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EVE Online

EVE Online 

Jita (General)  » A fascinating backlash from the community

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65 posts found
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/25/13 6:22:57 AM#41
nvm

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Kyleran

Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 18994

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/25/13 6:34:50 AM#42

I kind of view the entire debate as being similar to one you might find in the real world.

Soccer players would probably make the argument that their sport requires great individual, team and strategic skill, and then turning around and saying people who sail on the Americas Cup Yacht teams don't need any skill to win at their sport  in comparison.

The Yacht team crews would take great exception to this, and would point out how their wins come from great preparation in getting the boat ready, then training hard in all conditions to make sure the crew reacts correctly in every situation, and even acknowledge that sometimes a bit of luck comes into play when the winds turn with or against them at a particular moment.

Even in the race, there's more to it than just sailing the boat, and I'm sure they would share their strategy and tactics that they used to help win. 

So yes, individually, MOBA's and the like require more player interaction and twitch skill, no doubt about it, but there's all sorts of skill, and if you've ever seen a single ship destroy up to 5 opponents on their own you start to realize that some sort of skill must be involved here, because I certainly can't do it.  (and it has nothing to do with my character skill training, I can fight almost any ship through Marauders at all level 5s)

 

"In these forums 'honest' seems to be a symonym for 'hates the game just like I do'" - ohioastro
Kyleran - Bitter Vet ™ since 2006
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  Kshahdoo

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/07
Posts: 560

10/25/13 6:43:04 AM#43

So I guess any bunch of nobodies can come and win Alliance Tournament? Alright.

And just for fun how many solo kills does the author have? How many of them made in 1 vs 2, 3, 4 and more fights?

  Agent_Joseph

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/11/06
Posts: 845

10/25/13 10:04:51 AM#44

 It is why Eve has harder learning curve

In skill based action games as fps,tps ... etc., all is about training ...after  repeating same actions(not must to be smart)  players have  to be skied experienced player.

In strategic based   games must use brain all time.

only EVE is real MMO...but I am impressive with TSW

  Gardavsshade

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/27/11
Posts: 617

10/25/13 10:08:33 AM#45
Originally posted by Hanthos

Eve never has and never will be based on the individual reflexes and agility of it's players. It's not a FPS nor is it a true flight/space sim, rather, it's gameplay is based on the organizational skills, planning and outright deviousness of it's players. I've always thought that it completely leveled the playing field in the age of all the CoD/BF/Halo elitists because a twitchy finger gives you no advantage. Thinking nonstop from the moment you login until the moment you logout is the skillset necessary to succeed.

As far as the backlash, hehehe... That unto itself is part of the charm that is Eve. The first attribute one should upgrade when rolling a new character is: Thick Skin.  Eve does not suffer fools and punishes all. While a lot of the comments are just flaming, have no doubt that there are very smart, calculating people at those keyboards typing them that are prepared to make your life miserable the moment you undock. And that in itself, is a skill...

There is nothing more I could add to this to make it anymore complete. Well said Hanthos.


Nothing to see here... just another MMO Ghost....

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5515

Correcting wrongs on the Internet...

 
OP  10/26/13 5:50:44 AM#46
Originally posted by Kyleran

I kind of view the entire debate as being similar to one you might find in the real world.

Soccer players would probably make the argument that their sport requires great individual, team and strategic skill, and then turning around and saying people who sail on the Americas Cup Yacht teams don't need any skill to win at their sport  in comparison.

The Yacht team crews would take great exception to this, and would point out how their wins come from great preparation in getting the boat ready, then training hard in all conditions to make sure the crew reacts correctly in every situation, and even acknowledge that sometimes a bit of luck comes into play when the winds turn with or against them at a particular moment.

Even in the race, there's more to it than just sailing the boat, and I'm sure they would share their strategy and tactics that they used to help win. 

So yes, individually, MOBA's and the like require more player interaction and twitch skill, no doubt about it, but there's all sorts of skill, and if you've ever seen a single ship destroy up to 5 opponents on their own you start to realize that some sort of skill must be involved here, because I certainly can't do it.  (and it has nothing to do with my character skill training, I can fight almost any ship through Marauders at all level 5s)

 

You would have a point if the other games you mentioned didn't require preparation, but they do. Just the importance of it varies.

And if you opponent is terribad, you can easily beat 5 guys solo. In no kill video I've seen has the players shown any significant skill. Only that some guys are horrible at this game.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Kshahdoo

Novice Member

Joined: 8/06/07
Posts: 560

10/27/13 6:47:27 AM#47


Originally posted by Quirhid

Originally posted by Kyleran I kind of view the entire debate as being similar to one you might find in the real world. Soccer players would probably make the argument that their sport requires great individual, team and strategic skill, and then turning around and saying people who sail on the Americas Cup Yacht teams don't need any skill to win at their sport  in comparison. The Yacht team crews would take great exception to this, and would point out how their wins come from great preparation in getting the boat ready, then training hard in all conditions to make sure the crew reacts correctly in every situation, and even acknowledge that sometimes a bit of luck comes into play when the winds turn with or against them at a particular moment. Even in the race, there's more to it than just sailing the boat, and I'm sure they would share their strategy and tactics that they used to help win.  So yes, individually, MOBA's and the like require more player interaction and twitch skill, no doubt about it, but there's all sorts of skill, and if you've ever seen a single ship destroy up to 5 opponents on their own you start to realize that some sort of skill must be involved here, because I certainly can't do it.  (and it has nothing to do with my character skill training, I can fight almost any ship through Marauders at all level 5s)  
You would have a point if the other games you mentioned didn't require preparation, but they do. Just the importance of it varies.

And if you opponent is terribad, you can easily beat 5 guys solo. In no kill video I've seen has the players shown any significant skill. Only that some guys are horrible at this game.


Lol, in any MMO 1 skilled player will never beat 2 skilled players. Will. Never. Beat.

  GregorMcgregor

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/16/13
Posts: 194

10/27/13 6:49:47 AM#48
I'll return once they start letting me play as Concord and bully the bullies! ;)

No trials. No tricks. No traps. No EU-RP server. NO THANKS!


...10% Benevolence, 90% Arrogance in my case!

  NomadMorlock

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/09/07
Posts: 445

10/27/13 6:56:11 AM#49
  Loktofeit

Elite Member

Joined: 1/13/10
Posts: 12118

Currently playing EVE, SMITE, Wildstar, and Combat Arms

10/27/13 10:28:42 AM#50
Originally posted by Quirhid

And if you opponent is terribad, you can easily beat 5 guys solo. In no kill video I've seen has the players shown any significant skill. Only that some guys are horrible at this game.

I recommend checking out some of the Rooks and Kings videos. 

"And wikipedia is as accurate as Britannica. Wikipedia is very reliable. You would be hard pressed to find a more reliable source for these kinds of things." -fovoroth

  Hariken

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/15/13
Posts: 470

11/27/13 12:07:56 PM#51
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Dalano

Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?

I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.

Yeah, funny thing about that, people who claim that EVE requires little skill can't actually win consistently vs others that figure out a way to do so.

But it takes no skill, anyone can do it.

Right.

 

Eve requires skill points and good gear. Just like any other mmo out there. The pvp that requires skill are fps. As long as your clicking buttons to fire that takes no skill.  If one player researches his gear better than the other player he wins. In eve you need to invest in skill books and gear to have the best abilities which cost isk. Its no different then any other mmo. Eve fanboys want to believe there game is different but its not. Eve is an mmo with mmo pvp. Shooter's require skill, mmo's require good gear and button pushing.

  alexanys1982

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/12/08
Posts: 277

WTB a sandbox mmo with WoW's polish.

11/27/13 12:13:09 PM#52
Its been compared to age of wushu many times.

  Sovrath

Elite Member

Joined: 1/06/05
Posts: 17123

11/27/13 12:25:33 PM#53
Originally posted by Theocritus
 

 Not only that but people pay for that........Eve is the ultimate "let me ruin your fun" game, and I could never see what was any fun about it to begin with.

Did you ever think that the people who are on the giving and receiving end don't think of it as ruining your fun?

 

  Torvaldr

Elite Member

Joined: 6/10/09
Posts: 5671

11/27/13 12:32:29 PM#54
Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Dalano

Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?

I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.

Yeah, funny thing about that, people who claim that EVE requires little skill can't actually win consistently vs others that figure out a way to do so.

But it takes no skill, anyone can do it.

Right.

Eve requires skill points and good gear. Just like any other mmo out there. The pvp that requires skill are fps. As long as your clicking buttons to fire that takes no skill.  If one player researches his gear better than the other player he wins. In eve you need to invest in skill books and gear to have the best abilities which cost isk. Its no different then any other mmo. Eve fanboys want to believe there game is different but its not. Eve is an mmo with mmo pvp. Shooter's require skill, mmo's require good gear and button pushing.

There are all kinds of skills. Twitch isn't the only kind of valid combat skill. RTS/Strategy games require skill, but not twitch skills. It depends on how the game is setup. This game looks like it's about strategy, planning, and opportunity, not just 1v1 stat comparisons or twitchy fps skills.

I think a mind wipe so people could play an mmo like it was their first time again, would be easier to build than a new mmo people here would actually like. - DamonVile

  User Deleted
11/27/13 12:37:48 PM#55
Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Dalano

Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?

I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.

Yeah, funny thing about that, people who claim that EVE requires little skill can't actually win consistently vs others that figure out a way to do so.

But it takes no skill, anyone can do it.

Right.

 

Eve requires skill points and good gear. Just like any other mmo out there. The pvp that requires skill are fps. As long as your clicking buttons to fire that takes no skill.  If one player researches his gear better than the other player he wins. In eve you need to invest in skill books and gear to have the best abilities which cost isk. Its no different then any other mmo. Eve fanboys want to believe there game is different but its not. Eve is an mmo with mmo pvp. Shooter's require skill, mmo's require good gear and button pushing.

Generally, mmo's require skill when it comes to pvp, and it's not just all about the gear.  Yes, gear makes a huge difference, but understanding things are as well, like hard counters, knowing what class and spec your opponent is using, exploiting the fight area, and being coordinated enough control your character and be where you need to be when you need to be there.

 

  Iczer

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/10/04
Posts: 104

I want a world in a sandbox ... not a theme park!

11/27/13 12:44:25 PM#56
Originally posted by Kshahdoo

Lol, in any MMO 1 skilled player will never beat 2 skilled players. Will. Never. Beat.

This is not always true, even multiple skilled players make mistakes and get caught.

 

 

  Antiquated

Novice Member

Joined: 3/08/13
Posts: 479

11/27/13 5:15:21 PM#57
Originally posted by GrayKodiak

Comments, the only reason to read the internet.

I tend to agree with the author of the article in that most of the large battle "skills" come from planning and not from individual piloting. Though the author does include training the individual pilots as part of that planner's skill set.

You can't threaten their virtual self-worth (regardless of true or false). Declaring there just might be at lot less mad skillz involved than commonly portrayed is a huge threat in any PVP title.

  Quazal.A

Advanced Member

Joined: 6/10/13
Posts: 420

11/27/13 6:31:22 PM#58
Originally posted by Hariken
Originally posted by Kyleran
Originally posted by Dalano

Are some people demonstrably better at EVE pvp than others?

I posit yes, and I've got a raft of Rooks and Kings videos to prove my position. Since skill is defined as "the ability to do something well; expertise", then by definition EVE pvp requires skill. Simple as that.

Yeah, funny thing about that, people who claim that EVE requires little skill can't actually win consistently vs others that figure out a way to do so.

But it takes no skill, anyone can do it.

Right.

 

Eve requires skill points and good gear. Just like any other mmo out there. The pvp that requires skill are fps. As long as your clicking buttons to fire that takes no skill.  If one player researches his gear better than the other player he wins. In eve you need to invest in skill books and gear to have the best abilities which cost isk. Its no different then any other mmo. Eve fanboys want to believe there game is different but its not. Eve is an mmo with mmo pvp. Shooter's require skill, mmo's require good gear and button pushing.

Codscrap 

I am not going to pretend to have played many PvP games, yes i played Wushu, and yes i have the title of 'WoWs worst PVPer" but in eve there is a big difference against a normal 'fantasy mmo pvp'

Firstly, SP (skill points) this only matters to a small few, fact is 5mill sp V 150mill SP in frigates is same its about picking your fight,

You say gear.

In EvE gear /equipment has little difference, yes you may get point little bit better, maybe (if your lucky slow you down) but trust me you can fly your 40bill isk ship and i will t2 fit a same named ship with 2mill but I WILL beat your ass if you dont know mechanics.

Unlike ANY other mmo (i know) Mechanics in eve are what matters, for instance, transversal / velocity / speed / orbit / location all these are far more important than equipment and SP ...

If i may give the best example of this back in my VERY early days i lost a fairly expensivly fitted Stealth Bomber to a new player in a shuttle, HOW..... simply i fired on him from 80km at a gate in low sec(he was AFK) I did not know that the gate would shoot back at said distance, I insta-Popped, so please tell me how your gear wins fits this??? (nb shuttles have no slots and very very little armor etc) - this is a good example of knowing mechanics, of which you can use to your advantage, like getting someone to fire on you in higsec becuaes you hit them with snowballs (was a xmas pressie few years back) when people shot back thinking they had been agrod tehy got insta popped by Concord... so you see equipment means very very little V mechanics

Eve is not based on the stero typical button pushing because your always having to make adjustments rather than run around / jump you have to consider distance / speed / then change your ammo depending on your aponent. So dont judge eve because of what haters say.

 

This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  Katilla

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 637

"Who needs reality....i have a good game right here..."

11/27/13 8:48:01 PM#59
ah yes, eve PVP, click, orbit 2000m, press a button, launch drones, go to sleep, rinse, repeat.  Not to mention that the skills you get by clicking a button and waiting a long ass time without any kind of challenge to achieve.  so basically the game is, the longer you play the "better" you are cause everythings on a timer. 
  Katilla

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/14/09
Posts: 637

"Who needs reality....i have a good game right here..."

11/27/13 8:49:05 PM#60
oh, and gear is everything in this game. If you don't have the mods you lose.
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