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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Have MMOs Become Too Easy?

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140 posts found
  Bravnik

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/18/04
Posts: 143

10/23/13 2:15:00 PM#21

Another HUGE mistake made by MMO's of late and not mentioned in the panel is PVP. MMO's before the days of PVE/PVP Mix were just PVE's. You had a ton of diversity in the classes. Each class was very different. Tanks were good tanks but did crap for DPS. Wizards did a TON of damage but were glass canons. You had to Group to get real stuff done.

 

With the addition of PVP in a PVE game you ruin the diversity. I'm a HUGE believer that PVP needs to be removed from a PVE game. There is simply no reason to have PVP in a PVE game to begin with. Dueling is cool and I believe WOW got it right with the battle grounds before the days of PVP gear and Arena's. Hell look want the addition of true PVP did to WOW. It is the number one reason WOW was dumbed down. Classes were nerfed based on PVP over and over again.

 

Simply put, PVP needs to be balanced and if you do that in a PVE game you completely ruin the PVE side of the house. Classes are all cookie cutter with no diversity anymore.

  Reklaw

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/07/06
Posts: 6168

The adult I am takes care of most things real life. However my inner-child is a GAMER!!

10/23/13 2:28:40 PM#22

Chris I have to ask what you meant with "more options" is this in regards of ingame options or more like there are allot of games out there to choose from?

For example my favorite MMORPG still today is Star Wars Galaxies, I have not played a game that even comes close to the options SWG provided me with. And trust me when I say I have played and tested plenty.

If you meant more option as said in more games to choose from then I can fully agree.

Overall I do feel this genre has become more easy,  but in my opinion it's due to the lack of options in most of today's MMO's.

I really want to be a unique toon in the gameworld. I even find my challenge to being unique even in today's themepark games. Of course I give myself a certain freedom to not to pvp...much which makes me less worrying about min/maxing my stats but at the same time still remain challenging while trying to wear only crafted gear. Which in most themepark games isn't the best gear. But it does keep me on my toes.

I use to be a min/max player but as time goes by but most games became far to easy when playing that way. Many games even became boring as I slashed my way thru anything. I had to find another way to still enjoy these games and have found it.

  dave6660

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/26/08
Posts: 2361

"Next time I see you, remind me not to talk to you."

10/23/13 2:29:32 PM#23
Originally posted by DamonVile
The last time I fought something in a game that I didn't know before combat even started that I was going to win was in skyrim. I don't remember the last time it happened in an mmo outside of a dungeon or raid.

To be fair you can pull a mob of a much higher level than you where the fight can go either way.  The problem is that the outcome is really not about skill so much as about getting a few lucky crit rolls and hoping your HP holds up.

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  DukeTyrion

Novice Member

Joined: 8/03/06
Posts: 82

10/23/13 2:37:18 PM#24
Originally posted by c0exist

Although the whole paragraph was on point this quote from Chris is perfect

"Whoever decided that all players should reach the level cap moved this genre from journey to destination."

Level cap should be a privilege with dedication, level cap should not be a rite.

 

This.

 

Why can't I play a game where level X seems a distant dream, but just adventuring at level 20 or such seems an enjoyable journey.

 

Plus, give me drops that I can use for some time. What's the point in getting an epic level 10 sword of dragon slaying if it's out of date within 25 minutes of game play?

  PsiKahn

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/26/12
Posts: 124

10/23/13 4:49:59 PM#25
Good discussion.  Lets not forget that part of the reason these games have taken a lowest-common-denominator approach is because of ballooning budgets that require massive numbers to break even.  This is why independent and crowd-funded projects have a lot of potential.  They don't need a court an incredibly massive player base to succeed.  They can be great game for a modest number of people rather than a middling game for a lot of people.
  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6699

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

10/23/13 5:26:34 PM#26

Become too easy? Where have you guys been the last decade or so?

MMOs became easy when WoW was released. Every MMO released after were a walk in the park. Atleast to hit the level cap and get decked out in top gear. Granted the top, top gear needed some serious raiding which requires both coordination and skills but even that became easy once you did it a few times.

  Yamota

Elite Member

Joined: 10/05/03
Posts: 6699

Gaming should be about fun, not gender equality.

10/23/13 5:28:20 PM#27
Originally posted by DukeTyrion
Originally posted by c0exist

Although the whole paragraph was on point this quote from Chris is perfect

"Whoever decided that all players should reach the level cap moved this genre from journey to destination."

Level cap should be a privilege with dedication, level cap should not be a rite.

 

This.

 

Why can't I play a game where level X seems a distant dream, but just adventuring at level 20 or such seems an enjoyable journey.

 

Plus, give me drops that I can use for some time. What's the point in getting an epic level 10 sword of dragon slaying if it's out of date within 25 minutes of game play?

 

I second that. Getting to level cap and/or getting the best gear is supposed to be special. It is not special if houndreds of people has done it, within a month of release.

  aesperus

Elite Member

Joined: 1/04/05
Posts: 4847

10/23/13 5:33:21 PM#28

A good topic, but I felt like both you guys (Chris & Bill) went very light on this topic.

For starters, it has PVP in the title, and yet almost nothing you guys talked about had anything to do w/ PvP. It was all about raiding, progression, exploration. I.E. PvE factors.

And while those factors are very relevant towards making a game feel like a virtual world, they have nothing to do with whether the combat / pvp is actually any good, or how challenging the game actually is. You also, VERY briefly, touch on how the # of skills don't necessarily translate into difficulty. Definitely agree with Bill on that point.

Overall, I do think MMOs have gotten too easy. I've thought this for a while. And it is indeed at large due to Blizzard's 'make WoW the most accessible game on the market' approach. As was pointed out, those games sell better. And more sales lead to better production value. And higher production value means a shiner game, means that more people will try it.

I also agree that MMOs (for the most part) were never that hard to begin with. I would love to see more mechanics like we have in games like DotA 2, or Dark Souls, or Dragon's Dogma, or Jedi Knight. I'd love to start seeing MMOs where skill was determined by mastery over interesting / complex mechanics, rather than passive stats. Press 1 is easy. Timing difficult to use mechanics, isn't. And there's pleanty of examples of how this can be done, if we open up our designs to encorperate mechanics from other genres.

  LagKingBong

Novice Member

Joined: 10/23/13
Posts: 57

10/23/13 5:59:30 PM#29
Dragon's Dogma was a great game, would love to see combat like that in an MMO
  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1891

10/23/13 6:11:42 PM#30
I remember having this discussion on these boards before.  I have yet to have seen an MMO that was "hard" and I have been playing MMOs since 2002 with Neocron being my first.  I didn't play EQ becuase it looked pretty lame to me at the time (jumps in flame proof suit) plus I was playing Day of Defeat, when it was a mod, heavily.  And yes, just like in the older conversation I did do some raiding in MMO as well.  People seem to confuse gear grind, or learning a Boss pattern as hard more and more lately and often recite certain raids from back in the day to prove their point.   Sorry that doesn't hold water with me.  Unless they make a Dark Souls MMO (which I actually hope they don't), then I will continue to see PVE in MMOs as easy just like I always have.

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  jtcgs

Advanced Member

Joined: 9/28/04
Posts: 1843

10/23/13 6:20:54 PM#31

Anyone with a clear view of the past can see that the dumbing down of MMOs started with DAOC.

Its the game that started the "shiny" for PvP. Presented PvP in a way where it was zerg over skill, button mashing over style, invented the phrase "face-rolling". The game that introduced the gear over skill mindset. The first game to have people create a damage spreadsheet to measure if another player is good enough to join a team.

Its the very game WoW was built upon.

PvP rewards

more people = better

latest tear gear sets required, because without that extra .3% damage you aren't leet enough.

no point to PvP unless there is some kind of shiny reward for doing it.

 

Hell, you cant get any more dumbed down than a game designed by people saying that players are so stupid we have to separate the races so they wont get confused who the enemy is. And we have to create pride in a faction for the player. THAT is where the dumbing down began, no respect for the players.

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  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

10/23/13 6:24:05 PM#32
Originally posted by rodingo
I remember having this discussion on these boards before.  I have yet to have seen an MMO that was "hard" and I have been playing MMOs since 2002 with Neocron being my first.  I didn't play EQ becuase it looked pretty lame to me at the time (jumps in flame proof suit) plus I was playing Day of Defeat, when it was a mod, heavily.  And yes, just like in the older conversation I did do some raiding in MMO as well.  People seem to confuse gear grind, or learning a Boss pattern as hard more and more lately and often recite certain raids from back in the day to prove their point.   Sorry that doesn't hold water with me.  Unless they make a Dark Souls MMO (which I actually hope they don't), then I will continue to see PVE in MMOs as easy just like I always have.

I agree, the MMO genre has never been mechanically difficult. I'm sure I've used the terms "hard" and "easy" when referring to MMOs before, but I think I should be using the terms "unforgiving" and "forgiving".

  Zajjar

Novice Member

Joined: 10/06/13
Posts: 48

10/23/13 6:36:46 PM#33

The cattle call of the last generation of MMOs ... has been accessibility. Let’s look at what we lost with that: meaningful grouping, long term goals, dangerous worlds with real risk vs reward, being able to excel beyond the “level playing field.” That’s a shame because I was under the impression we were playing in virtual worlds. The games of today feel a lot more like playpens where nobody’s a loser and everybody wins.

 

THIS!!!!!! ^^^>>>>

  SavageHorizon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/14/13
Posts: 1580

10/23/13 6:39:31 PM#34
Originally posted by Avarix

I agree with Chris. Too much has been lost while aiming for accessibility. I think Dark Souls (Even though it's not a MMO) did a great thing for all games. It showed that players actually want difficulty and developers paid attention because it made money. The same can be said about Minecraft. It showed that players can thrive in creative environments and make their own fun.

What's great about these games isn't that they tried something new and innovative, because for the most part they didn't, it's that they are not just succeeding but thriving in a market that is flooded with the exact opposite. This gets developers to pay attention and changes the current trends. I imagine, in the not too distant future, we will be seeing a substantial rise in the difficulty across all game genres and I can't wait. I am sick of getting everything handing to me just for showing up. 

 

The change in trends can't come fast enough for me.

Forget minecraft, Wurm Online makes minecraft look micky mouse.

Yes and Dark Souls is great but once you have been through the game it really is easy after that.

 

 

 

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  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2445

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

10/23/13 6:43:31 PM#35
Chris was dead on.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
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  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

10/23/13 6:46:40 PM#36
Just look at this article and the subsequent posts in this thread. How can anybody on this site claim that there aren't a significant amount of people who want a change in the genre? Even Bill, the guy arguing in favor of modern games, admits to their alleged faults.
  DamonVile

Apprentice Member

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 4909

10/23/13 6:53:33 PM#37
Originally posted by Holophonist
Just look at this article and the subsequent posts in this thread. How can anybody on this site claim that there aren't a significant amount of people who want a change in the genre? Even Bill, the guy arguing in favor of modern games, admits to their alleged faults.

Get 2 people to agree on what actually makes a game "hard" and you'd be farther ahead than any dev has ever been.

  qombi

Novice Member

Joined: 7/09/04
Posts: 1187

10/23/13 6:55:42 PM#38

Yes they have become too easy. I disagree with people in this thread that claim World of Warcraft was too easy. Please hear me out. I think World of Warcraft in the beginning was spot on. The current version of World of Warcraft is garbage.

Everquest was not hard, it was time consuming and had force grouping. I am not bashing Everquest, I love that game dearly. It was difficult for it's own reasons but not because of the combat. World of Warcraft in the beginning was accessible as in you could do things on your own solo to level but there was some really really fun dungeons and raids .

The dungeons required teamwork to get through and were a tons of fun. Classes had to crowd control, control their agro, heal and tank properly which required positioning and care. The dungeons were wonderful.

I miss Everquest and World of Warcraft before they were turned into garbage with expansion packs. I would play either one of them today for different reasons.

  Ice-Queen

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/02/08
Posts: 2445

"Always borrow money from a pessimist. They won't expect it back."

10/23/13 6:56:27 PM#39
Originally posted by jtcgs

Anyone with a clear view of the past can see that the dumbing down of MMOs started with DAOC.

Its the game that started the "shiny" for PvP. Presented PvP in a way where it was zerg over skill, button mashing over style, invented the phrase "face-rolling". The game that introduced the gear over skill mindset. The first game to have people create a damage spreadsheet to measure if another player is good enough to join a team.

Its the very game WoW was built upon.

PvP rewards

more people = better

latest tear gear sets required, because without that extra .3% damage you aren't leet enough.

no point to PvP unless there is some kind of shiny reward for doing it.

 

Hell, you cant get any more dumbed down than a game designed by people saying that players are so stupid we have to separate the races so they wont get confused who the enemy is. And we have to create pride in a faction for the player. THAT is where the dumbing down began, no respect for the players.


I disagree somewhat. DAOC was not a gear grinding game and there were positionals you had to use for melee attacks, and casters were rooted while casting, and could be interrupted easily to where they couldn't  cast...Tanks actually had a purpose to shield healers and casters.

I never grinded for gear, we bought player made gear and it was the best you could get before the abysmal ToA came along. I quit after that, no idea how the game is now. I just know before ToA, the game was the best RvR/Pvp game I've ever played. No gear grind and each realm had a sense of pride never seen in today's mmorpg's.

What happens when you log off your characters????.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMk
Dark Age of Camelot

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2050

10/23/13 6:58:25 PM#40
Originally posted by DamonVile
Originally posted by Holophonist
Just look at this article and the subsequent posts in this thread. How can anybody on this site claim that there aren't a significant amount of people who want a change in the genre? Even Bill, the guy arguing in favor of modern games, admits to their alleged faults.

Get 2 people to agree on what actually makes a game "hard" and you'd be farther ahead than any dev has ever been.

I'm not claiming to be able to produce an MMO, even if asked to make a game just for myself. I'm just saying that a lot of people are disappointed/upset with modern MMOs and want a change. 

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