going in the wrong direction. If I, or anyone else, were merely just becoming an old fart, then there would certainly be evidence of this kind of conservative thinking across the board. One is hard pressed to explain why the conviction that mmorpgs are worst today is confined to only that one genre, whereas the same person thinks games in every other genre have greatly improved over the years.

 

2) It cannot be said that any game or era of games was objectively superior to any other. It can also not be said that sex is objectively superior to eating tuna fish.

 

3) "Grind" is a state of gameplay that is boring and monotonous, but is nevertheless undertaken for the sake of future rewards. Speeding up the rate at which you achieves those rewards does not remove grind, "grind" is not defined by how quickly you achieve those rewards. As long as you are playing mostly for the future, and not actually enjoying the gameplay of the present moment, you are involved in grind. Many modern games speed up the leveling process, offer you more rewards, make the gameplay easier, but paradoxically end up becoming more grind fests because all you are ever doing is chasing the carrot and never enjoying the game. When you get the latest level or item or achievement, you just start grinding for the next thing, always chasing the future, never enjoying the moment. The old games weren't like this, at least not for me. It took a long time to achieve anything, but I enjoyed the time immensely.

 

4) If older mmorpg gamers generally are agreed that the earlier games were better, it is possible that this view is just the fault of them being older. But if that isn't the case, then there must have been something concrete in those old games that is missing from the new. People throw out little nuggets here and there in an effort to explain what is different, but the bottom line is something is different, and that something needs to be defined. I would define it simply as so: that the older games gave a unique experience that newer games do not, and that is the experience of complete immersion in a fantasy world, so complete that that world becomes more real to you than real life. I would argue that even younger gamers do not experience this in newer games, that the capacity for such immersion is not a matter of youth and the brain, but rather that the newer games are designed in such a way as to prevent deeper immersion in younger and older gamers alike. Whether one thinks that such immersion is desirable or not is another matter, but that the older games did a better job at delivering it is probably true UNLESS one could show that younger gamers are experiencing this same level of immersion in modern games. 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

10/27/13 11:53:22 AM#347
Originally posted by LauraFrost

All what I want is one game... just one game. You can keep ALL your games with instances (there are PLENTY coming up by the way; so fear not)... Still, you really got the nerve to come here and argue against people who wants instance-free MMORPGs.

 

 

 

Of course i do. It is an internet forum. You think only YOUR opinion has the right to be posted? Not only i think that is silly, i am posting to show that it is something that is not going to happen. Who says your preference should be talked about more just because it is catered to less?

So what if you just want one game? In fact, there is one. Vanguard. Now i bet you will rant on it, and want another. No one owes you a game that you like. You vote with your feet and your wallet just like everybody else, and the market decides.

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

10/27/13 11:55:11 AM#348
Originally posted by Scot

You do see a tendency in those that think modern easyMMOs are fine to believe we want all MMO's to change to our way. Whatever our way may be as it varies from more old school, to more sandbox. Truth is we would be quite have with a couple of decent AAA releases, I don't want the genre going our way, quite happy for you content locusts to head in one direction while we head in another.

No i don't believe that at all.

But i do believe you don't care about others' preferences, but your own. Why should you care about things that are not fun for you?

Oh, don't worry, i doubt the "genre" will go your way. More like it will go the way of so much change (MOBA, destiny ...) that it won't be the same genre anymore. Now THAT would be interesting (to me, of course).

 

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

10/27/13 11:40:59 PM#349
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

You do see a tendency in those that think modern easyMMOs are fine to believe we want all MMO's to change to our way. Whatever our way may be as it varies from more old school, to more sandbox. Truth is we would be quite have with a couple of decent AAA releases, I don't want the genre going our way, quite happy for you content locusts to head in one direction while we head in another.

No i don't believe that at all.

But i do believe you don't care about others' preferences, but your own. Why should you care about things that are not fun for you?

Oh, don't worry, i doubt the "genre" will go your way. More like it will go the way of so much change (MOBA, destiny ...) that it won't be the same genre anymore. Now THAT would be interesting (to me, of course).

 

Nariusseldon has always argued for easy convenient game play. What he types should not surprise anyone. And it's okay because that is what he likes. Everyone can like different things. Nar may be "casual" or prefer games without hardcore challenges but by his post count on here, he is a hard core forum goer! :)

I think we all should just respect each other and know everyone cares for different things. I just hope eventually the developers will realize you can not please everyone with one game and the market is saturated. It is time to start making games to focus on a particular audience.

  Scot

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5282

10/28/13 3:05:34 AM#350
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

You do see a tendency in those that think modern easyMMOs are fine to believe we want all MMO's to change to our way. Whatever our way may be as it varies from more old school, to more sandbox. Truth is we would be quite have with a couple of decent AAA releases, I don't want the genre going our way, quite happy for you content locusts to head in one direction while we head in another.

No i don't believe that at all.

But i do believe you don't care about others' preferences, but your own. Why should you care about things that are not fun for you?

Oh, don't worry, i doubt the "genre" will go your way. More like it will go the way of so much change (MOBA, destiny ...) that it won't be the same genre anymore. Now THAT would be interesting (to me, of course).

 

I do think you can get wrapped up in your idea of what fun is sometimes Nari. It is a big MMO market out there, there is room for all tastes, so why should I not be happy we could all get what we want?

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1437

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

10/28/13 11:58:01 AM#351


Originally posted by nariusseldon
...But i do believe you don't care about others' preferences, but your own. Why should you care about things that are not fun for you?

I don't think there is one poster on this site who isn't already aware of your disposition.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

10/28/13 12:01:02 PM#352
Originally posted by Arclan

 


Originally posted by nariusseldon
...But i do believe you don't care about others' preferences, but your own. Why should you care about things that are not fun for you?

 

I don't think there is one poster on this site who isn't already aware of your disposition.

And i know you are aware of my view. So?

  deniter

Elite Member

Joined: 9/06/08
Posts: 663

10/28/13 12:38:33 PM#353

If by change you mean the reason why older gamers don't like these new MMOs, it has got nothing to do with the change in design or gameplay.

We old timers (i'm 37) used to play a lot harder and challenging games than there is even in existence these days. A few months ago there was this post i read in Facebook:

http://www.p4rgaming.com/majority-of-gamers-today-cant-finish-level-1-in-super-mario-bros/

"This year, around 90 percent of the test participants were unable to complete the first level of Super Mario Brothers."

This was one of my first games i played when i was young, not even in my teens. The game was not too hard, i played it through many times for the second round, when it was harder. And today's gamers can't figure out even the basics?

"We watched the replay videos of how the gamers performed and saw that many did not understand simple concepts like bottomless pits. Around 70 percent died to the first Goomba. Another 50 percent died twice. Many thought the coins were enemies and tried to avoid them. Also, most of them did not use the run button. There were many other depressing things we noted but I can not remember them at the moment."

Some time ago a gaming company in my country was sold for 1.2 billion euros. They have two well known mobile games, and for that reason the japanese company was eager to pay 1.2 billion euros for it. I wouldn't play either of them even for free, let alone to pay something to DL it to my mobile phone or tablet; a device that reminds me of those Game & Watch Nintendo games we used to play in early 80'.

So, if i'm used to do stuff in intermediate or hard level of difficulty, don't blame me if i can't adapt to do it again in easy mode. It's not because i'm old, but because i find it boring and pointless. :)

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

10/28/13 1:27:11 PM#354
Originally posted by deniter

So, if i'm used to do stuff in intermediate or hard level of difficulty, don't blame me if i can't adapt to do it again in easy mode. It's not because i'm old, but because i find it boring and pointless. :)

"boring and pointless" is subjective. I was doing hard mode raid before, and i found it boring and pointless and learn and practice maneuvers for hours and hours just to beat an animated game character.

And what is difficult, as you have pointed out, is different from everyone. More importantly, what is an enjoyable challenge is personal. I am more than happy to play point & click adventures (like those Sherlock Holmes games) and figure out puzzles, but i adhore wasting time to learn dance patterns of boss fights.

 

  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1437

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

10/28/13 2:32:49 PM#355


Originally posted by deniter
If by change you mean the reason why older gamers don't like these new MMOs, it has got nothing to do with the change in design or gameplay.

We old timers (i'm 37) used to play a lot harder and challenging games than there is even in existence these days. A few months ago there was this post i read in Facebook:

http://www.p4rgaming.com/majority-of-gamers-today-cant-finish-level-1-in-super-mario-bros/

"This year, around 90 percent of the test participants were unable to complete the first level of Super Mario Brothers."

This was one of my first games i played when i was young, not even in my teens. The game was not too hard, i played it through many times for the second round, when it was harder. And today's gamers can't figure out even the basics?

"We watched the replay videos of how the gamers performed and saw that many did not understand simple concepts like bottomless pits. Around 70 percent died to the first Goomba. Another 50 percent died twice. Many thought the coins were enemies and tried to avoid them. Also, most of them did not use the run button. There were many other depressing things we noted but I can not remember them at the moment."

Some time ago a gaming company in my country was sold for 1.2 billion euros. They have two well known mobile games, and for that reason the japanese company was eager to pay 1.2 billion euros for it. I wouldn't play either of them even for free, let alone to pay something to DL it to my mobile phone or tablet; a device that reminds me of those Game & Watch Nintendo games we used to play in early 80'.

So, if i'm used to do stuff in intermediate or hard level of difficulty, don't blame me if i can't adapt to do it again in easy mode. It's not because i'm old, but because i find it boring and pointless. :)



Totally agreed. And excellent, if not funny, link. Cheers.

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  nottuned

Novice Member

Joined: 7/15/08
Posts: 95

10/28/13 3:31:57 PM#356
Originally posted by deniter

If by change you mean the reason why older gamers don't like these new MMOs, it has got nothing to do with the change in design or gameplay.

We old timers (i'm 37) used to play a lot harder and challenging games than there is even in existence these days. A few months ago there was this post i read in Facebook:

http://www.p4rgaming.com/majority-of-gamers-today-cant-finish-level-1-in-super-mario-bros/

"This year, around 90 percent of the test participants were unable to complete the first level of Super Mario Brothers."

This was one of my first games i played when i was young, not even in my teens. The game was not too hard, i played it through many times for the second round, when it was harder. And today's gamers can't figure out even the basics?

"We watched the replay videos of how the gamers performed and saw that many did not understand simple concepts like bottomless pits. Around 70 percent died to the first Goomba. Another 50 percent died twice. Many thought the coins were enemies and tried to avoid them. Also, most of them did not use the run button. There were many other depressing things we noted but I can not remember them at the moment."

Some time ago a gaming company in my country was sold for 1.2 billion euros. They have two well known mobile games, and for that reason the japanese company was eager to pay 1.2 billion euros for it. I wouldn't play either of them even for free, let alone to pay something to DL it to my mobile phone or tablet; a device that reminds me of those Game & Watch Nintendo games we used to play in early 80'.

So, if i'm used to do stuff in intermediate or hard level of difficulty, don't blame me if i can't adapt to do it again in easy mode. It's not because i'm old, but because i find it boring and pointless. :)

Sounds like they simply did not read the manual. The first time anyone play Mario I am sure did not do well, my guess the stats were the same if not worse "back in the day".

  darkedone02

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/17/06
Posts: 547

10/28/13 3:34:35 PM#357

I do enjoy gaming a lot more (and probably suffer some frusteration as well) on older games that I've played when I was a kid. The NES and SNES games was fun and I didn't suffer so much frusterations because the games that I played are enjoyable and I didn't take games so seriously as I did before, The games that i used to play alot was Actraiser, Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars, Super Mario World, Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island, and other games that I don't remember playing for the SNES... These games that I played was quite fun and I enjoyed every bit of it, even when I lose the game, it was not so much of a big deal.

When I grown older and the N64 and Playstation 1 arrived on my living room (may not possibly be on release day), games become a bit frusterating, I used to play Super Mario 64, Turok: Dinosaur Hunter, Turok: Seeds of Evil, Golden Eye 007, Perfect Dark, Jet Force Gemini, Tactic's Ogre, Legend of Zelda: Orcorena of Time, Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask, Shadow Man and other games that I played for the N64 was still fun, however I started getting frusterated over certain parts of games, like Golden Eye 007 when I continue to fail at this train mission on trying to save the hostage, half of the time the guy saw me before I enter the room and shot the hostage, resulting as a failure. Legend of Zelda: Majora's Mask got somewhat annoying because I be in a dungeon 3 days and a half and I got to quickly get back to town to stop the moon from going down, which is somewhat hard itself, there was this other game that I did not like failing over and over again is this one game where I suppose to destroy buildings before this truck with a huge nuke in the end rammed into a building and destroy the whole town, losing the game.

Now the PS1 is where I end up getting mad alot in certain games and lack certain enjoyment on certain games, sometimes pissed me so much that I end up breaking my PS1 and some disks of the games that I own and rented. although the PS1 is my most favorate console of all time, there are some games out there that pissed me off over and over and over and I pretty much gone and have a destructive rage... I also remember this is during my middle school years where I end up getting bullied alot and my tolerance has grown weaker, and my parents try to take action on the problems I have at school but it didn't do anything sadly, so I do believe my anger on both games and school life cause me to become more angry to make me become more destructive.

I love the PS1 games because it provided games that I enjoy the most, tons of rpg games such as legend of mana, shadow madness, Final Fantasy 7, 8, and 9, Tomba!, some Tome Raider games (don't remember which), Syphon Filter 2 and 3, Star Ocean: The Second Story, Saga Frontier, Resident Evil 2, Resident Evil 3: Nemesis, Resident Evil Survivor, Parasite Eve 1 and 2,  Namco Museum Volumn 3, Monkey Hero,  Legend of Legaia, The Legend of Dragoon... SO MANY freakin games for the PS1 that i love and hate... the PS1 is my most loved console next to the PS2.

I loved playing video games, but i just don't like getting mad over them on challenges that I cannot complete, when it gets too hard for me, or I lost because of a bad strategy I did, I lose because of some bullshit like bugs and bad mechanics, and when I end up getting pissed off too many times, I end up being destructive and break the game disk or something, I won't just stop and calm down, I'm more determined to get pass the level, part, or whatever that is pissing me off so I don't have to deal with it later, and get frusterated with it again, and once I beaten that level, gotten pass that part, or whatever that severly blocked my path, I was reliefed, and most of my frustrations just pretty much dropped, sometimes to say with excitement and determination "YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!! FUCKING FINALLY! SWEET JESUS!"

Final Fantasy 8 is a good example of the frusteration that I had to deal with, Final Fantasy 7 rarely get me mad, but Final Fantasy 8... holy hell it pissed me off... When I try to go after king cactuar, and end up always having to revive all my heros because they are so weak, and pretty much cannon-folder, I tend to cast lots of revives anyways and hope that my main character don't fall as he is way more stronger then all, I didn't want to omega weapon because I lost to him way too much, and it will take forever to beat the boss, I believe it took me at least 5-7 hours straight trying to beat the final boss for me. When I look at it now, I know the reason why I was failing alot, is because I never really did ventured out and kill mobs to get weapon parts for all my characters, and other things... i was mostly focused on farming to level all my character to max level and unlocking things, then farming mats... not only that, I love and hate the card battle in the game, and that probably also what drove me mad is when i lose and probably have one of my most love card taken away I do believe. I remember I got so mad at the game that I broke the 3rd disk of the game, and it was a rental game... I think i  was grounded that time, and my parent threaten to sell my PS1 for good if I do it again... which I really dislike, and if they did that, I will be one boring person... gaming is my life, gaming is my soul, take that away, and I'm nothing, I am dull, I am bored, and I have no motivation to do anything, I just those people who rather sleep each and every day away, wasting my entire life, doing nothing entertaining, nothing fun, nothing out there that i want to grasp and enjoy...

 

To anyone curious about the age I started gaming, I think I was 4 years old when I got hold of the NES, 5-6 for the SNES and Genesis, 7-9 when I had the N64, 10-11 when I had the PS1, 12-14 when I had the PS2.

I was born in September 24, 1988... so do the math, i could be wrong on the years that I played the consoles because I don't remember the release dates of them, only the age that i played them.

 

 

  Torik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2326

10/28/13 4:16:26 PM#358
Originally posted by deniter

"We watched the replay videos of how the gamers performed and saw that many did not understand simple concepts like bottomless pits. Around 70 percent died to the first Goomba. Another 50 percent died twice. Many thought the coins were enemies and tried to avoid them. Also, most of them did not use the run button. There were many other depressing things we noted but I can not remember them at the moment."

I vaguely remember playing Super Mario back in the 90s for the first time and I did all those things until someone explained to me how the game was played.  Also the controller confused me since up to that point I was used to joysticks as my controller.

I can definetly see how people not used to that style of platformer games would have trouble when playing the game for the first time.  All this proves is that they chose normal people for this test and not experienced platform gamers.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2034

10/28/13 4:54:58 PM#359
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by deniter

"We watched the replay videos of how the gamers performed and saw that many did not understand simple concepts like bottomless pits. Around 70 percent died to the first Goomba. Another 50 percent died twice. Many thought the coins were enemies and tried to avoid them. Also, most of them did not use the run button. There were many other depressing things we noted but I can not remember them at the moment."

I vaguely remember playing Super Mario back in the 90s for the first time and I did all those things until someone explained to me how the game was played.  Also the controller confused me since up to that point I was used to joysticks as my controller.

I can definetly see how people not used to that style of platformer games would have trouble when playing the game for the first time.  All this proves is that they chose normal people for this test and not experienced platform gamers.

Yeah but controllers have gotten MORE complex since then.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 20181

10/28/13 7:17:49 PM#360
Originally posted by Torik

I can definetly see how people not used to that style of platformer games would have trouble when playing the game for the first time.  All this proves is that they chose normal people for this test and not experienced platform gamers.

It is not as if having the hand-eye co-ordination or train to play an ancient platform game is anything important.

Personally i will admit i probably can't play such a game well, and i don't think it is worth my time to train for it. It is not like playing an ancient mario game is as important as learning math or riding a bicycle.

 

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