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  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 3:22:05 PM#261

what people call a preference may or may not be a prefernce.  Someone who does not have experience is not expressing a preference, again no matter what they say.  That is not pedantic, it is a fundamental flaw in communication.

And others have said they didn't need anyone else in UO.

No. The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

Instances weren't added for the solo content - it was added to get rid of the camp, tell a better story, and control the game more.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 3:26:54 PM#262
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And others have said they didn't need anyone else in UO.

No. The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

Instances weren't added for the solo content - it was added to get rid of the camp, tell a better story, and control the game more.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the anthesis of the solo content that is pervasive in modern MMOs which almost always takes the form of an instance.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 3:32:30 PM#263
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And others have said they didn't need anyone else in UO.

No. The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

Instances weren't added for the solo content - it was added to get rid of the camp, tell a better story, and control the game more.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the anthesis of the solo content that is pervasive in modern MMOs which almost always takes the form of an instance.

Thats fine.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the type of game thats lets people choose how they want to play, solo or grouped.  And today's games have really just as much grouping as old games, just not necessarily for the same activities.  Instancing in games very rarely is solo content, the instancing is almost entirely dungeons and raids - the exact opposite of solo content.

The solo content is typically quests.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 3:34:45 PM#264
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

what people call a preference may or may not be a prefernce.  Someone who does not have experience is not expressing a preference, again no matter what they say.  That is not pedantic, it is a fundamental flaw in communication.

No, it's pedantic. It's pedantic because you're picking on the word usage and not the message. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the term. You're also using the most strict definition possible. Here's another one:

" The selecting of someone or something over another or others."

 

How does my point not fit into this defintion?

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 3:37:58 PM#265
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And others have said they didn't need anyone else in UO.

No. The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

Instances weren't added for the solo content - it was added to get rid of the camp, tell a better story, and control the game more.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the anthesis of the solo content that is pervasive in modern MMOs which almost always takes the form of an instance.

Thats fine.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the type of game thats lets people choose how they want to play, solo or grouped.  And today's games have really just as much grouping as old games, just not necessarily for the same activities.  Instancing in games very rarely is solo content, the instancing is almost entirely dungeons and raids - the exact opposite of solo content.

The solo content is typically quests.

I'm not sure if you know you're doing it but you come off as quite smarmy when you use people's exact wording in your own point.

 

At any rate, I think if you ask people what they mean by solo content, they'll respond by referencing instancing. The ability to cut yourself off from the rest of the community. But you're right, questing is another form of solo content. It's also something that is far more widespread now than it was before.

  Lowcaian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/01/11
Posts: 267

10/24/13 3:39:38 PM#266

I've never had any problems telling a good mmorpg from a bad. If it is good it should create a living breathing world, an alternate reality if you will, that makes you want to visit it again and again. It doesn't have to have the most advanced engine or the slickest graphics to do this. Such games often have "loose" rules, a lot of things to do and encourages social interaction.

 

Many modern games are the opposite. The trail is already set in stone, from the first time you log in to max level. The human interactions not only occur less often, when they do they are more transitory in nature compared to older games. You don't make "friends" in the same way that you used to. New games are more and more becoming a lobby to this or that instanced activity. It can still be a fun game but it is no longer a mmorpg because it has sacrificed the living breathing world, the one thing a mmorpg should never compromise with if it want to be called that.

 

 

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 3:51:49 PM#267
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

what people call a preference may or may not be a prefernce.  Someone who does not have experience is not expressing a preference, again no matter what they say.  That is not pedantic, it is a fundamental flaw in communication.

No, it's pedantic. It's pedantic because you're picking on the word usage and not the message. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the term. You're also using the most strict definition possible. Here's another one:

" The selecting of someone or something over another or others."

 

How does my point not fit into this defintion?

No it's not pedantic because if someone has a preference for something that means they have knowledge of both, or knowledge of what it is they prefer.  If they don't have that knowledge it is not a preference, merely a blind choice, or a choice based on an incorrect assumption. 

That is not significantly different from what I stated. And the free online dictionary that you got that from is the only one that give sthat. 

In fact that is a poor definition because people often deliberately choose things they don't like or don't want, it is not their preference.

https://www.google.com/search?q=preference+defintion

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/preference

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/preference

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/preference

 

Of all those, only one said it was merely the choosing.  A poor definition and not one most people think of when saying I prefer...

 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 3:52:46 PM#268
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And others have said they didn't need anyone else in UO.

No. The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

Instances weren't added for the solo content - it was added to get rid of the camp, tell a better story, and control the game more.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the anthesis of the solo content that is pervasive in modern MMOs which almost always takes the form of an instance.

Thats fine.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the type of game thats lets people choose how they want to play, solo or grouped.  And today's games have really just as much grouping as old games, just not necessarily for the same activities.  Instancing in games very rarely is solo content, the instancing is almost entirely dungeons and raids - the exact opposite of solo content.

The solo content is typically quests.

I'm not sure if you know you're doing it but you come off as quite smarmy when you use people's exact wording in your own point.

 

At any rate, I think if you ask people what they mean by solo content, they'll respond by referencing instancing. The ability to cut yourself off from the rest of the community. But you're right, questing is another form of solo content. It's also something that is far more widespread now than it was before.

What game has instances that were designed to have people solo?

The idea is not to be smarmy, I apologize if it comes off that way.  The idea is to show that our perception is not reality, so we can use the exact same phrasing to describe the completely opposite situation.  So if we believe something to be true we should have more than just our perception of it, and to ask ourselves do we have a bias for that, and then why we have that, leading to is that correct.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  Alders

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/10
Posts: 1715

I cannot fiddle but I can make a great state of a small city.

10/24/13 4:05:40 PM#269
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

 The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

This is something i absolutely miss and you're spot on.

Trying to either solo or low man open world bosses normally designed for an alliance/raid was so much fun.  Of course it stunk for everyone else having to watch after wasting hours or days of their lives camping said boss.  Finding some sort of balance between these would be great.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 4:06:57 PM#270
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

what people call a preference may or may not be a prefernce.  Someone who does not have experience is not expressing a preference, again no matter what they say.  That is not pedantic, it is a fundamental flaw in communication.

No, it's pedantic. It's pedantic because you're picking on the word usage and not the message. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the term. You're also using the most strict definition possible. Here's another one:

" The selecting of someone or something over another or others."

 

How does my point not fit into this defintion?

No it's not pedantic because if someone has a preference for something that means they have knowledge of both, or knowledge of what it is they prefer.  If they don't have that knowledge it is not a preference, merely a blind choice, or a choice based on an incorrect assumption. 

That is not significantly different from what I stated. And the free online dictionary that you got that from is the only one that give sthat.  People choose things. 

In fact that is a poor definition because people often deliberately choose things they don't like or don't want, it is not their preference.

https://www.google.com/search?q=preference+defintion

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/preference

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/preference

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/preference

 

Of all those, only one said it was merely the choosing.  A poor definition and not one most people think of when saying I prefer...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

"a. The selecting of someone or something over another or others.

b. The right or chance to so choose.

c. Someone or something so chosen."

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

"a feeling of liking or wanting one person or thing more than another person or thing"

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prefer

"tend to choose"

 

You're basically saying "I'm not being pedantic because I'm right."

 

First of all, you're not right. Definitions for prefer/preference are not in conflict with my post.

 

Second, even if you were technically correct (you're not), it would still be pedantic because in the context of this debate you have nothing to say. The word preference in this case is obviously talking about people's expressed preference. What they say they prefer. You nit picking word usage is a waste of time. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the word like that.

 

Third, using your strict definition of the word, basically nobody could ever use it. You could never say you prefer anything over another thing because you will never have complete knowledge of either. This is why you're being pedantic.

 

 

 

 

  User Deleted
10/24/13 4:08:05 PM#271

I think older mmos seemed better because we had no expectations.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 4:11:45 PM#272
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

And others have said they didn't need anyone else in UO.

No. The main ways to have solo content in an MMO is not by instances or by turning off pvp, those are just 2 ways.

In the past they did not call it solo or group content, they just called it content.  You could attempt it solo, you could attempt it grouped.  And many many many did do it solo.

Instances weren't added for the solo content - it was added to get rid of the camp, tell a better story, and control the game more.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the anthesis of the solo content that is pervasive in modern MMOs which almost always takes the form of an instance.

Thats fine.

The way I've always perceived the discussion around these parts is that an open, social, virtual world is the type of game thats lets people choose how they want to play, solo or grouped.  And today's games have really just as much grouping as old games, just not necessarily for the same activities.  Instancing in games very rarely is solo content, the instancing is almost entirely dungeons and raids - the exact opposite of solo content.

The solo content is typically quests.

I'm not sure if you know you're doing it but you come off as quite smarmy when you use people's exact wording in your own point.

 

At any rate, I think if you ask people what they mean by solo content, they'll respond by referencing instancing. The ability to cut yourself off from the rest of the community. But you're right, questing is another form of solo content. It's also something that is far more widespread now than it was before.

What game has instances that were designed to have people solo?

The idea is not to be smarmy, I apologize if it comes off that way.  The idea is to show that our perception is not reality, so we can use the exact same phrasing to describe the completely opposite situation.  So if we believe something to be true we should have more than just our perception of it, and to ask ourselves do we have a bias for that, and then why we have that, leading to is that correct.

I don't tend to play games with instances. But I do think the term solo is loosely used. For instance, if it's not massively multiplayer, it's more solo-oriented. The ability to cut off the rest of the world in the case of instancing is more solo-oriented. It's not as social. That's why right off the bat I clarified that I'm taking solo content to basically be the antithesis of an open, social virtual world.

 

But let's assume you're right and that questing (not instancing) is a good example of solo content. Questing has been brought to the forefront of MMOs to an insane degree in what would be considered the "modern" era of MMOs. Questing was never as important or widespread as it currently is, or was very recently.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 4:14:51 PM#273
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

what people call a preference may or may not be a prefernce.  Someone who does not have experience is not expressing a preference, again no matter what they say.  That is not pedantic, it is a fundamental flaw in communication.

No, it's pedantic. It's pedantic because you're picking on the word usage and not the message. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the term. You're also using the most strict definition possible. Here's another one:

" The selecting of someone or something over another or others."

 

How does my point not fit into this defintion?

No it's not pedantic because if someone has a preference for something that means they have knowledge of both, or knowledge of what it is they prefer.  If they don't have that knowledge it is not a preference, merely a blind choice, or a choice based on an incorrect assumption. 

That is not significantly different from what I stated. And the free online dictionary that you got that from is the only one that give sthat.  People choose things. 

In fact that is a poor definition because people often deliberately choose things they don't like or don't want, it is not their preference.

https://www.google.com/search?q=preference+defintion

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/preference

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/preference

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/preference

 

Of all those, only one said it was merely the choosing.  A poor definition and not one most people think of when saying I prefer...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

"a. The selecting of someone or something over another or others.

b. The right or chance to so choose.

c. Someone or something so chosen."

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

"a feeling of liking or wanting one person or thing more than another person or thing"

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prefer

"tend to choose"

 

You're basically saying "I'm not being pedantic because I'm right."

 

First of all, you're not right. Definitions for prefer/preference are not in conflict with my post.

 

Second, even if you were technically correct (you're not), it would still be pedantic because in the context of this debate you have nothing to say. The word preference in this case is obviously talking about people's expressed preference. What they say they prefer. You nit picking word usage is a waste of time. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the word like that.

 

Third, using your strict definition of the word, basically nobody could ever use it. You could never say you prefer anything over another thing because you will never have complete knowledge of either. This is why you're being pedantic.

 

 

 

 

Once again, wanting something is very different from choosing something.  Wanting is the preference, choosing that may be based on the preference, choosing may be based on something else. 

And no I disagree that this debate is about people's expressed prefernce, you have chosen to say that, this is about people's actual preference.  And you have presented this whole thign by saying they they likely choose new ones because either they didn't know about them (which is totally arogant and in this day and age where WoW is almost a decade old, largely untrue now) or didn't like the grahpics -  very very weak arguments and largely false.

And no most people do think preference corresponds to what people actually like.  You don't need to have complete knowledge to have a preference, you do need to have some knowledg  - a strawman argument..  You cannot prefer somethign over another if you don't know the other-

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 4:18:05 PM#274
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
.

 

But let's assume you're right and that questing (not instancing) is a good example of solo content. Questing has been brought to the forefront of MMOs to an insane degree in what would be considered the "modern" era of MMOs. Questing was never as important or widespread as it currently is, or was very recently.

Ok.  So?  This doesn't mean that the modern era has more or less solo content than older games, only that it has more quests.  Older games may have had more mob grinding (actually they did), they may have had more crafting, they may have had other activities (swg entertainer).

Just having more of one feature that is solo, doesn't mean the overal game is more solo.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

10/24/13 4:21:10 PM#275
Originally posted by qombi
Originally posted by aspekx

first to be clear, there are significant differences in the mmorpg's from 10-15 years back (or more). so i am not belittling those changes. however, its interesting to note that a number of us older gamers can look back and think: my gahd, what was i thinking camping that spawn all day.

 

the sad truth, that i am coming to accept, is that neurologically speaking its becoming more and more evident that the brain's ability to adapt to change as we age does diminish and it does diminish noticeably.

 

im afraid that neurologically speaking some of us are simply getting older. and i mean that sincerely, not casting any aspersions. but the facts are that as you age your neuronal pathways become less and less "flexible" in forming new connections or altering paths.

 

note, this is not about intelligence or the ability to process information. it seems that in some ways its easier when you are older. but the ability to form new paths or adapt older ones in new ways is affected (even if you are doing Sudoku every morning).

 

this is often why older folks are stereotypically seen as not embracing change. neurologically, its just harder. so those things we've enjoyed in the past seem more pleasurable because in a sense they really are more pleasurable. and the reason is that the brain is not having to overcome an increasingly difficult hurdle towards change.

 

this doesn't mean that everyone over 40 can't change or adapt. but it does mean that it is decreasing over time.

This is wrong and I will tell you why. The games have changed over time and are different from what they were ten years ago. Embracing poor changes in my opinion doesn't lead to the conclusion older people are unable to accept change. What people like is subjective.

By the way, I really enjoyed World of Warcraft after I played Everquest for years. Why? I liked the game, I liked the changes. I could solo in this big world and do meaningful very fun group content in my opinion. I enjoyed the game mechanics, I loved the group dynamics, I loved crowd control, and strategy in dungeons.

Everquest changed while I was playing it, guess what for the worse. I didn't like the direction SOE took the game so I moved on to a new game which was different. I didn't like that Everquest had  a POK lobby, I didn't like the theme the expansion took, etc. World of Warcraft too has changed in a way I do not like now. The selling of virtual items on top of a subscription, mindless group content that a potatoe could succeed at, pet battles.

So you think you are right but so wrong. I like new games and I like some changes but not all changes. We are going to switch your ice cream on the weekend with asparagus for the sake of change. If you don't like it, you must be old.

I still think the original post is quite silly and as narrow as this underlined part quoted written previously.

  Pocahinha

Novice Member

Joined: 7/14/09
Posts: 570

10/24/13 4:25:10 PM#276
Originally posted by Magiknight
Even if I do have more trouble adapting to change as I get older that doesn't change the fact that the games have changed. Now they are shallower, emptier, shorter, easier, quicker....

This.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 4:25:48 PM#277
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

what people call a preference may or may not be a prefernce.  Someone who does not have experience is not expressing a preference, again no matter what they say.  That is not pedantic, it is a fundamental flaw in communication.

No, it's pedantic. It's pedantic because you're picking on the word usage and not the message. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the term. You're also using the most strict definition possible. Here's another one:

" The selecting of someone or something over another or others."

 

How does my point not fit into this defintion?

No it's not pedantic because if someone has a preference for something that means they have knowledge of both, or knowledge of what it is they prefer.  If they don't have that knowledge it is not a preference, merely a blind choice, or a choice based on an incorrect assumption. 

That is not significantly different from what I stated. And the free online dictionary that you got that from is the only one that give sthat.  People choose things. 

In fact that is a poor definition because people often deliberately choose things they don't like or don't want, it is not their preference.

https://www.google.com/search?q=preference+defintion

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/preference

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/preference

https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/preference

http://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/preference

http://oald8.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/dictionary/preference

 

Of all those, only one said it was merely the choosing.  A poor definition and not one most people think of when saying I prefer...

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/preference

"a. The selecting of someone or something over another or others.

b. The right or chance to so choose.

c. Someone or something so chosen."

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/preference

"a feeling of liking or wanting one person or thing more than another person or thing"

 

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/prefer

"tend to choose"

 

You're basically saying "I'm not being pedantic because I'm right."

 

First of all, you're not right. Definitions for prefer/preference are not in conflict with my post.

 

Second, even if you were technically correct (you're not), it would still be pedantic because in the context of this debate you have nothing to say. The word preference in this case is obviously talking about people's expressed preference. What they say they prefer. You nit picking word usage is a waste of time. Not only that, I'm not the only one using the word like that.

 

Third, using your strict definition of the word, basically nobody could ever use it. You could never say you prefer anything over another thing because you will never have complete knowledge of either. This is why you're being pedantic.

 

 

 

 

Once again, wanting something is very different from choosing something.  Wanting is the preference, choosing that may be based on the preference, choosing may be based on something else. 

And no I disagree that this debate is about people's expressed prefernce, you have chosen to say that, this is about people's actual preference.  And you have presented this whole thign by saying they they likely choose new ones because either they didn't know about them (which is totally arogant and in this day and age where WoW is almost a decade old, largely untrue now) or didn't like the grahpics -  very very weak arguments and largely false.

And no most people do think preference corresponds to what people actually like.  You don't need to have complete knowledge to have a preference, you do need to have some knowledg  - a strawman argument..  You cannot prefer somethign over another if you don't know the other-

You're confused again. The preference debate started by me responding to one of Narius' many posts that hold up an individual's preference to godlike status. He loves to point out that the only thing that matters is the individual's preference. I'm saying that's bullshit. The individual may be misinformed, or biased. Not only preferences are created equal because they may turn out to be wrong. You may have preferred something over another thing because of a personal bias, bad information, etc. That doesn't mean you didn't prefer it. It means your preference wasn't very valid, which is my point.

 

Can I say I prefer UO over WoW? What if I've never played WoW? What if I only played it a little? What if I played it when I was drunk? What if I never played it, but somebody explained it to me?

 

Your requirements for what we consider an actual preference or not are either too strict, or arbitrary. It's not a strawman.

  Holophonist

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2028

10/24/13 4:31:07 PM#278
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
.

 

But let's assume you're right and that questing (not instancing) is a good example of solo content. Questing has been brought to the forefront of MMOs to an insane degree in what would be considered the "modern" era of MMOs. Questing was never as important or widespread as it currently is, or was very recently.

Ok.  So?  This doesn't mean that the modern era has more or less solo content than older games, only that it has more quests.  Older games may have had more mob grinding (actually they did), they may have had more crafting, they may have had other activities (swg entertainer).

Just having more of one feature that is solo, doesn't mean the overal game is more solo.

SWG entertainer required interaction from other players, if I'm remembering correctly. Also, crafting to put in your vendor or to actually sell to another play is not an example of solo content. In the case of UO, it was the opposite. Crafting was a very social aspect of the game. 

 

The point about quests is if you say questing is an example of solo content, and questing is far more prevalent now, then that's an indiciation that games are more solo-oriented. 

 

Interacting with lots of other players is the opposite of solo content. Having a lot of instances, streamlined auction houses, no unwarranted player interaction (ow pvp, clipping, stealing, etc) are all a shift away from the MM part of MMORPG and towards more solo-oriented play, or co-op play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 4:49:00 PM#279
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
Originally posted by Holophonist
Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
.

 

But let's assume you're right and that questing (not instancing) is a good example of solo content. Questing has been brought to the forefront of MMOs to an insane degree in what would be considered the "modern" era of MMOs. Questing was never as important or widespread as it currently is, or was very recently.

Ok.  So?  This doesn't mean that the modern era has more or less solo content than older games, only that it has more quests.  Older games may have had more mob grinding (actually they did), they may have had more crafting, they may have had other activities (swg entertainer).

Just having more of one feature that is solo, doesn't mean the overal game is more solo.

SWG entertainer required interaction from other players, if I'm remembering correctly. Also, crafting to put in your vendor or to actually sell to another play is not an example of solo content. In the case of UO, it was the opposite. Crafting was a very social aspect of the game. 

 

The point about quests is if you say questing is an example of solo content, and questing is far more prevalent now, then that's an indiciation that games are more solo-oriented. 

 

Interacting with lots of other players is the opposite of solo content. Having a lot of instances, streamlined auction houses, no unwarranted player interaction (ow pvp, clipping, stealing, etc) are all a shift away from the MM part of MMORPG and towards more solo-oriented play, or co-op play.

Vendoring/selling is seperate from crafting.  I can craft by myself all day long.  Selling requires interaction.  Crafting can very much be a solo activity. 

No just because questing is more prevalent and questing is a solo content does not mean that the game is more solo-orientied, you are making an assumption about all the other activities with that statement.  It may or may not be true. 

Instances are group oriented, the opposite of solo. 

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  VengeSunsoar

Hard Core Member

Joined: 3/10/04
Posts: 4844

Be Brief, Be Bright... Be Gone.

10/24/13 4:51:12 PM#280
Originally posted by Holophonist

 

You're confused again. The preference debate started by me responding to one of Narius' many posts that hold up an individual's preference to godlike status. He loves to point out that the only thing that matters is the individual's preference. I'm saying that's bullshit. The individual may be misinformed, or biased. Not only preferences are created equal because they may turn out to be wrong. You may have preferred something over another thing because of a personal bias, bad information, etc. That doesn't mean you didn't prefer it. It means your preference wasn't very valid, which is my point.

 

Can I say I prefer UO over WoW? What if I've never played WoW? What if I only played it a little? What if I played it when I was drunk? What if I never played it, but somebody explained it to me?

 

Your requirements for what we consider an actual preference or not are either too strict, or arbitrary. It's not a strawman.

The preferences are all equal.  The opinion is not.  They are different. 

The strawman was your assertion about it being impossible to have complete knowledge.  You don't need complete knowledge - therefore it is a strawman argument.

Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

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