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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why 'Give players tools to create!' doesn't work

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140 posts found
  Jemcrystal

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 1346

Let em put a slave ring thru u're nose u're prob not going to like where they're taking you. Think.

10/26/13 10:24:43 AM#41

Minecraft just got another update!  I'm waiting on Everquest Next.  Neverwinter had a good idea but put morons in charge of it so it failed.

 

Creation in mmo's rock all.  Power to the people!

http://s25.postimg.org/e4cys86xb/gw004.jpg

  Braindome

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/06/11
Posts: 572

10/26/13 10:51:36 AM#42

The creative features need to fit within the bounds of the game and the universe. These are the designs that usually work. Neverwinter proved that a "tacked on" creative mode is just a joke and at best a novelty and offers no real addition to the game other than that.

A creative mode should be used to add to the experience of the game and that will make it infinitely more successful, otherwise it will add nothing in the long term to sustain players interest.

I can understand the direction of this thread and I agree, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink so to speak. It is a good idea on paper but it is up to the developer initially to have a good design and implement the resources in an intelligent way, otherwise it's just a waste of time and nothing more than a novelty. I hate that player creativity is getting whored out as a slogan myself as at its core it is indeed a great asset to gaming though i'm sure the industry will beat it in till it is a husk of its former.

Players shouldn't waste their time on half conceived player "tools" it is a waste of time and energy for all involved and a concept that will overall drain creativity instead of creating it which is why it was created in the first place, but hey if we let big companies see $$$ what is to stop them?

Player tools = great idea, but the majority of the time poor implementation.

  Thupli

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/25/11
Posts: 408

10/26/13 10:55:39 AM#43
Having a paired set of games like Landmark + eqn is great. Use one to see what people make and use it as a filter for what to allow into eqn, the actual game where the immersion is.
  Karahandras

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/11/08
Posts: 1667

All it takes for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing

10/26/13 11:03:19 AM#44
Can you give any actual examples of where it 'doesn't work'?
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  10/26/13 2:19:07 PM#45

I'm told that minecraft counters my opinion which doesn't make sense. Especially since those posters have asserted (violently) that 'Minecraft / LoL / D3 isn't an MMO!' in other threads.

EVE makes sense yes which is why I referenced it.

Just watch the link and tell me how many games will have that many players dedicate over 400 hours a week in out-of-game time to sustain a game design?

That 400 hours is also voluntary.

 

I'm not bashing GSOL nor am I saying EVE is bad. All I'm saying is that the amount of effort required is not something that posters around here who just say 'give players tools!' would realize.

Yes virginia, I too wish 'YES WE CAN' slogans cure all ills.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/26/13 2:30:37 PM#46
Originally posted by jpnz

Just watch the link and tell me how many games will have that many players dedicate over 400 hours a week in out-of-game time to sustain a game design?

It's not how many hours each person spends, it's how much that dedication adds to the game as a whole.

Even the most complex game needs to still offer some sort of enjoyable experience to a casual visitor.  But at the same time, the complexity of a game doesn't have to stop at the shortest attention span. 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  10/26/13 3:28:20 PM#47
Originally posted by maplestone
 

It's not how many hours each person spends, it's how much that dedication adds to the game as a whole.

Even the most complex game needs to still offer some sort of enjoyable experience to a casual visitor.  But at the same time, the complexity of a game doesn't have to stop at the shortest attention span. 

A game design that requires your playerbase to put in 1600+ hours a month outside the game is probably a niche one (an extremely small niche) and not something your average poster on this site would realize.

Does it have to be 'casual friendly'? Maybe.

Does it have to be 'hardcore put in more hours than a person would spend at work?' Maybe.

But a game design catering to that hardcore? Ehh..... YMMV but my guess is, 'good luck cause you'll need it and lots of it'.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1246

10/26/13 3:48:55 PM#48
Originally posted by jpnz
 

A game design that requires your playerbase to put in 1600+ hours a month outside the game is probably a niche one (an extremely small niche) and not something your average poster on this site would realize.

Does it have to be 'casual friendly'? Maybe.

Does it have to be 'hardcore put in more hours than a person would spend at work?' Maybe.

But a game design catering to that hardcore? Ehh..... YMMV but my guess is, 'good luck cause you'll need it and lots of it'.

You probably need a few "uber-hardcore people who want a second job" people. There are certainly people like that leading the alliances in EVE, but no one is forcing them to do that. There are people who like  to do that (even though it isn't really something I would want).  Those leaders allow the majority of the players to get that cool feeling of huge alliance warfare with a much smaller time investment. It's a little like the F2P  "whale" concept only with time instead of money.

 

It's probably hard for the guy with 2 gaming  hours a week  to get the most out of these kind of games but you don't *need* to spend 10 hours a day on them to enjoy them either as long as a couple of people in your group are willing to put in that crazy time investment. Of course these games also  usually offer other ways to contribute as well other than being part of one of the very hardcore alliances.

 

 

 

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/26/13 4:41:25 PM#49
Originally posted by jpnz

A game design that requires your playerbase to put in 1600+ hours a month outside the game is probably a niche one (an extremely small niche) and not something your average poster on this site would realize.

You seem to be equating the concept of a person finding 1600+ hours of effort productive with the concept of everyone being required to put in that much effort.    Is that your intention?

  waynejr2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/12/11
Posts: 3735

RIP City of Heroes!

10/26/13 4:58:23 PM#50
Originally posted by Beatnik59

City of Heroes had a lot of ways for players to create things:

1)  The base editor allowed players to create hotels, city blocks, spaceships, lairs, arcane sanctuaries, parks and so on.  I can't tell you how involved some of the designs were.

2)  The costume creator was a wonderful tool to create robots, soldiers, superheroes, beastmen, ghosts and so many other personalities.

3)  The Architect Entertainment system was loved by roleplayers and average players alike to create story arcs that the regular lore didn't support.

In fact, at the end, I'd have to say that City of Heroes was the most "creator friendly" retail MMO from a major publisher.  And it worked, splendidly.

It ruined the world gameplay of city of heroes for me. 

  PsychoticHamster

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/01/12
Posts: 97

10/26/13 5:07:49 PM#51
If its done right, then its a great tool. But sometimes I feel like developers create these tools with the mentality that they build 75% of the game and the community will take care of the rest. This is one of my greatest fears for EQN because when they talk about landmark it almost sounds as if they're outsourcing development to the fans.

  Isawa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/20/08
Posts: 1066

10/26/13 5:18:23 PM#52

You don't even explain your thought process behind "why 'give players tools to create!' doesn't work". What you do is provide a couple examples of where it does work, poorly expressed thoughts on the auto industry, link a video (where the argument apparently is), make some comments after the link - without explaining anything within the video.

Extremely scattered thought process, allows one to argue anything anyone says, because when it comes down to it, you really don't say anything. Are we supposed to watch the following 2 hours of that video? You don't even say what we should be looking for in that clip. "I've been told that what was shown" makes it appear like you don't even know what was discussed in the video.

Learn to make valid arguments for once, and everyone's responses won't be as scattered as your thoughts slapped onto mmorpg.com

  MindTrigger

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/19/07
Posts: 2628

10/26/13 5:24:00 PM#53
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Raven322
 

So no real reason at all then.

There's nothing factual about this thread. You've provided a single game as reference. Numerous others have been presented in a counter. You've ignored them.

What does marketing speak mean in reality? It means whatever the listener desires to hear. you will not change it. Present all the facts that you want, nobody will listen, because they hear what they want to. Even should you be proven right in the long run, no-one will credit you for it.

There's no reality check here to be had.

This post makes some pretty weird conflicting logic and then goes into some sort of self-projection of some kind.

Fascinating in a funny (but a bit sad) kind of way.

Second line says 'nothing factual' and then accepts there is a 'reference' to my original post. Huh?

Then the 3rd paragraph is some sort of weird statement about 'no one will hear you anyways' or something.

 

I am totally fine that no one is disputing my original statement though. :)

Really, because I'm still trying to find some logic in your OP.   No one even knows what you are talking about because your post is so non-specific in scope. We don't even know where to start dismantling you.  Now, take the time to write a well thought out post specifically about what you mean, with current and past examples, and perhaps you will get some good replies.  I don't have time to play the round and round argument with your blanket generalization of a post.

A sure sign that you are in an old, dying paradigm/mindset, is when you are scared of new ideas and new technology. Don't feel bad. The world is moving on without you, and you are welcome to yell "Get Off My Lawn!" all you want while it happens. You cannot, however, stop an idea whose time has come.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/26/13 5:39:42 PM#54
What's the "UO AH"? 
  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  10/26/13 5:44:19 PM#55
Originally posted by Holophonist
What's the "UO AH"? 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6003112

Not my definition as I never played UO.

 

Like I said, this post was a reality check on what the whole 'give players tools' slogan means.

1600+ hours of out of game time.

If someone thinks that can work as a game design, great. Just don't be surprised if there is a 'less than 1% success rate on that'.

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/26/13 5:52:17 PM#56
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Holophonist
What's the "UO AH"? 

http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/post/6003112

Not my definition as I never played UO.

 

Like I said, this post was a reality check on what the whole 'give players tools' slogan means.

1600+ hours of out of game time.

If someone thinks that can work as a game design, great. Just don't be surprised if there is a 'less than 1% success rate on that'.

I guess you mean UO's vendor system. There was no auction house. You had to go to a vendor (NPC, either player owned or just in town) and actually buy the item.

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/26/13 6:08:40 PM#57

This argument isn't really much of an argument is the problem.

 

Modding communities operate exactly on the principle of making and changing things in their games of choice so that they can enjoy them, if you look at the numbers for downloads from sites like Nexus, there's millions (and that's establishing it as an understatement, as the total downloads for Skyrim are 364.11 million as of writing this).

 

Or another example, Neverwinter Nights. That game's toolkit and the mantra of creating your own experience with the toolkit has established tons of psuedo-MMOs and other servers that still run today.

 

It's a core driving value of Maxis games. When you're able to build your own city, people, or worlds it means there's a lot of play devoted to the creation process itself.

 

And that's perhaps a more valuable point. How powerful the creation tools are, how well they play into the game, and how approachable they are.

 

The reason many 'fail' is because their toolkits aren't particularly good. Be it not powerful enough, not flexible enough, or something more technical such as the toolkits being directly integrated in the normal play, and consequently stunted by the other game mechanics.

 

Even Minecraft witnesses this factor to some degree. That's generally why you have a creative mode retained in the game where you don't have to worry about enemies sabotaging your creative efforts and you have things like fly mode to let you navigate your construction easier.

 

Not going to call Second Life wildly successful, but it's an example of a game world that's still standing, based almost entirely off things people have modeled, scripted, and implemented into the game world scaling from simply a cosmetic texture up to an entire system to play RPGs, shooters, or something else.

 

Allowing player creation does work. We know because for a long time it has worked. Just like any other type of game, there are good and bad titles and good and bad implementations. Pointing to something that failed does not invalidate something that succeeded.

 

Arguing that the chances are low for success is again a point of argument that's not much more that an empty statistic. Do you even know how many games are released in the course of one year?

 

Sadly there' no particularly decent aggregate statistic I can share offhand. Point is though that it's a damn lot. More than you as a consumer will ever be aware of or consequently buy. The amount of games and companies that fail in the industry is huge, just as any other industry established largely on what's considered an expendable good.

 

So veering away from one game concept because you see a 'chance of success' that's low, doesn't really mean much. Fact is no matter what you make, your chances of success are probably low unless you build a halfway decent game, market extensively, and/or get lucky.

 

Games that integrate player generated content are by no means bad games. The biggest thing a developer should remember I'd say really would be "don't use player content as a substitute". By all means you can let someone practically rebuild the entire game, but you still have to have a core set of game mechanics and functions to draw people to participate.

 

For example, that was perhaps the weakest point for Spore. Powerful tools and a nigh endless sea of player created content, but the actual play when you were done editing and were just playing the game, was generally just too shallow. It had snippets from a bunch of types of games that you'd rush through, and then you're left to just mess about with the galaxy turning entire planets into silly putty without any purpose.

 

Galactic Adventures went a good way as far as integrating exploration and the ability to add new narratives, but everything being encapsulated in a one-off instance-like expedition meant it didn't really tie well into the rest of the game or bear any impact upon the galaxy, so more or less it became a gear collection game.

 

That kind of situation needs to be avoided with such tools. You need to make sure and that the toolkit isn't mistaken as the game itself, even if it's immensely fun to play with.

 

It's not really an exception, but the caveat would be games like Minecraft and the upcoming Landmark, where object creation is a real time endeavor. When creation is integrated with the game so the tools are used as an active part of play, it gives some new opportunities as well as drawbacks though too. It's a decision that can impact the manner in which one plays a game immensely, as creation becomes a viable tool for conflict and other things.

 

So to recap, creatively driven games do have a place just like any other game. They have successfully existed for quite a while. And the options a toolkit can offer makes it a valuable asset to consider.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

  Zorgo

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2212

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/26/13 6:18:38 PM#58

/thread

 

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

 
OP  10/26/13 6:22:54 PM#59

I do find it interesting that the counter example are all 'single' player games; except EVE which I specifically brought up.

Minecraft, NWN1, Terraria etc.

Mainly by the same posters who insists Minecraft/Terraria/Simcity etc are not MMOs. :)

 

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  Deivos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/14/04
Posts: 1703

Iarð skal rifna, ok upphiminn.

10/26/13 6:26:15 PM#60

Aside from Spore, those are all multiplayer dude.

 

And as much as I rail that MMOs need to adopt their own platform specific mechanics, that doesn't mean they do so to the exclusion of good mechanics from other games, especially if that's more a genre issue.

 

I could have talked about Wurm, CoH, NWO, Love, Deepworld, Salem, Ryzom, or some other MMO as an example, but in general the awareness people have over the other titles is greater, and consequently they make better examples.

As the size of an explosion increases, the number of social situations it is incapable of solving approaches zero. - Vaarsuvius

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