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Guild Wars 2

Guild Wars 2 

General Discussion  » Why is WvWvW and SPVP such a fail?

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117 posts found
  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1714

10/08/13 7:30:01 PM#41
Originally posted by TalulaRose
Originally posted by Maurgrim
Originally posted by Badaboom

For me it fails because it is an instance, removed from the world.  It's just an e-sport with no consequence.  I like to play open world pvp games with consequence, like Darkfall or Eve.

For me, games like GW2 are short term fun. 

 

How is consequence working for you in EVE when you have 2+ billion ISKs to replace any losses you might take and how is consequence working for you in Darkfall when you have 50+ armour and weapons in your bank that you can use when you get ganked?

 

EVE and Darkfall might sound hardcore but in reality it is not

I bet the players below don't agree with you.

 

EVE-Kill shows the details of the mishap experienced by poor pilot “stewie Zanjoahir” and the destruction of his tiny, ungeared (yet fast) Atron frigate at the hands of attackers “makasoni” and “killorbekilled TBE.” A glance at the included cargo manifest shows a small mountain of rare and precious ship, weapon, and hardpoint blueprints valued in the millions. Total assets lost: 213,083,571,404 ISK.

Let’s crunch some numbers. EVE Online players can purchase 30-day game-time extensions called PLEX with the in-game currency, ISK. At the current market exchange rate of around 570 million ISK for a single PLEX, Zanjoahir’s haul equates to 373 PLEX or roughly 30 years of game time—or, for a cold, hard cash slap in the face, over $6,400. Ouch.

Zanjoahir’s reasons for venturing into the cutthroat chaos of low-security space with what equated to a harmless loot pinata aren’t known, but the attack certainly constituted the largest loss of any EVE Online player to date. I suppose the old “don’t put your eggs in one basket” warning doesn’t translate well to “don’t store your Inferno Heavy Missile schematics in one cargo hold.”

 

 

 

Some time late last night a member of the EVE corporation Habitual Euthanasia (alliance Pandemic Legion) lost his Revenant Supercarrier in a battle with members of Black Legion. For those of you wondering why this might be a big deal, the Revenant Supercarrier is an ultra-rare faction ship.  In fact, according the description on the YouTube video there were only three of these ships in game before the battle.

The loss of the ship is estimated to be somewhere between 280B and 330B ISK, which equates to around $8,000+ in US dollars. (For those of you who don’t follow EVE, ISK is easily convertible to real money due to CCP’s use of Plex. Therefore, in-game items do have a real-world value. **Note: My phrasing on this seems to have confused several people so while I won’t change it. I will explain: Isk is not intended to be traded back into cash, but you can do the math — “conversions” — to figure out what ISK equals in real money due to its relationship with PLEX. Therefore, in technical terms it is convertible to real money — mathematically.**) According to the kill-report on EVE-Kill.net the total monetary loss between the ship and items contained within tallies out at 309,030,412,238 ISK with 290B of that being the ship alone.

It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer. 

Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money.  All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray.  Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change.  I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat.  Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items.  It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 399

10/08/13 8:19:13 PM#42
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by boxsnd

It's simple. Find the differences between DAoC's RvR (before ToA) and GW2's WvW and you will see why the one was almost perfect and the other one failed miserably.

 

1) DAoC heavily prioritized killing players (PvP) over holding keeps. This made RvR mostly a PvP thing and not a PvE (or PvDoor as some say) thing. Also this gave a home to both casual players (zergers, keep fighters, relic fighters) and hardcore players (8v8, soloers, stealthers). GW2 does the opposite which makes it one dimensional and exclusively targeted towards casual players.

Yup really hard to kill your buddy 1000 times per night ...Let's be cool and call that a fight club

 

2) DAoC had real endless PvP progression (the best one of any MMO to this day). GW2's WvW passives are weak and unimportant.

Same answer as to point #1  ...really great for the cheaters not so good for the average player

 

3) In DAoC you faced the same people every week, in GW2 your opponents change and are nameless.

I knew the 400 Hibs on my server well ....I just didn't know the names of the 5000 Albs  

 

4) In DAoC your enemies were different races, classes etc. In GW2 you fight against enemies that look and behave exactly like you. This made DAoC much more immersive.

ah yes the nerf bat wars ....we should all have just played Mids

 

5) DAoC had a great CC system.  GW2 doesn't

Agree really fun to have one player mezz 60 .....#1 reason most folks hated RVR 

 

6) DAoC had a great stealth system. GW2 doesn't.

Never has never will be a great stealth system ....until I can turn invisible and kick your ass in really life Stealth and Combat sucks

 

7) In DAoC every kill/death was broadcast in the whole region. This helped create a better community. Some players and guilds became famous, infamous. You familiarized with your opponents as well. Everyone knew each other. In GW2 you don't know your allies, you certainly don't know your enemies. There is no real community.

See point one Tommy killed Bobby Tommy killed Bobby Tommy Killed Bobby * 1000

 

8) In DAoC you couldn't transfer to other servers. This made the community even better. You had to reroll. In GW2 you can transfer very often. 

One server warfare  sucks .....even winning every single time gets to be a bore

 

There is more but that was all I could think of in 5 minutes or so.

 

Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?

Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.

 

I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.

 

About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.

 

About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.

 

Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2056

10/08/13 9:09:41 PM#43

Nice post about DAOC above but it forgot one of the most important things. DAOC pretty much everyone ran map hacks which allowed you to pick your fights and allowed a group of 8 to move around without fear of instantly dying to the zerg. It obviously isn't something that should be considered a plus but it really did make the 8 man experience a lot more fun.

GW2 in general tries to curb how much player skill matters to keep the game accessible to the casual fan. This is an issue with every single aspect of the game but probably rears its head more in PvP than PvE.

The big negative to DAOC was if your race was losing in RvR all the time people left the server and eventually the population imbalances killed the game. They tried hard to fix it but never were able to pull it off.

  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 399

10/08/13 9:54:57 PM#44
Originally posted by Ender4

Nice post about DAOC above but it forgot one of the most important things. DAOC pretty much everyone ran map hacks which allowed you to pick your fights and allowed a group of 8 to move around without fear of instantly dying to the zerg. It obviously isn't something that should be considered a plus but it really did make the 8 man experience a lot more fun.

GW2 in general tries to curb how much player skill matters to keep the game accessible to the casual fan. This is an issue with every single aspect of the game but probably rears its head more in PvP than PvE.

The big negative to DAOC was if your race was losing in RvR all the time people left the server and eventually the population imbalances killed the game. They tried hard to fix it but never were able to pull it off.

You didn't need maphacks to avoid the zerg. Zergs had slow reaction speeds and slow movement speeds. A good 8v8 group could run past the zerg before the zerg even saw it.

The population imbalanced weren't a problem either. Everyone wanted to play on low pop realms because it was easier to find enemies.  

DAoC died because Mythic was greedy and released shitty expansions without thinking of the consequences they would have on the game.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Bad.dog

Elite Member

Joined: 5/20/10
Posts: 966

10/08/13 10:18:52 PM#45
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by boxsnd

 

 

Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?

Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.

 

I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.

 

About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.

 

About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.

 

Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.

I think perhaps your glasses are a little rose coloured ....I'm sure you had fun being an alb , but the point was on the server I played on hibs and mids were outnumber 10 to 1 by albs

The damage done by kill trading (fight clubs ) never was balanced out ...

Permastealth and mass CC are a crutch ...it doesn't create a food chain it creates asshats

Actually the thing that killed Daoc for me was shadowbane and later vanilla wow

So as far as server winning I miss the point ....? so after  2.5 to 3 years did they come up with a way to balance out servers so you didn't have to just move and restart because by the time WOW arrived everyone I knew had left

 

 

  boxsnd

Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/04/12
Posts: 399

10/08/13 10:28:42 PM#46
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by boxsnd
Originally posted by Bad.dog
Originally posted by boxsnd

 

 

Your responses show that you didn't play DAoC very long. Probably hit 50 and quit shortly after?

Farming teammates was inefficient compared to RvRing (there was a timer before you could get rps from that same target again), and people who did that were usually banned. Kill broadcasts made it even easier to identify exploiters since they would be reported by many people at the same time.

 

I was an alb on the biggest EU server and I knew most albs and guilds that RvRed.

 

About CC: It made RvR more skill based. Bad players would usually spend a lot of time CC'ed so they were the ones that complained. Some of them learned to deal with it, others quit and are still whining about it to this day.

 

About stealth: Permastealth has multiple benefits to making RvR better overall. It creates a food chain: zerg > group > small group > soloers <> stealthers. Without stealthers there would be no soloers. Without soloers there would be no small groups. It would severely limit the playstyles on the battlefield.

 

Unlike GW2 there was no server "winning" in DAoC. Again it seems like you didn't play very long.

I think perhaps your glasses are a little rose coloured ....I'm sure you had fun being an alb , but the point was on the server I played on hibs and mids were outnumber 10 to 1 by albs

The damage done by kill trading (fight clubs ) never was balanced out ...

Permastealth and mass CC are a crutch ...it doesn't create a food chain it creates asshats

Actually the thing that killed Daoc for me was shadowbane and later vanilla wow

So as far as server winning I miss the point ....? so after  2.5 to 3 years did they come up with a way to balance out servers so you didn't have to just move and restart because by the time WOW arrived everyone I knew had left

 

 

My glasses are fine. I played DAoC again in 2010-2011 on uthgard (classic server) and it's still awesome. The only thing it lacks is a healthy population.

I wish I didn't play albion. Too many friendlies, too few enemies. The more underpopulated a realm the better.

I have never heard of a fight club in DAoC. Did you just make that up? People who win traded were either banned or quit by themselves. Extremely few of the high ranking players win traded.

And LOL@ shadowbane (what?) and WoW killing DAoC. DAoCers were PvPers. WoW's PvP was and is shit. No game killed DAoC. It commited suicide.

DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2056

10/08/13 10:49:03 PM#47


My glasses are fine. I played DAoC again in 2010-2011 on uthgard (classic server) and it's still awesome. The only thing it lacks is a healthy population.

I wish I didn't play albion. Too many friendlies, too few enemies. The more underpopulated a realm the better.

I have never heard of a fight club in DAoC. Did you just make that up? People who win traded were either banned or quit by themselves. Extremely few of the high ranking players win traded.

And LOL@ shadowbane (what?) and WoW killing DAoC. DAoCers were PvPers. WoW's PvP was and is shit. No game killed DAoC. It commited suicide.


You are being completely naive. Win trading was rampant, map hacks were rampant. DAOC is one of the most exploited games in the history of MMORPG. Find a way to cheat and it was really common in that game.

  Mardukk

Spotlight Poster

Joined: 2/05/11
Posts: 1386

10/08/13 11:02:40 PM#48
Originally posted by nerovipus32
Because it's pointless and doesn't effect the world around you.

This.  I asked people why they put forth the effort to take an area of the map when that same point will bounce back and forth many times a day.  I was told to think of the PvP like a baseball game it's all about keeping score.  That isn't a good enough reason for me to put forth the effort.  I think you really need to love PvP for PvP's sake to enjoy this GW2  PvP.  Just don't expect consequence or any real risk vs reward as there are neither.

  DavisFlight

Elite Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2512

10/08/13 11:18:10 PM#49

Hm... first problem, too easy to change servers.

RvR maps are too small.

Engine doesn't handle a lot of people very well.

No realm bonuses for taking territory.

No long term realm ranks or anything in RvR.

No enemy names in RvR.

Relics are a joke.

No PvP dungeons.

 

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7191

10/08/13 11:24:46 PM#50
Originally posted by rodingo
 

It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer. 

Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money.  All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray.  Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change.  I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat.  Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items.  It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?

Yeah there is item decay from death, and you lose bound silver when you die aswell.  It also cost silver to res onsite. No real bad death penalty besides self respect though :p

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  bcbully

Elite Member

Joined: 3/03/12
Posts: 7191

10/08/13 11:36:28 PM#51
Originally posted by Halandir
Originally posted by bcbully

It's not like the groundwork for GW2 pvp was/is bad. The combat it's self isn't bad. After a bit though both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of "what am I doing this for?" You are not doing it for gear, skills, or gold. 

 

Why do you claim: "both spvp and wvw hit you with a huge feeling of 'what am I doing this for?' " ?

I never had that thought, with the current incarnation of GW2 sPvP and the more PvE'ish WvW, even though you insist I do!

To some of us, virtual "gear" and "gold" is utterly meaningless. The feeling of having "fun" and an "outing with my guild" however, is quite rewarding to us!

Your "PvP" is not my "PvP" - Please stop speaking on my behalf

 

That feeling was real bad with Spvp. This is coming from a guy who got Justicar, and Of the Alliance post vanilla WoW. Battle after Spvp battle for a number, and cosmetic gear you can't even ware in the real game world. 

 

WvW, killing for the sake of killing. Keeps flip back and forth all again for a number, a score. It got really bad when it dawned on me I was buying arrow carts and stuff hoping to break even from the little bag drops. 

 

They both just left me with the feeling of "what for" Idk, It's just nice to win something when you win. It just makes it better. Like I said if there was a much more robust skill system, and skill based perhaps, there would have been more meaning.

When I eat chocolate chip pie it just doesn't feel like chocolate chip cookies. The texture, the consistency, it's just not the same and this is disappointing.

  mad-hatter

Novice Member

Joined: 3/15/04
Posts: 237

10/08/13 11:36:30 PM#52
WvW is zergier than those dirty Albion bastards were in DAOC.
  Kaleston

Novice Member

Joined: 9/08/11
Posts: 176

10/09/13 3:13:42 AM#53

For me WvW fails only because it lacks more incentives to do it. The only incentive really is to make your world win, but problem is, if you're on server that is not WvW heavy and you don't have HC members that would protect your world from night capping and such, this incentive is lost. You can be the best in the world and have 100% of map when your people are online, but once those people go to bed, you lose everything.

If I don't think about score, it's fun game. Structures are perfectly defensible if people react on your early "under attack" shouts. Zerg vs. zerg fights are actually pretty fun. Even when you're rolled over, you still can play some. 

 

sPvP is just casual fun. It's pretty much on the same level as other activities for me, only you play with "real" weapons and "real" skills.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/09/13 5:49:44 AM#54

It's impossible to have massive scale PvP without zergs.

That doesn't stop you from capturing objectives with your guild, as we do quite often, without following the zerg.

My computer is better than yours.

  rasli

Novice Member

Joined: 9/01/11
Posts: 56

10/09/13 8:36:15 AM#55

I wouldn't say WvW failed as it is still really popular and ANET just said a while back that the number of players playing WvW exceeds the total population that plays GW1 for most of its life. 

The reason I think you heard a lot of people say WvW failed is because the same reason as GW2 in general, it does not promote hardcore play and competitive spirit as much as many hardcore players wanted (e.g. some want higher stats as a form of progression, some want to see his name to be announced, some want to play more 8 vs 8 etc).   However, if you pay attention, there are still lots of hardcore guilds left on WvW, most of them play either because they enjoy the combat (GvG) or because they are in a competitive tier like T1 in NA.

Also I have to call bull on those who say that GW2 is all about zerg and only numbers matters.  All I have to say is either you have to join a good guild or improve your skill.  An organized guild can easily pull of things like 20 vs 40 against disorganized foes, the amount of skill and organization required in running a good team is quite high but also the team can be really effective.  In solo, good roamers routinely pull off things like 1 vs 2 or 1 vs 3.  Just because you cannot do it does not mean that numbers triump everything in WvW.

That being said, I do agree that WvW has a lot of problems.  The biggest in my opinion is that a lot of matches are imbalanced and winning does not have much impact besides bragging rights.  WvW is lots of fun when you are in a competitive tier and your server mates really care about winning the match.  The new league system actually get a lot of T1 guilds excited because it provides more meaningful winning conditions.

  IPolygon

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/20/11
Posts: 701

10/09/13 8:39:48 AM#56

Why is WvWvW and sPvP such a fail?

It is not bad, but there are a couple of things that keep me from going deeper into pvp and other games that do it better.

1. You play some score chart to win instead of some real objective in all pvp formats.

2. Dodging/invinciblity is nothing but a bad compromise for bad combat/skill design. Imagine so much invincibility uptime in a shooter, moba, rts or any other competitive genre and you know how bad it is for that/any game.

3. Combat is way too fast for its own good. Tactics, counterplay, position play etc is largely redundant or non-existant. Everything is so focused on your build and composition that all other macro and micro skills are mostly void.

4. Maps and game types feel lackluster due to the generic design of all pvp. If you steal from BF, also try to steal what conquest and objective-based gameplay make so much fun.

5. Commander is just something you buy with gold, not earn, and there is little functionality that comes with it.

 

Needless to say, as soon as BF4 is released, I am done with WvW and sPvP.

  rodingo

Elite Member

Joined: 1/18/07
Posts: 1714

10/09/13 2:12:10 PM#57
Originally posted by bcbully
Originally posted by rodingo
 

It's too bad a player can't actually cash-out of Eve and walk away $6-8K dollars richer. 

Eve is the only game that I know of that can equate virtual assets to real world money.  All the other games with PVP like WoW, GW2, or AoW just have you dust yourself, respawn and jump back into the fray.  Well, actually you get item decay in WoW and GW2 so you have to pay repairs, but that's still just chump change.  I don't even think in Age of Wushu there is item decay from combat.  Just timed decay akin to renting on some of their items.  It's been a while since I played so maybe that changed?

Yeah there is item decay from death, and you lose bound silver when you die aswell.  It also cost silver to res onsite. No real bad death penalty besides self respect though :p

Ahh ok.  I couldn't remember if they had combat decay or not but I'm glad they do.  As far as the self respect, yeh I remember how that stung to die to someone who got you due to a simple a mistake.  Fun times.

"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  time007

Hard Core Member

Joined: 7/09/09
Posts: 349

"Get your FPS out of my MMORPG" - Timetrapper (me)

10/09/13 2:18:13 PM#58
Originally posted by IPolygon

Why is WvWvW and sPvP such a fail?

It is not bad, but there are a couple of things that keep me from going deeper into pvp and other games that do it better.

1. You play some score chart to win instead of some real objective in all pvp formats.

2. Dodging/invinciblity is nothing but a bad compromise for bad combat/skill design. Imagine so much invincibility uptime in a shooter, moba, rts or any other competitive genre and you know how bad it is for that/any game.

3. Combat is way too fast for its own good. Tactics, counterplay, position play etc is largely redundant or non-existant. Everything is so focused on your build and composition that all other macro and micro skills are mostly void.

4. Maps and game types feel lackluster due to the generic design of all pvp. If you steal from BF, also try to steal what conquest and objective-based gameplay make so much fun.

5. Commander is just something you buy with gold, not earn, and there is little functionality that comes with it.

 

Needless to say, as soon as BF4 is released, I am done with WvW and sPvP.

For point number 5:  You show up as a little blue arrow on the map, that's what you get for commander!  Totally freakin sweet!

  Shadanwolf

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/13/10
Posts: 1869

10/09/13 2:23:35 PM#59

OP

If you want to see real warfare that's more than a 24/7 scoring match ...... try Dark Age of Camelot.....the best realm vs realm game ever made The game is a shadow of its former glory but in two weeks you will see the difference between GW2's 15 minute pvp match extended to a week and called WvW. DAOC is 12 years old and still unmatched.

The difference is night and day and why WvW in GW2 is such a failure.

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/10/13 10:13:26 AM#60

I played DAoC long enough, and I enjoy GW2's WvW way more. Way better balanced and designed. The only reason why DAoC worked back then is because it was the only choice in that category of MMORPGs. By today's standards, that game is quite bad, something only for a few hardcore nostalgia struck (ex)players.

My computer is better than yours.

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