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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » The "Hardcore"...

12 posts found
  Slampig

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 2404

Whatever you do, do NOT speak ill of Asheron's Call 2...

 
OP  10/12/13 7:48:17 AM#1

So I logged onto the page and in the past 5 minutes or so I have seen three different posts crying about "carebears" and full loot and blah blah blah.

 

You all need to stop and just THINK for a minute instead of flooding the forums with post after post of the same monotonous crap.

 

If these "hardcore" full loot games were what people wanted then there would BE "hardcore" full loot games for people to play. 

That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/12/13 8:01:40 AM#2

the only MMO with playerbase rising like clockwork for the past 10 years is a hardcore full-loot pvp game.

 

now to the point of why your assumption that because most games are casual, the hardcore crowd is meaningless...

 

hardcore players associate themselves with 'elite players'. To an extent they are not wrong. They write the addons, make the guides, post the 'how to' videos, figure stuff out, lead the guilds, build the economies and so on.

 

what 'THEY' as well as you fail to realise is that if hardcore = elite then by definition there won't be many of them. Not everyone can be an elite, or it'd simply become the norm. so no, not every game woul be a hardcore game...because not every player is hardcore/elite. It's not possible by simple word definition to ever achieve a 'hardcore majority'.

 

what MMOs with very impressive success have done is they supported a large ... peasant mass of players and a much smaller elite group within them, in tight interaction with the former.

 

Eve high-sec for example. ganking happens but it's safer than low/null/wh space unless you fly in something juicy. there's an immense crowd of crafers,t raders, pve'rs and otherwise non-pvp'ers that are fundamental to sustaining the economy for the pvp'ers. Simply put, the pvp'er will not be in belt for months mining to build his ship.

 

-------------------------------------------------

 

So what's the problem? recently MMOs failed to achieve this population stratification. Leninism happened. everyone equal, everyone after his own, everyone looking alike, playing alike, showing little care for anyone else. no elite class to be industrially supported by the peasant class...and with each peasant having his own farm, what's the point of an economy? everyone lives off his own land. The cries for an increas in hardcore support is not to create a full hardcore-only MMO, it's simply to shift games back into the balance.

 

 

I imagine an MMO would be ideal at 0.5% "world first race" extreme hardcore, maybe 10-15% at "not world first but as hard as we can"...and the rest at the "just for fun" level. the 'many' supply the few, the few transfer wealth down to the many. The fw are too few to self-sustain, the many are too inefficient to overflow the supply for the few. That's optimal.

  Mr.Kujo

Novice Member

Joined: 5/23/12
Posts: 392

“Discussion is impossible with someone who claims not to seek the truth, but already to possess it.”

10/12/13 8:23:27 AM#3

Originally posted by Slampig

If these "hardcore" full loot games were what people wanted then there would BE "hardcore" full loot games for people to play. 

People on this forums just fail to understand this one simple fact that every company in the world answers demand, so if there is no product that answers certain demands, it means that there was not enough demand to begin with. So in other words, there is no wave of successful hardcore games, because that guy, and his friend, and friend of his friend, and a bunch of other people on forums are the only group that wants this type of game. But it seems to be hard to accept by them.

Originally posted by Robokapp

Eve high-sec for example. ganking happens but it's safer than low/null/wh space unless you fly in something juicy. there's an immense crowd of crafers,t raders, pve'rs and otherwise non-pvp'ers that are fundamental to sustaining the economy for the pvp'ers. Simply put, the pvp'er will not be in belt for months mining to build his ship.

So what's the problem? recently MMOs failed to achieve this population stratification. Leninism happened. everyone equal, everyone after his own, everyone looking alike, playing alike, showing little care for anyone else. no elite class to be industrially supported by the peasant class...and with each peasant having his own farm, what's the point of an economy? everyone lives off his own land. The cries for an increas in hardcore support is not to create a full hardcore-only MMO, it's simply to shift games back into the balance.

I imagine an MMO would be ideal at 0.5% "world first race" extreme hardcore, maybe 10-15% at "not world first but as hard as we can"...and the rest at the "just for fun" level. the 'many' supply the few, the few transfer wealth down to the many. The fw are too few to self-sustain, the many are too inefficient to overflow the supply for the few. That's optimal.


Why does every one bring out EvE as example. It is a space game, and the only decent one at it. It basically has monopoly on people that like space exploration and mmo's, it will obviously have good player base.

How do you know that recent MMO's didn't achieve population stratification? How did you measure it? Where do you get your numbers? What type of mechanics changed the ratio in your opinion? I don't buy it. I don't see how anything changed. Maybe the fact, that more content is avaliable for every class, but the separation still exist and is visible. Just form changed. Leveling doesn't matter that much, since cap is for everyone, but to max everything a game has to offer is still left for hardcore players, and they are still dedicated to do so.

  MMOredfalcon

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/18/13
Posts: 135

10/12/13 9:06:29 AM#4
Every MMO that comes out, even one with full loot PvP for the hardcore players...the Hardcores will still complain bout it. Kinda one of those 'facts of life' around here.
  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 829

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

10/12/13 11:33:56 AM#5

It's like saying "If people really wanted money; Then every one would be rich."

The only kind of thread on here that I have come to dislike more then a flat out rant thread is thread ranting about rant threads.

  Helleri

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 5/26/08
Posts: 829

“If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.”- Henry Ford

10/12/13 11:34:39 AM#6
Originally posted by Slampig

If these "hardcore" full loot games were what people wanted then there would BE "hardcore" full loot games for people to play. 

It's like saying "If people really wanted more money; Then every one would be rich."

The only kind of thread on here that I have come to dislike more then a flat out rant thread is thread ranting about rant threads (regardless of how long or brief that contention may be).

  iridescence

Elite Member

Joined: 6/12/12
Posts: 1491

10/13/13 12:02:04 AM#7
Originally posted by Robokapp

 

So what's the problem? recently MMOs failed to achieve this population stratification. Leninism happened. everyone equal, everyone after his own, everyone looking alike, playing alike, showing little care for anyone else. no elite class to be industrially supported by the peasant class...and with each peasant having his own farm, what's the point of an economy? everyone lives off his own land. The cries for an increas in hardcore support is not to create a full hardcore-only MMO, it's simply to shift games back into the balance.

 

 

This is an absolutely terrible analogy. Everyone *should* be equal in an MMO where everyone is paying the same (and in EVE everyone has equal opportunity no matter what you think. That "peasant" in high sec can PVP if that's what he decides he wants to do.). Most MMOs are more like a right wing caricature of a welfare state. No one wants to put effort into anything so most of the time the devs just give it to them. Then people complain because it turns out, having everything handed to you isn't actually very fun.

 

This idea, subscribed to heavily by Blizzard, is the real problem:  

http://www.eldergame.com/2011/06/world-vs-game-emergent-gameplay-and-the-fun-loop/

 

Also see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning_chamber

 

  Holophonist

Elite Member

Joined: 2/15/09
Posts: 2049

10/13/13 12:14:14 AM#8
Originally posted by Mr.Kujo

Originally posted by Slampig

If these "hardcore" full loot games were what people wanted then there would BE "hardcore" full loot games for people to play. 

People on this forums just fail to understand this one simple fact that every company in the world answers demand, so if there is no product that answers certain demands, it means that there was not enough demand to begin with. So in other words, there is no wave of successful hardcore games, because that guy, and his friend, and friend of his friend, and a bunch of other people on forums are the only group that wants this type of game. But it seems to be hard to accept by them.

The MMO genre is very young. It's still in flux. Not only that, it was heavily affected by WoW's success. That skewed the market towards easy, linear themeparks in an attempt to recreate that success.

  Robokapp

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/15/09
Posts: 4813

The only luck I had today was to have you as my opponent.

10/13/13 12:17:55 AM#9
Originally posted by iridescence
Originally posted by Robokapp

 

So what's the problem? recently MMOs failed to achieve this population stratification. Leninism happened. everyone equal, everyone after his own, everyone looking alike, playing alike, showing little care for anyone else. no elite class to be industrially supported by the peasant class...and with each peasant having his own farm, what's the point of an economy? everyone lives off his own land. The cries for an increas in hardcore support is not to create a full hardcore-only MMO, it's simply to shift games back into the balance.

 

 

This is an absolutely terrible analogy. Everyone *should* be equal in an MMO where everyone is paying the same  

I want to expand your statement and say that I agree that everyone should be equal in an MMO where everyone is paying the same AT FIRST LOGIN. Beyond that...you are what you built your character into.

 

I think that's realistic, afterall a level 30 is stronger than a level 20. Hitting max level, and intantly going to guild recruitment forums and saying "alright, I have arrived at levelcap, show me the baddest of bad bosses on its hardest difficulty, I got this" is unrealistic.

  5Luck

Advanced Member

Joined: 1/23/10
Posts: 184

10/13/13 12:34:33 AM#10

One of the only truly P2P games around is a FFA Full Loot Pvp game with an open world..

 

Go figure

  Classicstar

Advanced Member

Joined: 12/02/04
Posts: 2548

10/14/13 7:06:43 PM#11

I still play for most part like this, do you?

http://www.pocketplane.net/volothamp/chap10.htm

MB:MSI Z97XPOWER AC
CPU:Intell Icore7 4790k
GPU:MSI 2x AMD 290X
MEMORY:Corsair PLAT.DDR3 1866MHZ 16GB
PSU:Corsair AX1200i
OS:Windows 8.1 64bit

  VicodinTaco

Hard Core Member

Joined: 2/28/05
Posts: 685

10/14/13 7:14:55 PM#12

Oh come off it.

 

Think back to 2003 when 250,000 people were playing Ultima Online through their shitty AOL connection and tell me nobody wants this type of game play.  

 

Most of these people probably had to have two phone lines.