Trending Games | Guild Wars 2 | Firefall | Rift | EverQuest Next

  Network:  FPSguru RTSguru
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,852,239 Users Online:0
Games:733  Posts:6,226,592
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
A-C
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord X Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodlines Champions Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Céiron Wars
D-F
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Deco Online Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
G-L
GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Haven & Hearth Hawken Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Phoenix Edition LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
M-Q
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Project Blackout Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Puzzle Pirates Quickhit Football
R-S
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowrun Online Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
T-Z
TERA TS Online Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Hammers End The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Total Domination Transformers Universe Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik

MMORPG.com Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Why 'Give players tools to create!' doesn't work

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search
140 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12145

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/25/13 5:10:51 PM#21
Originally posted by jpnz

This is to counter the notion that 'player created tools solve all ills'.

Do people feel they are good to have, yes.

Do people feel it solves specific problems, yes.

Has anyone said it is the solution for everything? No that I've seen.

 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  jfoytek

Novice Member

Joined: 6/25/12
Posts: 151

10/25/13 5:32:13 PM#22
Originally posted by jpnz

 

UO / EVE is held up as a shining example with the UO AH system being singled out as a great thing.

 

 

 

 

????  UO= Ultima Online  AH = Auction House???  These two things do not jive....  Ultima Online has an awesome economy and community because of Vendors that you stocked, which created a more realistic feel to the economy....

One shop could be out of stock you go to the next one....

One shop has a great reputation of having everything you need although its priced a bit higher then the places that seem to always be sold out, etc etc....

 

This created a very fun dynamic for people who took the time to run Vendor Houses and create a reputation for themselves...

But UO definitely never had an Auction House so I have no idea what you are referring too....

 

UO,Shadowbane,SWG,Darkfall,MO,Wurm Online,Secretworld,GW,GW2,PotBS,LotR,Atlantica Online,WWII Online,WoT,Battlestar Galactica,Planetside2,Perpetuum,Fallen Earth,Runescape,WoW,Eve,Xsylon,Dragon Prophet, Salem

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 766

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

10/25/13 6:14:48 PM#23

Player driven content creation takes the right surrounding environment. You can't throw down the tools and open the gates and expect much.

 

I have seen it work best in venues where the point is creation (Second Life as a major example). Though with second life a lot of the content is never updated and a lot of the users are not really skilled enough to have any call in making and selling products (and it shows). Users have figured out that they can sell junk just as easily as good items. What Second Life does have going for it is strong User-Creator Communication. And, a user can create in-world.

 

One great example of user made content done right is IMVU. They have a peer review system. Users can earn currency by taking time to rate potential products and bug test them. If a users submission makes it past peer review then their product becomes part of the marketplace (in a similar fashion to that of Second Life's web based market place). Users there are also heavy into revisiting products they had previously made and updating them.

 

I really have not seen many MMORPG that are heavy into user created content in my own experience. But I would think if an MMORPG wanted this as part of it's core it would have to take some que's from Social MMO's in order to be wildly successful.:

  • There would have to some fashion of quality assurance.
  • There would have to be a clear way for users creating content to profit real world (such as a Market Place).
  • There would have to be a rating of some fashion in which creators can receive praise for their work when it's good.
  • Users would have to retain some sort of proprietary rights and control over their product.
  • Products would have to be limited in  maturity rating, theme, aesthetics, graphical level of quality etc.
 
I don't think it simply doesn't work...I think it takes the right application. And, doing it for the right reasons. Take Path of Exile for example. They offer to work with players to develop new items....for $1000.00 USD. Then there is Rune Scape which has a strong suggested content forum (for existing content changes and new ideas). And, guaranteed content polls.  But by merely submitting a suggestion Rune Scapes parent company Jagex, assumes proprietary rights (which I am sure path of exile does as well). In both of these examples they are doing it for the wrong reasons. Both games want to make players feel included, without actually including them. And Everything else not so great about how they approach it stems from that.
 
Now, I do believe that EQ Next in combination with EQ Landmark may very well pull this off in a big way, and show the power of user created content. They seem to be doing much of what it would take (borrowing from existing models and applying it judiciously to the model they want it to work with). But, until some horizon games make there debut. This seems to me like something only dated games do to stay alive. and only Social MMO's do to make money.


Place Holder Signature.

  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2210

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/25/13 6:20:55 PM#24
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by maplestone

There's a huge difference between "doesn't work" and "doesn't always work".

If there is a 99% chance that 'it doesn't work', does it make sense to try for 'make it work'?

....said the person whose plane didn't fly -  to Orville and Wilbur.

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3109

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/25/13 11:42:54 PM#25


Originally posted by Neo_Viper
Letting players create most often doesn't work because many are either immature, childish, or just non respectful of the lore and don't care about the integrity of the world they create for, or simply just completely lack talent (but often still think they are great).

Just look at the cesspool the most simple player created content in any MMORPG is... chat channels.

I think the approach EQ Next takes with its separated EQN Landmark tool to filter stuff before it's added to the main world is a good approach. They allow players to create whatever they want, but only fitting content will be put in the "main" game after being filtered by the developer team.



I tend to think the same way. I just do not trust everyday game players to use "restraint" when they create in-game content. "Wouldn't it be cool if..." seems to be the foremost thought in many gamers heads. That is not usually a good basis on which to to construct within a game's environment.

Granted, there are some players that have a great imagination AND a great grasp of a specific game environment, but that is a rare combination, not the norm. Too often, players want to play something (or someone) from a totally different game in this new game world. Just take a look at the TES Nexusmods for an overabundance of examples of this.

The EQ Landmark is interesting. I just have to wonder how much "professionally designed" aspects could be created with all the time devs will have to take to go through all of the player created content. Come to think of it, I guess since players can be PAID for their submissions, they are, by definition, professional, but it is not the same.

What I think is the base for a lot of this attitude of "let US create" is the dream almost all gamers have of creating a game. If their work can get into a game, then they feel like they are developers without actually being one. Think of the rush you would have when something you created is used and enjoyed by other players in real live game :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2170

10/26/13 12:50:45 AM#26
Originally posted by jpnz

One of the more repeated lines in this forum is to 'give players the tools to create things and all will be well'.

UO / EVE is held up as a shining example with the UO AH system being singled out as a great thing.

The reality is that this doesn't always work and normally to get it to work requires something a lot more effort from players than to make it within the world.

I know people in the car auctioning industry and most of the things are done automatically (check-in/check out/ uploading items onto the internet) so they can do other things that requires a human brain than an electronic one. Why spend time typing  what the car inspection guy wrote on his paper when you can just give him an IPAD and connect that thing to your system?

 

EVE-Vegas had a presentation on logistics of an alliance and what is needed to make that game work.

http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/471606839?t=7h20m20s

I've been told that what was shown is more efficient than some companies with 25,000 employees cause good-god is that just insane!

Yeah, 'give players the tools!' is a great mantra and I too wish a slogan like 'YES WE CAN' can solve all of our problems but here's the reality; how many people are willing to do what was shown?

 

And if you are, give me some examples and lets see if some people are willing to put their money where their mouth is.

And yet, an example was given in that other thread to show exactly how it not only can, but did work. And in a remarkable way, as has been pointed out already in this thread.

And it wasn't even much as far as tools. In fact, all of the few tools in that example were major parts of the housing system. Those tools got multi-use by extension... by players.

How many people are willing to do what was shown? Lots did that thing. Other examples would be:

  • The Fishing Council of Britannia, where players used fishing to create player run events, market fished up loot, and organize a social sphere around fishing and ships.
  • The Mage Tower, where thousands of players on several shards worked together to build towers, organized a code of conduct, and meets and events
  • The Museum of Memories and other museums that followed, where players combined rare loot in actual in-game museums to preserve in-game history and rare items, ran events for players too
  • Kazola's Tavern and many other taverns, where players gathered to just mess around, and ran events like chess matches and dart leagues.
Economics was a big part of UO. You didn't just get rish automatically by leveling up and running quests. You had to DO something to get rich. Trades, rare items, and smart dealings. Unfortunately, PKing was also a way to "get rich quick". That needed fixed, no doubt. But most players were not PKers, and they did lots of activity geared towards economics.
In particular, trade fairs. These were very common in the earlier days of UO. They were a different way of doing auction type activity, selling their wares. And they were very active.
 
So, it wasn't just "who did that". It was who went to them and participated. And all told, most players went to various things. And this was on top of guild activities. And UO was a world alive like no game has been since, in these social ways.
 
And they didn't even design much in the way of "tools". It was more because of the general philosophy of the game design, a more worldly design that allowed players the freedom to do these things. As well as give them a reason to, that being both economically as well as making a name for themselves, or more often their guilds. But what could a game world be like with just SOME more tools to enhance the social atmosphere and dealings of the player base?

Once upon a time....

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/26/13 12:53:29 AM#27
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

The EQ Landmark is interesting. I just have to wonder how much "professionally designed" aspects could be created with all the time devs will have to take to go through all of the player created content.

I don't like the idea of devs being in the business of selecting designs.   It's not just about efficient use of resources, it's a fundemental lack of trust in players, a lack of tools for groups of players to create their own community standards that balance freedom vs judgement.

  Cephus404

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/08
Posts: 3689

10/26/13 12:58:20 AM#28
Originally posted by Neo_Viper

Letting players create most often doesn't work because many are either immature, childish, or just non respectful of the lore and don't care about the integrity of the world they create for, or simply just completely lack talent (but often still think they are great).

I agree with you.  After all, what is the most popular creative MMO out there?  Probably Second Life and it lets people create whatever they want and... well, look at it.  There is another one out there called Furcadia and people can create "dreams" and last time I was on there, the vast majority of "dreams" were pornographic.  Just handing out tools to make things to people who are absurdly immature is not a good idea.  Besides, in an MMORPG, you'd have to limit the things that can be created to those things that are completely neutral.  You couldn't let people make powerful weapons or the like or the balance of the entire game would be shot.  If it's just making the weapons look different, there's only limited value in that, and let's be honest, you'd have people running around with giant penis swords in no time flat.

Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3547

 
OP  10/26/13 1:57:19 AM#29
Originally posted by Zorgo
 

....said the person whose plane didn't fly -  to Orville and Wilbur.

Out of how many that tried to and over how many thousands of years.

Like I said, .the odds are just not there for most games.

If you want to hang your game on a '1% chance' go ahead but just know the odds.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 492

10/26/13 2:10:23 AM#30

It depend what "tools" you give them and how you allow they share it with other.

MMORPGs prefer "lego bricks tools" where you allow player to play (created) with the "bricks" that made by you while follow your rule (system laws)

It mean what ever they created , they can't bend or get over the "laws".

 

"world creator" type tools are worst for MMORPGs , thing just pop out from no nothing and player create they our laws.

  Raven322

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/04/12
Posts: 43

10/26/13 2:15:41 AM#31
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Zorgo
 

....said the person whose plane didn't fly -  to Orville and Wilbur.

Out of how many that tried to and over how many thousands of years.

Like I said, .the odds are just not there for most games.

If you want to hang your game on a '1% chance' go ahead but just know the odds.

 

I'm struggling to understand your motivation in making this thread. You think it won't work.

Ok. So why are you now trying to sell this idea to others? Do you need their validation? It's not like someone at SOE is going to read it and go "Oh we'd better pull the pin on the entire Landmark project then". Are you just trying to discourage others from being interested in it? For what gain? Why did you make this thread?

  Amaranthar

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/18/06
Posts: 2170

10/26/13 2:24:26 AM#32
Originally posted by iixviiiix

It depend what "tools" you give them and how you allow they share it with other.

MMORPGs prefer "lego bricks tools" where you allow player to play (created) with the "bricks" that made by you while follow your rule (system laws)

It mean what ever they created , they can't bend or get over the "laws".

 

"world creator" type tools are worst for MMORPGs , thing just pop out from no nothing and player create they our laws.

That's a good way of putting it. I was trying to think of a good response to the direction this thread took, and you got it.

It's not like we want an MMO where players can create flying penises. We want players to be able to create cities and social sphere's, guilds, and orders. But all within the context of the game.

Once upon a time....

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6700

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/26/13 2:25:11 AM#33

The very best example by far was Epic games Unreal series all with a released editor and tools to create endless content.

That is why the series and game engine took off,the difference however is that series relies on individual servers and uploading/dling content.

In the MMORPG genre most games are chap with weak tools,weak game engines,there is no real chance to make anything really good.In the Unreal series you could even load/create your own texture sets,mesh,objects ect ect,so basically create a whole new game.

Neverwinter was an example of a real cheap toss in idea and what SOE is doing is no more than a glorified Minecraft idea,while adding in cape designs and very little else.SOE tries to play it up as amazing and endless ideas but is far from the truth.

Unless a developer can think of a way to mimic what Epic games did and in the mmorpg or even the sci-fi genre,we will not see anything top notch.I also did not mention that the Unreal engines allowed users to create outside the game and import via various formats.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  Wizardry

Elite Member

Joined: 8/27/04
Posts: 6700

Perhaps tomorrow will be better.

10/26/13 2:28:29 AM#34
Originally posted by Beatnik59

City of Heroes had a lot of ways for players to create things:

1)  The base editor allowed players to create hotels, city blocks, spaceships, lairs, arcane sanctuaries, parks and so on.  I can't tell you how involved some of the designs were.

2)  The costume creator was a wonderful tool to create robots, soldiers, superheroes, beastmen, ghosts and so many other personalities.

3)  The Architect Entertainment system was loved by roleplayers and average players alike to create story arcs that the regular lore didn't support.

In fact, at the end, I'd have to say that City of Heroes was the most "creator friendly" retail MMO from a major publisher.  And it worked, splendidly.

I did not know COH could do this,i saw the core game and was turned right off.Are the building creations actually useful with insides and does the engine utilize movers,particle effects ect ect and other quality tools?

I might add i was turned off by the low end textures,could it load new hd textures or perhaps animated ones?You make it sound as good as Epic Games UNREAL engine,if so i would love to buy the game just to fiddle with creating content.

http://www.youtube.com/user/Napolianboo#p/u/15/rCYLLQCNc1w
Samoan Diamond

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3547

 
OP  10/26/13 2:42:14 AM#35
Originally posted by Raven322
 

I'm struggling to understand your motivation in making this thread. You think it won't work.

Ok. So why are you now trying to sell this idea to others? Do you need their validation? It's not like someone at SOE is going to read it and go "Oh we'd better pull the pin on the entire Landmark project then". Are you just trying to discourage others from being interested in it? For what gain? Why did you make this thread?

Same reason why we have 'give people tools and not another wow-clones' thread.

This is a factual look at that statement and ask 'how feasible is it? What does it mean in reality?'

If the reality check isn't what you'd thought it will be, tough. Reality suddenly doesn't become fiction just because you 'wish' for it to be.

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1183

10/26/13 3:06:51 AM#36
Originally posted by jpnz
 

This is a factual look at that statement and ask 'how feasible is it? What does it mean in reality?'

If the reality check isn't what you'd thought it will be, tough. Reality suddenly doesn't become fiction just because you 'wish' for it to be.

 

Sorry but I read your original post as opinionated complaining not factual evidence. OK, so you think spending a lot of time on EVE alliances or the UO  player auction house is a waste of time and don't understand why people are interested in doing that kind of thing. That is not a "fact" that "proves player created content doesn't work"; it's simply your opinion about a certain type of game content you don't happen to like.

Same goes for the people complaining about Second Life or whatever, saying "I don't like what a lot of people created" is not the same thing as saying that allowing players to create things "doesn't work" 

 

  Raven322

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/04/12
Posts: 43

10/26/13 3:08:16 AM#37
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Raven322
 

I'm struggling to understand your motivation in making this thread. You think it won't work.

Ok. So why are you now trying to sell this idea to others? Do you need their validation? It's not like someone at SOE is going to read it and go "Oh we'd better pull the pin on the entire Landmark project then". Are you just trying to discourage others from being interested in it? For what gain? Why did you make this thread?

Same reason why we have 'give people tools and not another wow-clones' thread.

This is a factual look at that statement and ask 'how feasible is it? What does it mean in reality?'

If the reality check isn't what you'd thought it will be, tough. Reality suddenly doesn't become fiction just because you 'wish' for it to be.

 

So no real reason at all then.

There's nothing factual about this thread. You've provided a single game as reference. Numerous others have been presented in a counter. You've ignored them.

What does marketing speak mean in reality? It means whatever the listener desires to hear. you will not change it. Present all the facts that you want, nobody will listen, because they hear what they want to. Even should you be proven right in the long run, no-one will credit you for it.

There's no reality check here to be had.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3547

 
OP  10/26/13 3:36:18 AM#38
Originally posted by Raven322
 

So no real reason at all then.

There's nothing factual about this thread. You've provided a single game as reference. Numerous others have been presented in a counter. You've ignored them.

What does marketing speak mean in reality? It means whatever the listener desires to hear. you will not change it. Present all the facts that you want, nobody will listen, because they hear what they want to. Even should you be proven right in the long run, no-one will credit you for it.

There's no reality check here to be had.

This post makes some pretty weird conflicting logic and then goes into some sort of self-projection of some kind.

Fascinating in a funny (but a bit sad) kind of way.

Second line says 'nothing factual' and then accepts there is a 'reference' to my original post. Huh?

Then the 3rd paragraph is some sort of weird statement about 'no one will hear you anyways' or something.

 

I am totally fine that no one is disputing my original statement though. :)

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  5Luck

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/23/10
Posts: 172

10/26/13 7:13:10 AM#39
See when this thread started I was thinking along the lines of "player tools" like flags books banners and other things that exist in the game world without a real point. Only in that the players can make a game out of them with some creativity.

Now with the direction this thread is taking I have in the past player a number of game mods and level design tools and had alot of fun. But where I think this thread is heading is into the realm of texture stretching and 3d object creation.

Now this is one of those things that is at its very core very difficult to say the least. I have played around with programs like 3d studio max(years ago) for months at a clip and while making a 3d object and giving it physics was faily easy the shape and size dictated what type of texture I was able to wrap around that object OR I could begin to play with texture making.

The process for making a texture in a 3d simulator is not easy nor is it something I feel "can be done" without a grueling amount of dedicated work. What I remember was I had a 1"X2" box that contained a texture data that when stretched around various premade objects displayed a picture in 3d but offset any of the dimensions of the object and the texture would be off significantly and that brought me back to the texture creator where again the 1"X2" box contained a 1mX5m wall texture and changing it was like trying to look through a kaleidoscope!

the only way to view a finished object was to render it and that took hours of processing and the rendering computer was unusable during that operation

So when it comes to these these tools we are looking for what we need is database of premade textures with their appropriate model sizes they work for and really that is every graphics teams goal. Not to mention that these graphics tend to get out dated regularly and that is always a horizon ever reaching forward
  Zorgo

Hard Core Member

Joined: 12/05/05
Posts: 2210

Who did wrong? The advertiser hired to sell the game or the consumer who put faith in advertising?

10/26/13 9:05:40 AM#40
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Zorgo
 

....said the person whose plane didn't fly -  to Orville and Wilbur.

Out of how many that tried to and over how many thousands of years.

Like I said, .the odds are just not there for most games.

If you want to hang your game on a '1% chance' go ahead but just know the odds.

My point is there was a science to making the plane fly - once that was figured out, making airplanes got a lot easier.

Just as EVE or Minecraft has found a formula that makes sandboxes viable, all which needs to be done is to implement a working formula and new ones will work.

It may have taken years for folks to figure out the 'give-the-players-the-tools' theory - but the theory has worked out and been proven, therefore it CAN be done again.

But if you are thoroughly convinced it can never ever work or ever ever should be tried, take comfort that you can go around and instead of claiming, "If God wanted man to fly he would have given us wings" with:

'If God wanted man to play in a sandbox he would have given us shovels for hands". 

7 Pages « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 » Search