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News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Do Subscriptions Make a Difference in Community?

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120 posts found
  Gaeluian

Apprentice Member

Joined: 12/23/09
Posts: 76

To be or not to be, I don't really care!

10/01/13 1:01:24 PM#81
Free to Play attracts the wrong kind of players.
  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

10/01/13 1:08:07 PM#82
Originally posted by rojo6934
Subscriptions control the size of a community, not its quality.

Well, considering that you can never get rid of D-bag players in F2P games in any meaningful way because of free accts, and you largely can in P2P games requiring a box purchase, I am going to disagree.

And even if that is not enough, most P2P games have far superior CS and community enforcement, because there is more "regular" cash flow to pay for those. So the D-bag players in P2P games are dealt with more expeditiously, if not permanently.

 

  rojoArcueid

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/13/09
Posts: 5825

"It is double pleasure to deceive the deceiver". - Niccolo Machiavelli

10/01/13 1:18:44 PM#83
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by rojo6934
Subscriptions control the size of a community, not its quality.

Well, considering that you can never get rid of D-bag players in F2P games in any meaningful way because of free accts, and you largely can in P2P games requiring a box purchase, I am going to disagree.

And even if that is not enough, most P2P games have far superior CS and community enforcement, because there is more "regular" cash flow to pay for those. So the D-bag players in P2P games are dealt with more expeditiously, if not permanently.

 

i totally agree with you that P2P have better CS for the same reason you said. I have to strongly disagree with the rest of the post.

 

By saying  that in P2P games you can get rid of D-bags just because of the box purchase and the subscription price you are automatically generalizing that every P2P player is a good person and that every F2P player is a D-bag and has no money (when they clearly just prefer not to subscribe even if they have the money). You cant be more wrong with your assumption.

D-bags are everywhere (with and without money), and honestly, at least in my experience ive seen more D-bags with money than what ive seen broke.

  Burntvet

Hard Core Member

Joined: 11/16/07
Posts: 2800

10/01/13 1:33:21 PM#84
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by rojo6934
Subscriptions control the size of a community, not its quality.

Well, considering that you can never get rid of D-bag players in F2P games in any meaningful way because of free accts, and you largely can in P2P games requiring a box purchase, I am going to disagree.

And even if that is not enough, most P2P games have far superior CS and community enforcement, because there is more "regular" cash flow to pay for those. So the D-bag players in P2P games are dealt with more expeditiously, if not permanently.

 

i totally agree with you that P2P have better CS for the same reason you said. I have to strongly disagree with the rest of the post.

 

By saying  that in P2P games you can get rid of D-bags just because of the box purchase and the subscription price you are automatically generalizing that every P2P player is a good person and that every F2P player is a D-bag and has no money (when they clearly just prefer not to subscribe even if they have the money). You cant be more wrong with your assumption.

D-bags are everywhere (with and without money), and honestly, at least in my experience ive seen more D-bags with money than what ive seen broke.

If that is what what you read, I suggest reading it again.

I said you can largely get rid of D-bag players in P2P games, because every time they get an acct ban, they have to buy a new client. Rarely have I seen any D-bag player come back from being banned more than once in a P2P game (professional gold farmers excepted). That is an observed/observable fact.

In F2P games, the banned player can be back in 2 minutes with a fresh acct, for free. And that is even on the off chance that they get banned in the first place, because of the crappy CS in F2P games. That is also an observable fact.

And I did not say that every F2P player is a D-bag, because they are broke or otherwise, but since more people play/try F2P games, there are more D-bag players in F2P games, as there are more players in general with the low barrier to entry. And those players that are undesirable (the bots, spammers, gold farmers, script kiddies) can not be gotten rid of with a simple ban, so the D-bag players that are there, tend to stay there. Also due the low barrier to entry.

And yes, there are D-bag players in all MMOs, but in P2P games there are many fewer of them, and they can be more effectively dealt with.

You can have your own opinion, but not your own facts.

 

 

  syntax42

Elite Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1226

10/01/13 2:18:50 PM#85
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by rojo6934
Subscriptions control the size of a community, not its quality.

Well, considering that you can never get rid of D-bag players in F2P games in any meaningful way because of free accts, and you largely can in P2P games requiring a box purchase, I am going to disagree.

And even if that is not enough, most P2P games have far superior CS and community enforcement, because there is more "regular" cash flow to pay for those. So the D-bag players in P2P games are dealt with more expeditiously, if not permanently.

 

i totally agree with you that P2P have better CS for the same reason you said. I have to strongly disagree with the rest of the post.

 

By saying  that in P2P games you can get rid of D-bags just because of the box purchase and the subscription price you are automatically generalizing that every P2P player is a good person and that every F2P player is a D-bag and has no money (when they clearly just prefer not to subscribe even if they have the money). You cant be more wrong with your assumption.

D-bags are everywhere (with and without money), and honestly, at least in my experience ive seen more D-bags with money than what ive seen broke.

Who is generalizing?  I only see generalizations coming from you, rojo.  

 

Not counting the first 30 days of a game, most of the P2P games I have played have far FEWER (not zero) trolls and other disruptive players.  In a F2P game, however, more people don't seem to care if they get banned because they simply make a new account for free.  That $50 monetary investment and $15/month makes a pretty significant difference in the quality of players, if you're looking for a MMO for the long-haul instead of just being a content locust.

  Nephaerius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1480

10/01/13 4:50:46 PM#86
I can't believe anyone could possibly believe the answer to this is anything other than a resounding NO.  You need look no further than WoW, EvE, Darkfall, etc. to find havens of douchebaggery and asshattery that easily rival any F2P title. Look at FFXIV for gil seller problems galore.  Oh yeah, but subs reduce gold selling and botting......  Shocker, ass hats have credit cards and can pay subscriptions too.  Welcome to the world there will be a percentage of douchebags everywhere you go.  Odds are it follows some kind of normal distribution regardless of setting.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Nephaerius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1480

10/01/13 4:52:20 PM#87
Originally posted by syntax42
Originally posted by rojo6934
Originally posted by Burntvet
Originally posted by rojo6934
Subscriptions control the size of a community, not its quality.

Well, considering that you can never get rid of D-bag players in F2P games in any meaningful way because of free accts, and you largely can in P2P games requiring a box purchase, I am going to disagree.

And even if that is not enough, most P2P games have far superior CS and community enforcement, because there is more "regular" cash flow to pay for those. So the D-bag players in P2P games are dealt with more expeditiously, if not permanently.

 

i totally agree with you that P2P have better CS for the same reason you said. I have to strongly disagree with the rest of the post.

 

By saying  that in P2P games you can get rid of D-bags just because of the box purchase and the subscription price you are automatically generalizing that every P2P player is a good person and that every F2P player is a D-bag and has no money (when they clearly just prefer not to subscribe even if they have the money). You cant be more wrong with your assumption.

D-bags are everywhere (with and without money), and honestly, at least in my experience ive seen more D-bags with money than what ive seen broke.

Who is generalizing?  I only see generalizations coming from you, rojo.  

 

Not counting the first 30 days of a game, most of the P2P games I have played have far FEWER (not zero) trolls and other disruptive players.  In a F2P game, however, more people don't seem to care if they get banned because they simply make a new account for free.  That $50 monetary investment and $15/month makes a pretty significant difference in the quality of players, if you're looking for a MMO for the long-haul instead of just being a content locust.

 

 Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.  Oh yeah, and confirmation bias, self fufilling prophecy, etc etc. 

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15968

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

10/01/13 4:57:10 PM#88
Originally posted by Nephaerius
I can't believe anyone could possibly believe the answer to this is anything other than a resounding NO.  You need look no further than WoW, EvE, Darkfall, etc. to find havens of douchebaggery and asshattery that easily rival any F2P title. Look at FFXIV for gil seller problems galore.  Oh yeah, but subs reduce gold selling and botting......  Shocker, ass hats have credit cards and can pay subscriptions too.  Welcome to the world there will be a percentage of douchebags everywhere you go.  Odds are it follows some kind of normal distribution regardless of setting.

I think people look at the E-hardasses a little differently than the general chat spamming ,annoyingly obnoxious types you see come and go in F2P titles. When money is on the line people do tend to care a bit more when it comes to losing access.

Still the main reason F2P titles seem so much worse in some cases, is because they simply have more players coming and going. This is pretty much self-explanatory and obvious.

 

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  Nephaerius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1480

10/01/13 5:04:57 PM#89
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nephaerius
I can't believe anyone could possibly believe the answer to this is anything other than a resounding NO.  You need look no further than WoW, EvE, Darkfall, etc. to find havens of douchebaggery and asshattery that easily rival any F2P title. Look at FFXIV for gil seller problems galore.  Oh yeah, but subs reduce gold selling and botting......  Shocker, ass hats have credit cards and can pay subscriptions too.  Welcome to the world there will be a percentage of douchebags everywhere you go.  Odds are it follows some kind of normal distribution regardless of setting.

I think people look at the E-hardasses a little differently than the general chat spamming ,annoyingly obnoxious types you see come and go in F2P titles. When money is on the line people do tend to care a bit more when it comes to losing access.

Still the main reason F2P titles seem so much worse in some cases, is because they simply have more players coming and going. This is pretty much self-explanatory and obvious.

 

 

 Prove that F2P titles have it worse.  No one has yet to do so.  In my experience they're really not.  Sub/F2P/B2P it's all the same.  The more people that play the more jerks you have but the % remains the same.  This thread has a bunch of people that are fans of the subscription model claiming that's the case (F2P being worse) and that's it.  There's no evidence to support that claim at all that's not anecdotal and anecdotal evidence is just that - anecdotal. 

It's worth mentioning that the counterpoint has no evidence either.  Facts are the communities are probably damn similar.  I could make the argument that sub communities might actually be worse because since they have more vested fans (based on your argument of money expenditure) they tend to be more hostile towards those with anything negative to say about their game.

It's really easy to just make things up without any facts or legitimate evidence to back them up.

 
 OT: there's a great research study to be done here.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  slickbizzle

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/28/11
Posts: 465

10/01/13 5:14:58 PM#90

I think the F2P games I've tried have far better communities than Sub games.  Maybe I've been lucky. 

 

 

  Quesa

Novice Member

Joined: 6/16/04
Posts: 1265

10/01/13 5:18:37 PM#91
Originally posted by Nephaerius
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nephaerius
I can't believe anyone could possibly believe the answer to this is anything other than a resounding NO.  You need look no further than WoW, EvE, Darkfall, etc. to find havens of douchebaggery and asshattery that easily rival any F2P title. Look at FFXIV for gil seller problems galore.  Oh yeah, but subs reduce gold selling and botting......  Shocker, ass hats have credit cards and can pay subscriptions too.  Welcome to the world there will be a percentage of douchebags everywhere you go.  Odds are it follows some kind of normal distribution regardless of setting.

I think people look at the E-hardasses a little differently than the general chat spamming ,annoyingly obnoxious types you see come and go in F2P titles. When money is on the line people do tend to care a bit more when it comes to losing access.

Still the main reason F2P titles seem so much worse in some cases, is because they simply have more players coming and going. This is pretty much self-explanatory and obvious.

 

 

 Prove that F2P titles have it worse.  No one has yet to do so.  In my experience they're really not.  Sub/F2P/B2P it's all the same.  The more people that play the more jerks you have but the % remains the same.  This thread has a bunch of people that are fans of the subscription model claiming that's the case (F2P being worse) and that's it.  There's no evidence to support that claim at all that's not anecdotal and anecdotal evidence is just that - anecdotal. 

It's worth mentioning that the counterpoint has no evidence either.  Facts are the communities are probably damn similar.  I could probably make the argument that sub communities might actually be worse because since they have more vested fans (based on your argument of money expenditure) they tend to be more hostile towards those with anything negative to say about their game.

It's really easy to just make things up without any facts or legitimate evidence to back them up.

*OT: there's the research question for a decent study here in the article.  I'm surprised no one has pursued this avenue of research.

It's all opinion, of course.  Many find Sub2P games have a better community because they generally require more cooperation.  Many F2P games that I've played and see on the market are more "hit it and quit it" games aimed directly at getting as much out of you as possible until you move on to the next F2P title.

I find no direct link in the quality and strength of a community between Sub2P and F2P.  It's quite possible that this is due to the Sub2P games do usually have more group oriented content whereas the F2P titles seem to have more solo content.  It could also be that the people who enjoy Sub2P games more than F2P are biased but I believe that bias is solidly anchored in the type of game/content they enjoy.

I believe it all has a logical tone to it when you suggest Sub2P generally have better communities than F2P simply for the fact that only a rare few have attempted to state F2P has the better of the two yet a good portion of people in this very thread stating Sub2P does so it's a little more than anecdotal.

 

It's really easy to just make things up without any facts or legitimate evidence to back them up.

On this same note, it's clear that this is an opinion thread and trying to treat it as some type of official research paper is asinine.  Additionally, it's really easy to try to elevate such a thread to the standards you appear to be trying to do rather than just give your own opinion and leave it at that.  It's all cool to disagree but just because there isn't more evidence presented in an opinion thread doesn't make it any less valid.

  Nephaerius

Novice Member

Joined: 9/18/09
Posts: 1480

10/01/13 5:25:40 PM#92
Originally posted by Quesa
Originally posted by Nephaerius
Originally posted by Distopia
Originally posted by Nephaerius
I can't believe anyone could possibly believe the answer to this is anything other than a resounding NO.  You need look no further than WoW, EvE, Darkfall, etc. to find havens of douchebaggery and asshattery that easily rival any F2P title. Look at FFXIV for gil seller problems galore.  Oh yeah, but subs reduce gold selling and botting......  Shocker, ass hats have credit cards and can pay subscriptions too.  Welcome to the world there will be a percentage of douchebags everywhere you go.  Odds are it follows some kind of normal distribution regardless of setting.

I think people look at the E-hardasses a little differently than the general chat spamming ,annoyingly obnoxious types you see come and go in F2P titles. When money is on the line people do tend to care a bit more when it comes to losing access.

Still the main reason F2P titles seem so much worse in some cases, is because they simply have more players coming and going. This is pretty much self-explanatory and obvious.

 

 

 Prove that F2P titles have it worse.  No one has yet to do so.  In my experience they're really not.  Sub/F2P/B2P it's all the same.  The more people that play the more jerks you have but the % remains the same.  This thread has a bunch of people that are fans of the subscription model claiming that's the case (F2P being worse) and that's it.  There's no evidence to support that claim at all that's not anecdotal and anecdotal evidence is just that - anecdotal. 

It's worth mentioning that the counterpoint has no evidence either.  Facts are the communities are probably damn similar.  I could probably make the argument that sub communities might actually be worse because since they have more vested fans (based on your argument of money expenditure) they tend to be more hostile towards those with anything negative to say about their game.

It's really easy to just make things up without any facts or legitimate evidence to back them up.

*OT: there's the research question for a decent study here in the article.  I'm surprised no one has pursued this avenue of research.

It's all opinion, of course.  Many find Sub2P games have a better community because they generally require more cooperation.  Many F2P games that I've played and see on the market are more "hit it and quit it" games aimed directly at getting as much out of you as possible until you move on to the next F2P title.

I find no direct link in the quality and strength of a community between Sub2P and F2P.  It's quite possible that this is due to the Sub2P games do usually have more group oriented content whereas the F2P titles seem to have more solo content.  It could also be that the people who enjoy Sub2P games more than F2P are biased but I believe that bias is solidly anchored in the type of game/content they enjoy.

I believe it all has a logical tone to it when you suggest Sub2P generally have better communities than F2P simply for the fact that only a rare few have attempted to state F2P has the better of the two yet a good portion of people in this very thread stating Sub2P does so it's a little more than anecdotal.

 Hopefully I don't come across as too argumentative because I actually agree with what you are saying.  You could be totally right about any of those hypotheses but someone should investigate and look into it because it truly is an interesting question.  I too hear the "tones of logic" in the sub = better community argument.  However, time and time again science has found that what might seem like obvious, logical, and/or common sense simply was not true. 

Terrible example but easiest one to think of off the top of my head due to being at work: "Sexual abuse is worse for a child than any other kind of abuse."  On the surface this sounds logical because the experience of sexual abuse of a minor strikes anyone as horrific, but it doesn't stand up to scientific scrutiny. (For the sake of clarity, I am not advocating that any kind of abuse is ok, simply that just because one form of abuse seems more horrific, largely for cultural reasons, this doesn't mean that it is actually more damaging and serves as an example of a case where what seems like common sense/logic/etc does not hold to be true).

Edit: Thought of another one!  The world is a more violent place today and or the world gets more violent as time passes.  I hear statements like this all the time, but the fact is the world when examined on a global scale is a less violent place today than ever before.  Another one, being a US Citizen and working in the social welfare system, more minorities receive government assistance than white people.  That's blatantly false but due to portrayals in our culture of minority cultures the argument appears possibly true on the surface.

Twitter: @Nephaerius
Steam: Neph
Xbox 360 GT: Nephaerius

  jbombard

Advanced Member

Joined: 11/06/08
Posts: 490

10/01/13 9:06:14 PM#93

You only need to look to WoW to see that subs don't guarantee a good community.  LotRO has one of the better communities I have every experienced in a game despite the F2P status.

 

I think larger communities by their very nature are going to have more bad apples.  A few bad apples can start an avalanche of bad behavior.  But it isn't just size of community I think certain kinds of gameplay are more likely to attract certain kinds of players.  Games that require patience and thoughtfulness are going to attract more mature players than games with childish themes, instant gratification, or  lazy gameplay.

  stalker989

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/07
Posts: 27

10/01/13 10:33:43 PM#94
Originally posted by Adalwulff

The answer is YES!!!

I have been playing MMOs since 98' and I've been in many guilds and clans, and without a doubt, the community in subscription MMOs is FAR better.

People here will split hairs and say things like, "not all players are like that" ....lol

Experience trumps fiction  :)

Your statement lacks merit. I have played P2P and F2P MMO's since Lineage came out. I have seen players in P2P communities that are worthless jerks and the same in F2P. There are helpful and unhelpful people in both.

Facts trump your "experience".

  azzamasin

Hard Core Member

Joined: 6/06/12
Posts: 2839

We live in a fantasy world, a world of illusion. The great task in life is to find reality.

10/01/13 11:23:52 PM#95
Originally posted by stalker989
Originally posted by Adalwulff

The answer is YES!!!

I have been playing MMOs since 98' and I've been in many guilds and clans, and without a doubt, the community in subscription MMOs is FAR better.

People here will split hairs and say things like, "not all players are like that" ....lol

Experience trumps fiction  :)

Your statement lacks merit. I have played P2P and F2P MMO's since Lineage came out. I have seen players in P2P communities that are worthless jerks and the same in F2P. There are helpful and unhelpful people in both.

Facts trump your "experience".

Agreed!

 

I've been playing MMO's exclusively since Asheron's Call closed Beta in Late 1999 and in 14 years of MMO gameplay the only 2 that didn't have a crappy community is Asheron's Call and Dark Age of Camelot.  Which I think is more of a product of the genre being so new, fresh and exciting then the business model.  In fact I know it is because I've tried just about every major Western MMO release since WoW and let me tell you one thing I learned!  The community in games like WoW, AoC, WAR, Rift or SWTOR were just as bad (or if you're a glad half full kind of guy, just as good) as games like Neverwinter, GW2 or any other Western MMO.

 

Obviously Eastern/Asian P2W grinders are not a topic for discussion and should not be included in the mix because they have zero relevancy to the discussion.

If your idea of a Sandbox is open FFA Full Loot PvP, full crafted world with minimal support for anything combat then your sandbox ideas are bad! Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

  furbans

Advanced Member

Joined: 2/10/13
Posts: 970

10/01/13 11:28:56 PM#96
Originally posted by Adalwulff

The answer is YES!!!

I have been playing MMOs since 98' and I've been in many guilds and clans, and without a doubt, the community in subscription MMOs is FAR better.

People here will split hairs and say things like, "not all players are like that" ....lol

Experience trumps fiction  :)

Like EVE's community who at their game convention has the community harrassing a player to commit suicide?

The answer is NO!!!!!

I've played both F2P and P2P MMOs and the model doesn't do crap for the community.  What makes a difference is the centicity of the game (PvE themepark vs PvP sandbox) and poularity (WoW) are the most deciding factors imo of the type of community you will get.

  Hanthos

Apprentice Member

Joined: 6/17/13
Posts: 228

PROUD P2P Elitist...

10/01/13 11:43:44 PM#97

Of all the games I have played, my experience has been to see better communities in subbed games over F2P. There are always going to be malcontents though no matter what the model is.

 

Your mileage however may vary...

  Eleazaros

Novice Member

Joined: 9/10/08
Posts: 204

10/02/13 9:47:43 AM#98

It's actually a tough call on community but, in general, yes it's better in sub games.

When you pay up-front for a subscription, you tend to find a community that is also interested enough in that game to pay.  Not "just trying everything out".

Trials are handy to get a feel for a game but some of the most horrid zones in games are where trials are at and "roots forward" F2P games tend to hold that trial-zone feeling across the bulk of their game world.

Genre/format also is very important to the game community.  A game like LoTRO is set in a more kindly/friendly world so draws a different type of player than a PvP centric game which will draw a more competitive (often more vicious, rude and petty) type of gamer.

Each to their own style of gaming but if it's more "mature" attitudes, whether it's free or costs, the genre and focus, as well as those you choose to interact with in the game, will determine if it has a good or poor community - or at least the part you interact with.

  Eir_S

Novice Member

Joined: 8/07/11
Posts: 4707

GW2 socialist.

10/02/13 10:04:14 AM#99
I know a lot of people here who like to push the idea that sub communities are superior in order to push their agenda for subs themselves, but the honest truth is that it depends mostly on the game mechanics or plain old dumb luck.  I've played sub games with servers full of A-holes and I've played F2P/B2P games where no one has a bad word to say about each other (usually).  Anyone who says they have a definitive answer on which is better is kidding themselves.
  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2098

10/02/13 3:12:46 PM#100

No it doesn't make a difference. You lose just as many good players as bad by charging and in this market you better pull off an amazing game if you expect anyone to pay a monthly fee.

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