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  Arclan

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/29/07
Posts: 1372

"Ideas are worthless. The only currency that holds any weight is the ability and drive to execute."

10/25/13 1:11:03 PM#321


Originally posted by Scot
...in 2003 we were not talking about MMO's being doomed. But now we have seen what that doom has wrought, MMO's are different games now. If you look at other genres changes have occurred, some which are similar but not to the same extent. FPS is still FPS even if they expect you to sit through huge cut scenes, Driving has hardly changed, Stratergy the same. Gaming has seen a move to easymode, but its not the same across the board, MMOs have been made caricatures of what they once were.

Not that everything today is bad, we have innovative combat systems, voice talent and MMOs caught up with solo games graphic wise. But when you add it all up we have shallow easymode MMOs compared to what we once had.


Exactly right; in 2003 no one was tossing around doom prophecies, but today they are quite common. Yes you are aboslutely correct that todays games are shallow easymode games. They are meant to milk as much of your money as possible while the game is still fresh (which lasts about two weeks)

Luckily, i don't need you to like me to enjoy video games. -nariusseldon.
In F2P I think it's more a case of the game's trying to play the player's. -laserit
video game company layoffs are twice the national average.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/25/13 2:34:06 PM#322
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

  Signex

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/06/07
Posts: 70

10/25/13 2:47:18 PM#323

I think cause they we're still original, and now their all a-like.

 

World of Warcraft was my first MMO, and still my number one MMO to date.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/25/13 3:04:36 PM#324
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

This is true.

Opinions can absolutely be wrong.  What someone thinks is very often wrong.  I think the moon is made out of cheese.  This opinion is wrong.  Opinions regarding factual issues, that is subjects that can be objectively verified can be wrong.  Very often opinions are not subjective, they are statements regarding factual issues, and there data can be wrong.  If I had said the moon is made out of cheese that would be an incorrect factual statement, however I stated I think the moon is made out of cheese giving my opinion about a factual state, the fact is wrong, therefore the opinion is wrong.

Now an opinion about a subjective state cannot be wrong.  I think GW2 is boring (don't get up in arms, it's just an example), this type of opinion is totally subjective, it can't be wrong.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

10/25/13 3:49:16 PM#325
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

This is true.

Opinions can absolutely be wrong.  What someone thinks is very often wrong.  I think the moon is made out of cheese.  This opinion is wrong.  Opinions regarding factual issues, that is subjects that can be objectively verified can be wrong.  Very often opinions are not subjective, they are statements regarding factual issues, and there data can be wrong.  If I had said the moon is made out of cheese that would be an incorrect factual statement, however I stated I think the moon is made out of cheese giving my opinion about a factual state, the fact is wrong, therefore the opinion is wrong.

Now an opinion about a subjective state cannot be wrong.  I think GW2 is boring (don't get up in arms, it's just an example), this type of opinion is totally subjective, it can't be wrong.

There is a difference between an opinion and an assertion of fact. Opinions are ALWAYS subjective. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. "The moon is made of green cheese" - is NOT actualy an opinion. It's an assertion of fact.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/25/13 3:53:34 PM#326
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

This is true.

Opinions can absolutely be wrong.  What someone thinks is very often wrong.  I think the moon is made out of cheese.  This opinion is wrong.  Opinions regarding factual issues, that is subjects that can be objectively verified can be wrong.  Very often opinions are not subjective, they are statements regarding factual issues, and there data can be wrong.  If I had said the moon is made out of cheese that would be an incorrect factual statement, however I stated I think the moon is made out of cheese giving my opinion about a factual state, the fact is wrong, therefore the opinion is wrong.

Now an opinion about a subjective state cannot be wrong.  I think GW2 is boring (don't get up in arms, it's just an example), this type of opinion is totally subjective, it can't be wrong.

There is a difference between an opinion and an assertion of fact. Opinions are ALWAYS subjective. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. "The moon is made of green cheese" - is NOT actualy an opinion. It's an assertion of fact.

What about before we could prove that the moon was not made of cheese you said "I think the moon is made out of cheese." That would have been considered an opinion and it would be wrong. 

  GrumpyMel2

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/24/09
Posts: 1824

10/25/13 4:00:14 PM#327
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

This is true.

Opinions can absolutely be wrong.  What someone thinks is very often wrong.  I think the moon is made out of cheese.  This opinion is wrong.  Opinions regarding factual issues, that is subjects that can be objectively verified can be wrong.  Very often opinions are not subjective, they are statements regarding factual issues, and there data can be wrong.  If I had said the moon is made out of cheese that would be an incorrect factual statement, however I stated I think the moon is made out of cheese giving my opinion about a factual state, the fact is wrong, therefore the opinion is wrong.

Now an opinion about a subjective state cannot be wrong.  I think GW2 is boring (don't get up in arms, it's just an example), this type of opinion is totally subjective, it can't be wrong.

Again being pedantic but deconstruct the sentance. "I THINK the moon is made of green cheese".  You've just told me something that is factualy accurate ....unless you are lying about what you think. Your belief about the moon has no basis in reality....it's ignorant or ill-informed....but it IS your belief. "The moon is made of green cheese" - This on the other hand is NOT an opinion but an assertion of fact.....and because it is not a statement of thought or belief but an assertion of objective fact... "The moon IS..."  can be factualy wrong.

 

 

 

 

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/25/13 4:05:10 PM#328
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

This is true.

Opinions can absolutely be wrong.  What someone thinks is very often wrong.  I think the moon is made out of cheese.  This opinion is wrong.  Opinions regarding factual issues, that is subjects that can be objectively verified can be wrong.  Very often opinions are not subjective, they are statements regarding factual issues, and there data can be wrong.  If I had said the moon is made out of cheese that would be an incorrect factual statement, however I stated I think the moon is made out of cheese giving my opinion about a factual state, the fact is wrong, therefore the opinion is wrong.

Now an opinion about a subjective state cannot be wrong.  I think GW2 is boring (don't get up in arms, it's just an example), this type of opinion is totally subjective, it can't be wrong.

Again being pedantic but deconstruct the sentance. "I THINK the moon is made of green cheese".  You've just told me something that is factualy accurate ....unless you are lying about what you think. Your belief about the moon has no basis in reality....it's ignorant or ill-informed....but it IS your belief. "The moon is made of green cheese" - This on the other hand is NOT an opinion but an assertion of fact.....and because it is not a statement of thought or belief but an assertion of objective fact... "The moon IS..."  can be factualy wrong.

You have just pedantic'd my ass off. You are technically correct, the best kind of correct.

 

Let me change it to "The moon is made of cheese." That would've been an opinion.

  VengeSunsoar

Elite Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4834

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/25/13 4:25:03 PM#329
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2

Actualy being pedantic for a moment, Opinions can't be wrong either. They can be ill-informed but not wrong. Since an opinion is merely a statement of what an individual thinks. Opinions are entirely subjective and unless the individual is lying then they are objectively accurate assertions of the individuals state of belief. Example "I think Franks Dinner is terrible".... That's an accurate assertion of the individuals belief. It's an objectively true statement whether I've been to Franks Dinner (informed opinion) or not (uninformed opinion). An assertion of fact, however, can be correct or incorrect as it is objectively measurable. Example - Franks Dinner is terrible because it doesn't serve seafood.

Both informed opinions and informed preferences are more USEFULL then uninformed ones but they are never actualy wrong. For example, it wouldn't be terribly usefull in judging how well a film critics tastes matched up with yours if he said he disliked horror movies but had only ever seen one horror movie. However his preference is factualy accurate - he does dislike them - until some experience happens (e.g. seeing a good horror movie) to change or modify that preference.

An opinion is a view. A view can be wrong. It could be your opinion that the earth is flat. But that opinion would be wrong.

This is true.

Opinions can absolutely be wrong.  What someone thinks is very often wrong.  I think the moon is made out of cheese.  This opinion is wrong.  Opinions regarding factual issues, that is subjects that can be objectively verified can be wrong.  Very often opinions are not subjective, they are statements regarding factual issues, and there data can be wrong.  If I had said the moon is made out of cheese that would be an incorrect factual statement, however I stated I think the moon is made out of cheese giving my opinion about a factual state, the fact is wrong, therefore the opinion is wrong.

Now an opinion about a subjective state cannot be wrong.  I think GW2 is boring (don't get up in arms, it's just an example), this type of opinion is totally subjective, it can't be wrong.

Again being pedantic but deconstruct the sentance. "I THINK the moon is made of green cheese".  You've just told me something that is factualy accurate ....unless you are lying about what you think. Your belief about the moon has no basis in reality....it's ignorant or ill-informed....but it IS your belief. "The moon is made of green cheese" - This on the other hand is NOT an opinion but an assertion of fact.....and because it is not a statement of thought or belief but an assertion of objective fact... "The moon IS..."  can be factualy wrong.

 

 

 

 Nm just isn't worth the effort anymore.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Miblet

Novice Member

Joined: 8/19/10
Posts: 333

10/25/13 4:38:36 PM#330
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Scot

Not that everything today is bad, we have innovative combat systems, voice talent and MMOs caught up with solo games graphic wise. But when you add it all up we have shallow easymode MMOs compared to what we once had.

 

You have a weird definition of "shallow easymode".

To me, single mob camp, a large amount of EQ gameplay, *is* shadow easymode.

Why?

shadow - you are killing the same mob with the same tactic every time. That is repetitive, and shallow with no variation and no thinking needed.

easy - well .. you never fail. Usually the mob die within second of spawning. And if there are other groups, they will "help" and make it even more trivial.

And the old MMOs have the added downside of downtime, and very boring because you spent most of the time chatting and not playing a game.

Now my comments are directed at pve only.

To be fair while there were easy single pull camps in the 'good old days' of EQ (and there are more of them now I'll grant you), they usually didn't reward the player much for being there.  The most rewarding areas were usually those with mob splitting or crowd control required (and whilst yes when things were going well it was repetitive, the real show began when things didn't go well - when a pull came with adds, roamers or a failed attempt at crowd control and the choices you made with your limited abilities shone through).  Higher risk for more reward.  Modern MMOs tend to make it pretty hard to die at all in PvE unless at the very highest tier of content (and very few play that, despite every one on every forum claiming they do).

As for other groups helping...most groups gave each other some room, so a potential wipe wouldn't affect them and if both groups fight over content neither walks away happy.  There was more chance of a nearby group hindering than helping.  Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

The downtime in the old games was not as harsh as people like to make out.  If you adjusted and managed your rescources downtime for most classes was no worse than some modern MMOs...however I agree if you were awful at resource management the game wouldn't pat your head condescendingly while throwing more resources at you.  Besides, chatting was a part of the game that I enjoyed (and quite a few others too, though I admit many today seem to abhor social interactions whilst screaming about the loss of community).

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

10/25/13 7:23:11 PM#331
Originally posted by Miblet
Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

 

That is the beauty of instanced gameplay. You don't have to wait, you don't have to count on respect of anyone, and you don't have to respect anyone.

Hence, i won't play open dungeons games with any camping.

 

  Arglebargle

Elite Member

Joined: 6/13/07
Posts: 1086

10/25/13 10:11:00 PM#332
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Miblet
Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

 

That is the beauty of instanced gameplay. You don't have to wait, you don't have to count on respect of anyone, and you don't have to respect anyone.

Hence, i won't play open dungeons games with any camping.

 

While some may not care for instances in games, it was a solution to these sorts of problems.   There  were numerous camping problems and I am sure that developers everywhere would love to hear of other, achieveable, solutions.

 

It was one of the many issues with the 'old school' games that lead to me avoiding them.   The bad outweighed the good imo.

If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

  NaughtyP

Novice Member

Joined: 12/02/11
Posts: 795

10/25/13 10:34:51 PM#333
Originally posted by Arglebargle
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Miblet
Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

 

That is the beauty of instanced gameplay. You don't have to wait, you don't have to count on respect of anyone, and you don't have to respect anyone.

Hence, i won't play open dungeons games with any camping.

 

While some may not care for instances in games, it was a solution to these sorts of problems.   There  were numerous camping problems and I am sure that developers everywhere would love to hear of other, achieveable, solutions.

 

It was one of the many issues with the 'old school' games that lead to me avoiding them.   The bad outweighed the good imo.

The one thing that hasn't changed in 10-15 years is gamers' obsession with having exclusive or rare loot. That's one thing I would have hoped would have disappeared (or at least decreased) by now. You wouldn't need to worry about instancing, spawn camping or general asshattery if a game had more to offer than another +2 upgrade to dexterity in the latest dungeon that be released.

Enter a whole new realm of challenge and adventure.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2023

10/26/13 12:33:38 AM#334
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Miblet
Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

 

That is the beauty of instanced gameplay. You don't have to wait, you don't have to count on respect of anyone, and you don't have to respect anyone.

Hence, i won't play open dungeons games with any camping.

 

Totally! you don't have to socialize! You get everything you want exactly when you want it! It's perfect.

 

 

/sarcasm

  monochrome19

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/09/13
Posts: 325

10/26/13 1:24:42 AM#335
Man... you guys really love forum pvp here.
  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6748

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/26/13 1:39:43 AM#336

They are not really better,they just made a Much bigger leap from the previous games in technology.Now a days,i see no innovation or even worse are that devs are copying the most boring ideas from the same type games such as EQish type games Wow ect ect.

Yes SOE did some good things,Blizzard very little,but devs/producers need to look elsewhere or think for themselves if to make a really good idea.

That is why games NEED to constantly evolve,because each new game is just copying 90% of the most bland ideas.

The old games literally went from pixels and bubbled talk to voice overs,beautiful 3d cut scenes/movies,great effects,great UI .higher resolution textures and most of all from single player to MMO ect ect.You can no longer remain stagnant and call that a good effort,there are hundreds of games all doing the same thing.

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Scot

Elite Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5251

10/26/13 3:27:16 AM#337
Originally posted by Wizardry

They are not really better,they just made a Much bigger leap from the previous games in technology.Now a days,i see no innovation or even worse are that devs are copying the most boring ideas from the same type games such as EQish type games Wow ect ect.

Yes SOE did some good things,Blizzard very little,but devs/producers need to look elsewhere or think for themselves if to make a really good idea.

That is why games NEED to constantly evolve,because each new game is just copying 90% of the most bland ideas.

The old games literally went from pixels and bubbled talk to voice overs,beautiful 3d cut scenes/movies,great effects,great UI .higher resolution textures and most of all from single player to MMO ect ect.You can no longer remain stagnant and call that a good effort,there are hundreds of games all doing the same thing.

 

This is the problem, MMO's went from evolving as games to chasing a market. First the solo player market, then console and now anyone on social media. Instead of evolving they have become tailored to fit the new market, first for gamers who did not want to play MMOs and now for people who are not gamers, but only occasionally dabble at games.

 

  daltanious

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1783

10/26/13 3:42:03 AM#338
To OP: they do not seem and they are not. Some people just love to live in past. Yes, fractions of past is possible were better ... but not as a whole.
  Tjed

Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/14/12
Posts: 161

10/26/13 10:17:27 AM#339
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by Miblet
Then again could you imagine a game now that would have camps respected at all if everything wasn't instanced?

 

That is the beauty of instanced gameplay. You don't have to wait, you don't have to count on respect of anyone, and you don't have to respect anyone.

Hence, i won't play open dungeons games with any camping.

 

what's the use of autonomy when a button does it all?

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19811

10/26/13 1:42:37 PM#340
Originally posted by Scot
 

This is the problem, MMO's went from evolving as games to chasing a market. First the solo player market, then console and now anyone on social media. Instead of evolving they have become tailored to fit the new market, first for gamers who did not want to play MMOs and now for people who are not gamers, but only occasionally dabble at games.

 

Chasing the market = give people what they wants, and entertain them.

May be they are not chasing YOUR market, but inherently there is nothing wrong with chasing a market (or even creating one).

 

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