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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] Pathfinder Online: Checking in on PvP

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45 posts found
  furbans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 960

10/17/13 3:57:13 PM#21
Originally posted by Grakulen
Originally posted by furbans

Author should get all the facts straight.

PFO was not given a greenlight with the 2nd kickstarter.  The development has ALWAYS been decided upon and do you honestly think 1 million USD will fund the game?  All the kickstarters were to speed up some tech demos and milestones.

Saying PvP is the central feature is a bit misleading.  Yes it's a big part but human interaction being the central feature is more apt since you need to have others to harvest, protect your resource gathering not only from players but more importantly from NPC mobs who will come and escalates the longer your operation goes, there are dungeons of sorts that will be instanced to a party.  The game, on paper, is a whole lot more complicated than "just PvP."

The author completely misses on the PvP styles, their are three categories that is organized by large scale PvP (settlement/nations/alliance), small group (companies), and solo/weekend warrior style (factions).

Pretty poor article as it is misleading and overall half assed quick write up of a single blog post by Goblinworks which one has to spend a shit ton of time to real ALL the blog posts to really understand what this game is going to be about.

Sorry Furban. Let me clear up some misconceptions for you. 

Do you think anyone was going to give them the capital to make this game if they could not get the second kickstarter funded? Nope.

The first kickstarter was for the tech demo. Not the second.

No where in my column do I say there is going to be full corpse looting. Someone else did in their comments. That someone was you.

I mentioned threading but didn't go into full detail. I was talking about PvP not the entire last 10 months worth of development. I can talk about that in a future column. It would have ran this one way too long.

Go back and reread Goblinworks blogs. They called the company pvp the weekend warrior pvp not the factional pvp. Are you the one trying to intentionally mislead people?

[mod edit]

 

 

Yeah this sure sounds like the kickstarter funded it, or without it it would have never launched.  Kickstarters just sped things up.

Is the whole budget coming from this Kickstarter?

No. Most of the budget is being provided by our initial investors, but the money we're raising on Kickstarter is the difference between a 4 year development plan and a much faster, much larger plan.

Barring unforeseeable future complications we do not expect to have to raise additional funds or do additional Kickstarter projects after the successful completion of this project.

 

Regardless the article does not clarify certain things that should be clarified and makes broad generalization that make it misleading like the basis of PvP as Ryan's statement on human interaction is not all about the PvP, that is only a small portion of what he means by human interaction.  There is the misrepresentation of threaded gear, the impression you bestow is that there will never be any loss if one threads everything which will not be the case.  Many 'journalists' make clarifications or disclaimers if you may so people don't get the wrong impression when they talk about feature of the game if the face value is not all what is there.  PFO needs a very long multi session of articles to cover just an overview of the basics.

  furbans

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 960

10/17/13 4:01:19 PM#22
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by furbans

 The game, on paper, is a whole lot more complicated than "just PvP."

But in the end, what is the ultimate resolution to a conflict of interest between two players?  If two players desire one resource, how is it ultimately decided who gets it?  In the end, there must be one and only one answer to this question and it is what defines whether a game is PvP or not.

I wish this project well, but I am not the target audience because I seek a world with a different answer to that question than might is right.

 

Your under the assumption that it's all about competition and ganking.  PFO seeks a multifacet in human interaction than just PvP, it is actually who of people to actually work together.  There are a wide array of reasons why people will want to work together in PFO.  Saying PFO is PvP centric is a half truth since it only tells a portion of the truth.

I'm not a PvPer at all but the elements or goals GW are setting out to accomplish have my attention because it is trying to bring back the Massively in MMO and not another solo game.

  Ramanadjinn

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/08/11
Posts: 1316

10/17/13 5:05:22 PM#23
Originally posted by furbans
Originally posted by Ramanadjinn

Sounding like it may be a fun game.

Actually having open pvp and full loot with some gear turnover is a great step in the right direction for my tastes.  

Without knowing what is involved in threading items or more details on that though it is hard to say how it will all turn out.   My worries now are that it may end up as some sort of thing where anyone who is worth killing is just going to have bound gear on them and only newbies who need the gear the most are going to be the ones dropping gear.  

But it is far too early to say that would be the case.  So far the Pathfinder guys sound intelligent, maybe they'll make the right moves with the binding.  There are ways to do it right.

 

Something the author completely misses and misconstrudes in their article.  Their is no full corpse loot, there is a chance of the items that is not threaded.  Best comparison would be EVE I suppose but is not entirely accurate.

As for you concern, one cannot thread all their gear.  I forget the exact specifics but each item has a point system of sorts (like it costs more to thread a weapon than the boots) but it will be impossible to thread all your gear.  It doesn't make sense to do be allowed to thread all your gear for two reasons, 1. PvP looting rewards (give at least somehting to the PvPers) and 2. it would hurt the crafting and the economy which they are striving for something similar to EVE which is the model for PFO.

 

Thank you for your insight and information.  It does sound like as far as this goes they have some good and inventive ideas.

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

10/17/13 5:25:54 PM#24
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by furbans

 The game, on paper, is a whole lot more complicated than "just PvP."

But in the end, what is the ultimate resolution to a conflict of interest between two players?  If two players desire one resource, how is it ultimately decided who gets it?  In the end, there must be one and only one answer to this question and it is what defines whether a game is PvP or not.

I wish this project well, but I am not the target audience because I seek a world with a different answer to that question than might is right.

 

I think the aim is to be intentionally complex. There's a political system as well for eg. And alliances (the quill and ravens) are going to be just as important as pvp (swords and spears). I think if you look at the roles that could be generated: Miner, woodsman, hauler, crafter, spy, diplomat, politician, builder etc then these are all highly relevant as much as soldier, guard, mercenary, bandit, bounty-hunter etc? That's the vision ideally I'd say behind the assumption that human civilization is built based on war to claim new land to solve economic problems. Equally however is ingenuity and invention... and that's I hope as relevant gameplay via the former as well as the latter.

  superconducting

Advanced Member

Joined: 4/21/13
Posts: 736

10/17/13 5:44:46 PM#25

Really like what I heard about PvP and the fact that there's multiple ways to participate in it!

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 484

10/17/13 9:23:42 PM#26

I think player looting is fine in a PvP game.  However I don't think it is going to attract many people whose main activity is PvE.  People who are just there for PvE don't want to lose their hard earned gear to somebody participating in an activity they don't want anything to do with in the first place.  As long as Pathfinder is happy with limiting itself to PvP niche they will do fine, however if they try and sell themselves as a PvE game I think they will end up with a lot of dissatisfied players, and that can hurt the game and the community for everyone involved.

 

  aRtFuLThinG

Hard Core Member

Joined: 4/30/09
Posts: 1116

10/17/13 10:00:33 PM#27
Originally posted by jbombard

I think player looting is fine in a PvP game.  However I don't think it is going to attract many people whose main activity is PvE.  People who are just there for PvE don't want to lose their hard earned gear to somebody participating in an activity they don't want anything to do with in the first place.  As long as Pathfinder is happy with limiting itself to PvP niche they will do fine, however if they try and sell themselves as a PvE game I think they will end up with a lot of dissatisfied players, and that can hurt the game and the community for everyone involved.

 

I think if they:

A. Have a really good, dynamic resource crafting system

B. Items have perm decay

Then the issue of pvp looting will not be a big deal. The problem in a lot of mmos is that gears became too powerful and exclusive. If gears were anything like that way it was in early SWG days (crafted, quality determined by the skill of the craftsman, and perm decaying) then PvE will have plenty to do without having to PvP.

Making and selling things can be fun if it was designed properly.

  Lissyl

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/12/12
Posts: 265

Why yes, I DO like healing and the Trinity!

10/18/13 1:32:04 AM#28
I just hope this will keep the sandbox/full-pvp people from showing up to every PVE game that launches and demanding more PVP in those games.  It in no way whatsoever interests me, but I'm perfectly okay with that.  I hope it can show other companies that a future in more catered niche MMO's is just fine, and consequently I wish them the best of luck.
  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/18/13 1:54:41 AM#29
Originally posted by furbans

Your under the assumption that it's all about competition and ganking.

It is my experience that any game where PKing is possible eventually degenerates into a PKing-dominated game.  That's not, in itself, a bad thing - not every game out there should be aimed at me and my sensistivities.  The frustrating part for the armchair developer in me is watching generation after generation repeating the same social experiment, seeming to expect different results.

  loulaki

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/20/11
Posts: 820

10/18/13 6:17:00 AM#30
2-3 years of excellent texts, nut no footage at all ...

  jdlamson75

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 12/27/08
Posts: 926

There's some lovely filth down here.

10/18/13 6:25:43 AM#31
Sounds pretty good.  Of course, so did that fart I let out earlier, and it ended up stinking like a sulfur factory.  I'm hoping PFO doesn't end up smelling like a sulfur factory.
  tom_gore

Apprentice Member

Joined: 2/27/09
Posts: 1805

10/18/13 6:40:22 AM#32
Let's hope there's room for much more than just PvP. We don't need another MMO deathmatch like Darkfall.
  Fusion

Old School

Joined: 5/21/03
Posts: 1385

10/18/13 7:04:59 AM#33
Originally posted by tom_gore
Let's hope there's room for much more than just PvP. We don't need another MMO deathmatch like Darkfall.

I guess you never played Darkfall 1.0 or 2.0 past the first few days of ganks you received and gave up :)

Currently playing: -

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  Azerno

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/23/05
Posts: 23

10/19/13 4:19:22 AM#34
Good stuff. Been following PFO for a while. I hope goblin works sticks to their guns on the topics of PVP and "full loot" and does not cave to the very large care bear following the game has on its forums / kickstarter backers.
  logan400k

Novice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 68

10/19/13 11:14:52 AM#35

I think the single biggest problem with a system like this is that there is no incentive for other players to track criminals down and "punish them". Sure you kill me, take my stuff. You and your buddies gank newbies or whatever. If the game put a real bounty on you OR allowed a system where if the law caught you, your character ended up in jail with NO STUFF. That might be interesting.

Second problem would be getting players to buy into the justice system. Criminal activity without an overall system of justice does not solve the grief issues. So let's balance the books a bit.

Just My 2 Lunars

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6789

10/19/13 12:41:37 PM#36
Their pvp design will kill this game is nothing else does.  Just not enough players out there that will put up with such a  design.
  shantideva

Novice Member

Joined: 6/15/09
Posts: 193

10/19/13 9:21:59 PM#37
Yeah. Fuck it I'm going all in on this game.

"Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day!"

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 484

10/20/13 10:31:36 PM#38
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Their pvp design will kill this game is nothing else does.  Just not enough players out there that will put up with such a  design.

For me D&D(and thus pathfinder) has always been about cooperative play, and thus it kind of makes me sad to see pathfinder online go in the PvP direction.

 

That said, so long as they are clear to their customers as what kind of game it is, and they are realistic about how many players are going to be willing to play this kind of game, they will do fine.  If they oversell it or they are thinking that this kind of game has a huge market and mass appeal like the big themepark players, then they will most likely fail.  

 

I think there very much is a market for the kind of game they are making, they just need to keep their expectations(and their budget) realistic.

  MumboJumbo

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/18/10
Posts: 3207

Veni, Vidi, Converti

10/21/13 8:27:21 AM#39
Originally posted by jbombard
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Their pvp design will kill this game is nothing else does.  Just not enough players out there that will put up with such a  design.

For me D&D(and thus pathfinder) has always been about cooperative play, and thus it kind of makes me sad to see pathfinder online go in the PvP direction.

 

That said, so long as they are clear to their customers as what kind of game it is, and they are realistic about how many players are going to be willing to play this kind of game, they will do fine.  If they oversell it or they are thinking that this kind of game has a huge market and mass appeal like the big themepark players, then they will most likely fail.  

 

I think there very much is a market for the kind of game they are making, they just need to keep their expectations(and their budget) realistic.

Goblinworks are following exactly what you are saying. They're starting with a much much smaller game for a smaller audience and working from there. The range of roles hopefully provides plenty of non-pvp options but it seems to ensure the game is dynamic and gameplay packed, there will be a fair bit of pvp all over the map and not easy to avoid though not impossible for those players who like the non-pvp roles of eg crafter, builder, gatherer, monster hunter, dungeoneer etc.

  Ozmodan

Elite Member

Joined: 2/27/07
Posts: 6789

10/21/13 2:50:59 PM#40

If you notice even Darkfall finally realized that they had to soften the pvp aspect to retain players.  Personally I spent 6 years in Felucca, so I know how these games work.  Unfortunately full loot open world pvp design just has too many issues to make a successful game with.  I have yet to see a ruleset that insures such.

I know these guys are trying, but you can bet none of them has ever spent much time in such an environment.  The problem is all the players that will abuse the game, whether through cheating or other means.  Small companies just do not have the resources to combat such.

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