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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » What MMOs are missing to stay compelling for years of play

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72 posts found
  Silenttank

Apprentice Member

Joined: 4/03/08
Posts: 17

10/14/13 11:00:22 PM#21

I think one of the things is that there's no 'ultimate goal' anymore. For example some games like Ragnarok the journey to max level was just the start. Once you got there you had a goal to achieve that would separate you from the rest of the people, and only those who did were looked upon as the best of the best. Most are going to assume it's just the typical grind to get the best gear, but it's not. You had to do a long quest that wasn't easy to do, and once you did you finally had the option to make the best gear. That sounds epic alone, but getting the items to make the best equipment was only obtained through fighting against other guilds in guild battles and beating them, and the rewards weren't plenty, they were scarce. Having that gear was something to be envious about, something you wanted more then anything. You could see the finish line but it took time and dedication to get. And even after you get that gear it's not over yet!

Most MMO's don't have a goal for me to achieve anymore. I don't see a reason to get to max and keep playing unless I already have a cool friend group to play with. I don't yearn to obtain most things in recent MMO's. I guess what I'm saying is that most MMO's these days feel more like online multiplayer campaign games rather than a living breathing world.

  jpnz

Elite Member

Joined: 6/29/06
Posts: 3564

10/15/13 12:46:21 AM#22
Originally posted by Silenttank

I think one of the things is that there's no 'ultimate goal' anymore. For example some games like Ragnarok the journey to max level was just the start. Once you got there you had a goal to achieve that would separate you from the rest of the people, and only those who did were looked upon as the best of the best. Most are going to assume it's just the typical grind to get the best gear, but it's not. You had to do a long quest that wasn't easy to do, and once you did you finally had the option to make the best gear. That sounds epic alone, but getting the items to make the best equipment was only obtained through fighting against other guilds in guild battles and beating them, and the rewards weren't plenty, they were scarce. Having that gear was something to be envious about, something you wanted more then anything. You could see the finish line but it took time and dedication to get. And even after you get that gear it's not over yet!

Most MMO's don't have a goal for me to achieve anymore. I don't see a reason to get to max and keep playing unless I already have a cool friend group to play with. I don't yearn to obtain most things in recent MMO's. I guess what I'm saying is that most MMO's these days feel more like online multiplayer campaign games rather than a living breathing world.

1st paragraph describes a typical grind-fest asian MMO.

2nd paragraph then goes into the 'living breathing world'.

So 'grind = living breathing world' for you?

Gdemami -
Informing people about your thoughts and impressions is not a review, it's a blog.

  User Deleted
10/15/13 12:47:08 AM#23

Its pretty simple really. You just have to give players a sense of permanence and they will stay. You make an mmo feel like a world that your character belongs to instead of some throw away game you pick up and play for a few weeks.

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 516

10/15/13 2:11:19 AM#24
Originally posted by jpnz
Originally posted by Silenttank

I think one of the things is that there's no 'ultimate goal' anymore. For example some games like Ragnarok the journey to max level was just the start. Once you got there you had a goal to achieve that would separate you from the rest of the people, and only those who did were looked upon as the best of the best. Most are going to assume it's just the typical grind to get the best gear, but it's not. You had to do a long quest that wasn't easy to do, and once you did you finally had the option to make the best gear. That sounds epic alone, but getting the items to make the best equipment was only obtained through fighting against other guilds in guild battles and beating them, and the rewards weren't plenty, they were scarce. Having that gear was something to be envious about, something you wanted more then anything. You could see the finish line but it took time and dedication to get. And even after you get that gear it's not over yet!

Most MMO's don't have a goal for me to achieve anymore. I don't see a reason to get to max and keep playing unless I already have a cool friend group to play with. I don't yearn to obtain most things in recent MMO's. I guess what I'm saying is that most MMO's these days feel more like online multiplayer campaign games rather than a living breathing world.

1st paragraph describes a typical grind-fest asian MMO.

2nd paragraph then goes into the 'living breathing world'.

So 'grind = living breathing world' for you?

If you take away grind-fest part (which i hate most) then those games are pretty "living breathing world" than most of nowadays game.

Something like KS and PK happen here and there because of no instances ,sometime they cause great war between guilds or a server scale war for grind spot and boss.

Though they was annoying but i ready miss it .

And large scale hundreds man castle siege always have it own charm.

 

The 'ultimate goal' that silenttank said is one things that most game nowadays miss ,

something only one man can archive that drive a lots early generation MMORPG players keep playing to pass through the hateful grind fest.

 

 

  Steelhelm

Novice Member

Joined: 7/17/13
Posts: 41

10/15/13 2:35:04 AM#25

I've meditated on the success of WoW and I've made 2 important observations about it's origin:

1. The cartoonish world. The colors are bright and the world looks like a fairytale. It's not dark, depressing, distressing or oppressive. Even though with all the weapons and monsters the world looks non-violent. After a long hard day at work, who would want to play an oppressive, distressing, dark mooded game.

2. The human skill based responsive client connects you with your inner child. Enough said...

  page975

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/02/13
Posts: 317

10/15/13 4:58:15 AM#26
Originally posted by iridescence

 

A lot of newer MMOs seem to be designed to be short term experiences. I know some people play WoW for years and are happy going after their "most recent bad guy" in instanced content. But I'm not one of those people. EVE, on the other hand, has many people who play for years and is much closer to the ideal game I envision but it has elements of grind that reduce its attractiveness to me and made me stop playing.

 

So, here are some things that I would like in a hypothetical MMO that would remain my "go-to videogame" for 3 or 4 years:

 

-Unlimited character advancement. This is probably the most key thing for me. If there is a point where my character flat-out stops progressing except for gear then that is a point where I start to lose interests in the game. "Level cap" should be an alien concept to this game, whether it be through having no levels at all or having so many that it takes many years to progress through them all.

-Interesting classes and races. Many different stats and abilities (at least 50 available abilities per character at high  level). Deep and enjoyable crafting and a player driven economy. (AKA put the "RPG" back in MMORPG)  

-Teamwork required between large groups of players: (Put back the "massively" in MMORPG). There should be many activities that you need a large guild, group of small guilds working together in order to accomplish. Which brings us to....

-There needs to be some form of actual struggle between players. I'm not talking about FFA noob-ganking open world PVP but I don't think PVP should be instanced and segmented off from the rest of the game either. Encourage large scale wars and alliances between players and give new players a large safe zone to PVE in until they are ready to join in the alliance system.

-A very large open world with variation in geography and lore and things like actual taverns in towns to encourage roleplaying. Also, strong limits on fast travel. Nothing kills immersion faster than being able to teleport at will all over the map. Another idea I like is to have the odd more powerful mob go through an area. It cuts down on the feeling of mindless grinding, if you have to watch out for something, even if it's an NPC. Obviously this would only be needed in areas of the world where PVP wasn't allowed.

 

I think a game like this could get away without having a ton of instanced content at launch or coming out with a lot of instanced content every year which seems to be a big cause of failure to newer MMOs

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm playing Vanilla WoW right now, and its the only game left that still has every single quality that your talking about. Been playing it on and off for a year now, and the last few days I've been taking it serious. I've been watching careful in a major city for a popular guild and chose an at random popular one. Well in just a few short days I've simply asked five or six players if they need help, any help at all, and each one said yes. Now I have a boat load of friends and have become popular in my guild with such a simple gesture. I already have an active friends list with four people I can count on for instances unrelated to my guild.

In playing semi hard in the past few days I went from Lv33 to only Lv36 and enjoying the ride, No sense of urgency at all. And Remember the area Dosolice.....I always hated that bland area, well I just realized that that area alone is larger than an entire Continent in FF14 !....With more stuff to do !....Yes, I'm talking about the most bland area in WoW !

This is a true mmo.  None others left, the few that are went F2P and that makes them hands off to me.

 

I was thinking it was me, now I realize its not me it's them............

  ivanj99

Apprentice Member

Joined: 10/15/13
Posts: 21

10/15/13 5:09:44 AM#27

Community,

some games implement this in a great, great way, for me Asheron's Call.

some games you play for the community even without a great system, for me WoW.

 

 

Ps, the only community aspect of WoW that really draws me in is the fact that many of my relatives play it, and it's fairly simple to teach time constrained newbie, unlike AC/EVE/DAOC/SWG, ect.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2757

10/15/13 5:17:43 AM#28

In a word: Everything.

Or at least everything the original games brought to the table and new games don't or can't.

 

  Caldicot

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/10/07
Posts: 395

Hobbes was right, Rousseau was wrong.

10/15/13 5:53:10 AM#29
So you are basically describing EVE online and I completely agree with you. It's simply the best mmo out there and will be for a very long time.

If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

10/15/13 10:45:40 AM#30
Originally posted by iridescence

 


So, here are some things that I would like in a hypothetical MMO that would remain my "go-to videogame" for 3 or 4 years:

3-4 years? Thanks but no thanks.

 

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10635

I think with my heart and move with my head.-Kongos

10/15/13 12:05:46 PM#31

I think one of the things missing are enough players that want to play the same game for three or four years. Unless the game was somehow geared to provide new game play experiences every six months or so, players are eventually going to move on because their expectation is that they get something new, beyond additional content, every so often.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

10/15/13 12:13:37 PM#32
Originally posted by lizardbones

I think one of the things missing are enough players that want to play the same game for three or four years. Unless the game was somehow geared to provide new game play experiences every six months or so, players are eventually going to move on because their expectation is that they get something new, beyond additional content, every so often.

Even if the game is providing new content, much of the mechanics, and art will stay the same. Even WOW, which blizz spent an arm and a leg to update, gets old eventually.

I am more for playing a game, finish it, move onto to the next one.

  rutaq

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 416

10/15/13 12:26:42 PM#33
Originally posted by Cephus404
Decent communities.  That's what it would take for me.  Otherwise, I just consume the content and move on.  I want nothing to do with the overwhelming majority of people who play these games today.

 

Sadly, I have to agree.  

 

I have always been a die hard MMO player for almost 20 years and still hold out hope that a niche MMO will come along to support the type of grouping, player interdependence and community  that the genre started with.

 

  Mr.Kujo

Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

10/15/13 12:32:06 PM#34
Originally posted by iridescence

 

A lot of newer MMOs seem to be designed to be short term experiences.

 

I understand you are suggesting that older MMO's were designed to be long term experience. Is that so? I never played a single MMO longer than 4 months, be it UO, WoW or any other of the "champions of the forums". I got bored and had to move on every few months and never came back, NOW....

What if I told you, that for majority of players MMO's were always a short term experience, and the 100k of people currently playing UO are not the same 100k people that were playing 5 years ago. Maybe you belong to a small group that got addicted to one or two games, and kept playing it for many years, but that had nothing to do with game's life span, and that group of people is smaller than you think.

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

10/15/13 12:33:14 PM#35
Originally posted by rutaq
Originally posted by Cephus404
Decent communities.  That's what it would take for me.  Otherwise, I just consume the content and move on.  I want nothing to do with the overwhelming majority of people who play these games today.

 

Sadly, I have to agree.  

 

I have always been a die hard MMO player for almost 20 years and still hold out hope that a niche MMO will come along to support the type of grouping, player interdependence and community  that the genre started with.

 

To start with does not mean to end with. Every genre evolves and progress.

Personally i don't want to depend on others for my fun, and i don't care about in-game community.

  rutaq

Hard Core Member

Joined: 8/08/06
Posts: 416

10/15/13 3:18:49 PM#36
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by rutaq
...

I have always been a die hard MMO player for almost 20 years and still hold out hope that a niche MMO will come along to support the type of grouping, player interdependence and community  that the genre started with.

 

To start with does not mean to end with. Every genre evolves and progress.

Personally i don't want to depend on others for my fun, and i don't care about in-game community.

 

      Then it sounds like you are a prefect customer for the newest evolution of "Mass marketed", "streamlined", "casual focused","risk averse","instant gratification"," Everyone wins"  MMOs, we have seen released over the last 5 years.

 

Evolution means change and who knows where things will go, but as tech becomes easier and cheaper I bet you will see the indie market explode to fill the niches in the genre.  Games can be designed for some players but not others, focus on core elements and don't worry about making something that fits everyone's play style.

  

 

  iixviiiix

Elite Member

Joined: 3/04/13
Posts: 516

10/15/13 9:27:38 PM#37
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Originally posted by rutaq
Originally posted by Cephus404
Decent communities.  That's what it would take for me.  Otherwise, I just consume the content and move on.  I want nothing to do with the overwhelming majority of people who play these games today.

 

Sadly, I have to agree.  

 

I have always been a die hard MMO player for almost 20 years and still hold out hope that a niche MMO will come along to support the type of grouping, player interdependence and community  that the genre started with.

 

To start with does not mean to end with. Every genre evolves and progress.

Personally i don't want to depend on others for my fun, and i don't care about in-game community.

I know you have your own point of view and short term gaming jump habit

but what do those words (that you always copy and paste in all topic about long term MMO) have any work in topic about what long term MMO need to life longer ?

If you think good community don't make a MMO worth to play for long term then show your point why it not.

 

Oh wait , don't tell that reason why community don't need for long term MMOs because you don't need it and everyone think the same as you ?

 

I agree with Rutag that good community keep game worth to player longer because most of long life MMOs all have good community player base back up for them.

So what's your point when you tell that community are no need for LONG TERM MMOs (we discuss about long term MMOs in this topic , not short term one)

  AlBQuirky

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 1/24/05
Posts: 3206

Tomorrow's just a future yesterday...

10/16/13 2:08:44 AM#38


Originally posted by dave6660
Does it really matter at this point?  They're not going back to that.  The mmorpg genre makes more money by catering to people with the attention span of a goldfish.

I'm surprised it is that long :)

- Al

Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
- FARGIN_WAR

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

10/16/13 11:18:41 AM#39
Originally posted by iixviiiix

So what's your point when you tell that community are no need for LONG TERM MMOs (we discuss about long term MMOs in this topic , not short term one)

nah .. you miss my point. My point is not that community is no need for long term MMOs. My point is that I do not need long term MMO at all. In fact, i prefer short term games.

And my point of why i don't need a community?

- so i don't have to depend on others for my fun

- dealing with others takes too much time, and adds little to my fun

 

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19819

10/16/13 11:19:59 AM#40
Originally posted by AlBQuirky

 


Originally posted by dave6660
Does it really matter at this point?  They're not going back to that.  The mmorpg genre makes more money by catering to people with the attention span of a goldfish.


I'm surprised it is that long :)

 

Don't sound as if people with longer attention span for nothing but entertainment is superior.

It is just a preference.

 

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