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The Pub at MMORPG.COM  » Would many studios be better off focusing heavily on the PVPer?

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195 posts found
  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2044

10/01/13 10:39:35 PM#141

Real PvP involves admitting you are bad at the game sometimes and the player base isn't willing to do that. The current generation of gamers don't want to compete for anything they don't have to and won't ever accept real PvP where you fight over the PvE. Instances are awful but they are here to stay in PvE as well as PvP.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

10/01/13 10:40:38 PM#142
Originally posted by Theocritus
THeres alot of PVP out there already......The problem is  that PVPers are very fickle and none of them appeal to them..... I dont think you can please them ever to be honest.

There are very few PvP MMOs. The last AAA PVP MMO was WAR. Almost 7 years ago, ish?

They are harder to get right, and AAA companies just want to copy WoW, which is a PVE game, so, we get nothing but indie titles. Darkfall actually has very good PvP, but thats about it.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/01/13 10:55:52 PM#143
Originally posted by Distopia

Eve's cost is well below the average themepark because it doesn't need flashy content on a monthly basis. 

Minecraft's cost was also well below the average themepark.

You are are pitching as PvP-vs-thempark when it could be *anything*-vs-themepark

( as an aside, I would argue that no matter what model you start with, once it becomes it's own subgenre, the competition in the market between various clones will eventually force larger budgets as studios compete for market share and try to find a way to create customer expectations that make it hard for new competitors to break in )

  Distopia

Drifter

Joined: 11/22/05
Posts: 15106

"what a boring life, HATING everything" -Gorilla Biscuits

 
OP  10/02/13 2:23:29 AM#144
Originally posted by maplestone
Originally posted by Distopia

Eve's cost is well below the average themepark because it doesn't need flashy content on a monthly basis. 

Minecraft's cost was also well below the average themepark.

You are are pitching as PvP-vs-thempark when it could be *anything*-vs-themepark

( as an aside, I would argue that no matter what model you start with, once it becomes it's own subgenre, the competition in the market between various clones will eventually force larger budgets as studios compete for market share and try to find a way to create customer expectations that make it hard for new competitors to break in )

We may get to see just how well Minecraft in MMO form pans out with EQN, then again we may not. SOme of what they describe sounds like such a game.

But you're right here, it could apply to other forms of games. I'm just focusing on PVP because it's the second largest demographic in MMORPG gaming (seemingly), it's also popular in general PC and console gaming as well.

I'm not sure what a full blown crafting game would be like outside of ATITD. I'd think you'd need something more to build to, and for, in such a game to have any form of larger demographic appeal, unless you're simply going for no more than ATITD has. In that case I don't think you'll end up with much more.

For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason

  Neo_Viper

Novice Member

Joined: 5/10/13
Posts: 624

If I agreed with you we'd both be wrong.

10/02/13 3:34:20 AM#145
Pretending a PvP MMORPG would be successful because LoL and DOTA are successes is like saying a PvP MMORPG would work because the QUAKE series was a success - it's comparing apples to oranges. You can't compare lobby based games with limited number of participants to a MMORPG.

My computer is better than yours.

  daltanious

Elite Member

Joined: 4/19/08
Posts: 1676

10/02/13 6:17:17 AM#146
Originally posted by Distopia

I think they would. ...

Not at all. Have ever checked how many pve and pure pvp servers any game have? Usually 99 pve servers and 1 pvp. But i believe many want to TRY and play also pvp. But I do not see any scope in neglecting pve because of pvp.

  maplestone

Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/02/13 8:19:35 AM#147
Originally posted by Distopia

We may get to see just how well Minecraft in MMO form pans out with EQN, then again we may not. SOme of what they describe sounds like such a game.

Indeed, although I'm not convinced that the way they are approaching it will actually be cheaper to produce.  The demos seemed to hint at a lot of dynamically-placed, scripted events ... which would still mean a lot of manual content-creation.  But I could be wrong.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10375

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/02/13 9:32:10 AM#148


Originally posted by TiamatRoar

Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87 [Eve is] the second most popular MMO on the net.
 Could someone post the numbers behind this statement to me again?  I believe someone posted numbers earlier but I forgot them.



Does it really matter? Eve is a very popular MMORPG, and even if it isn't the "second most popular", it is popular, and the population of the game is stable at their peak user base, something very few, if any modern games aside from WoW have managed to achieve for any length of time. Even WoW has fallen off that plateau. It's a good game.

To get into popularity you'd have to distinguish between Free and Pay players with SWToR, whether you include the Lineage games, etc. It's a pointless discussion.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  DavisFlight

Apprentice Member

Joined: 9/25/12
Posts: 2388

10/02/13 9:35:45 AM#149
Originally posted by daltanious
Originally posted by Distopia

I think they would. ...

Not at all. Have ever checked how many pve and pure pvp servers any game have? Usually 99 pve servers and 1 pvp. But i believe many want to TRY and play also pvp. But I do not see any scope in neglecting pve because of pvp.

That's because if your PvP is tacked on enough to be able to have a PvP server, its probably not worth playing.

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10375

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/02/13 9:42:54 AM#150


Originally posted by DavisFlight

Originally posted by daltanious

Originally posted by Distopia I think they would. ...
Not at all. Have ever checked how many pve and pure pvp servers any game have? Usually 99 pve servers and 1 pvp. But i believe many want to TRY and play also pvp. But I do not see any scope in neglecting pve because of pvp.
That's because if your PvP is tacked on enough to be able to have a PvP server, its probably not worth playing.



Dark Age of Camelot is a PvP focused game. The PvP rule set servers were closed and the "Normal" rule set is now the primary rule set. PvP is limited to designated areas and allows the player more control on what they want to do. Oh, and the Co-Op rule set is still active too, which means no PvP. In a game based around PvP, the Co-Op rule set proved more popular than the PvP rule set.

Eve is a PvP focused game. Half or more of Eve's players are focused on non-PvP activities, even if those activities contribute to the PvP.

Neither DAoC nor Eve can be considered to have 'tacked on' PvP.

PvP as an individual activity in MMORPGs is less popular than PvE as an individual activity even in PvP based MMORPGs.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

  TiamatRoar

Apprentice Member

Joined: 8/05/10
Posts: 94

10/02/13 9:59:59 AM#151
Originally posted by lizardbones

 


Originally posted by TiamatRoar

Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87 [Eve is] the second most popular MMO on the net.
 Could someone post the numbers behind this statement to me again?  I believe someone posted numbers earlier but I forgot them.


Does it really matter? Eve is a very popular MMORPG, and even if it isn't the "second most popular", it is popular, and the population of the game is stable at their peak user base, something very few, if any modern games aside from WoW have managed to achieve for any length of time. Even WoW has fallen off that plateau. It's a good game.

To get into popularity you'd have to distinguish between Free and Pay players with SWToR, whether you include the Lineage games, etc. It's a pointless discussion.

 

 It mattered enough for that guy to keep bringing it up as if it was the clincher in his argument.  *shrug*

 

I personally think that Even basically contains the entire niche.  That is to say, any NEW PvP MMO that's similar to the likes of Eve won't succeed because most of those players that enjoy that sort of thing (open pvp world with risk) are... well, playing Eve.  The few that aren't for whatever reason, or that would switch from Eve to a different game just because that other game offers something different like theme (medieval, fantasy, etc) while still being a "PvP MMORPG" are so few that any new RPG that tries to be a PvP MMORPG is basically doomed to also be niche from the start.

 

Sure, Eve is doing well. However, I don't think it's either doing well enough or that there's significant outside info to indicate there's enough other players left that another Eve-like game could also do well.  I suppose they could perhaps get a few more PvP players if they like, had a huge budget and a bunch of genius devs, but not enough to make up the costs, which is why most current PvP sandbox (cause you can't have PvP themepark) MMORPG prospects out there right now are being made by indy-developers.

 

Come to think about it, typing that above paragraph made me realize this might be putting the cart before the horse, too.  By nature, a PvP MMORPG MUST be a sandbox MMORPG (themepark by definition involves tons of PvE).  Thus, before we can have a decent PVP sandbox MMORPG, the industry must be able to make a decent sandbox RPG first. As pointed out above, Eve has TONS of non-PvP elements that all contribute to its sandbox.  Thus, one of the assumptions of the original post is flawed. The original post thinks that an MMO that focuses purely on PvP only has to focus purely on PvP.  However, further thought on this matter reveals that an MMO that focuses purely on PvP MUST focus on the sandbox elements first to build a base for it. Therefore, a PVP MMORPG doesn't just focuses purely on PvP.  It focuses on PvP AND on sandbox elements.  If it can't pull off the sandbox elements, there will be nothing to PvP for, and the MMO thus won't survive.  This makes creating a decent "PvP MMORPG" much MUCH harder (and more expensive) than you'd think, because now your MMO needs to have BOTH good PvP AND good sandbox elements to survive.

 

Right now Eve is managing to pull that off (again, there are tons of sandbox elements there besides just PvP), but I don't think there's enough player base left for another MMO to be able to at anything beyond niche, considering how hard it is to make a good sandbox MMO in the first place, let alone a good PvP sandbox one.

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

10/02/13 10:15:31 AM#152
"PvP MMORPG" doesn't have to be sandbox. An MMO can have a focus in PvP even when it is only loosely connected to the rest of the game (PvE). And it would still bring value to its players if they do it well.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19096

10/02/13 10:41:28 AM#153
Originally posted by FlyinDutchman87

a 500k sub base is a major achievement when you only spent 2.6 mil.

Eve don't get to 500k for years, and they certainly spend a lot more than 2.6M.

You should look at LoL. How many players it gets to, and how much money it is making. That beats Eve by a long mile. So does WoT.

 

  Ender4

Advanced Member

Joined: 5/18/08
Posts: 2044

10/02/13 12:27:38 PM#154

DAOC is not a PvP game, it is a RvR game. Nothing about DAOC was ever focused on PvP itself. You need to integrate the PvE and PvP but nobody is willing to do it. We either get PvP as some silly side zone or we get real PvP with complete crap for PvE. I'm not surprised because players are scared of competition. If they want to do something and somebody is allowed to get in their way they throw a fit instead of working with others to overcome it.

  Torik

Elite Member

Joined: 1/02/09
Posts: 2304

10/02/13 12:39:53 PM#155
Originally posted by Quirhid
"PvP MMORPG" doesn't have to be sandbox. An MMO can have a focus in PvP even when it is only loosely connected to the rest of the game (PvE). And it would still bring value to its players if they do it well.

Wouldn't this type of design result in a heavily instanced battleground PvP game?  It would be the only practical way of not having the PvP interfere with the PvE.  Is this what the OP meant by 'focusing heavily on PvP'?

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

10/02/13 12:42:57 PM#156
Originally posted by DavisFlight
Originally posted by DamonVile
 

Eve makes their numbers public.

SWTOR does not.

There's no way in hell it has 500k subs, or it wouldn't be continuously merging servers and laying off staff.

Its a fail game because its collapsing. Eve is growing.

Eve is growing, huh?

http://eve-offline.net/

Well, if we look at the number of concurrent players, it has stayed the same, more or less, for a very long time. And a presentation from the anniversary event this year stated the average age of the player has gone up by one year from last year. Fun fact, right?

So where do you get that it is growing? I see it has pretty much plateaued. And do they even count out all the additional clients one player might have on at a time?

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  Quirhid

Hard Core Member

Joined: 1/28/05
Posts: 5492

I dare you to pin a label on me.

10/02/13 12:44:48 PM#157
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Quirhid
"PvP MMORPG" doesn't have to be sandbox. An MMO can have a focus in PvP even when it is only loosely connected to the rest of the game (PvE). And it would still bring value to its players if they do it well.

Wouldn't this type of design result in a heavily instanced battleground PvP game?  It would be the only practical way of not having the PvP interfere with the PvE.  Is this what the OP meant by 'focusing heavily on PvP'?

Yes, either through separate, dedicated areas or instances, I figure.

I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  nariusseldon

Elite Member

Joined: 12/21/07
Posts: 19096

10/02/13 12:47:10 PM#158
Originally posted by Torik
Originally posted by Quirhid
"PvP MMORPG" doesn't have to be sandbox. An MMO can have a focus in PvP even when it is only loosely connected to the rest of the game (PvE). And it would still bring value to its players if they do it well.

Wouldn't this type of design result in a heavily instanced battleground PvP game?  It would be the only practical way of not having the PvP interfere with the PvE.  Is this what the OP meant by 'focusing heavily on PvP'?

That is pretty much what LoL and WoT do, with great success.

  Consequence

Advanced Member

Joined: 7/29/04
Posts: 358

10/02/13 12:54:38 PM#159
Originally posted by BMBender
Originally posted by OSF8759
Your assertion is falsified by every PvP centric MMO ever made. And in fact, by making your MMO PvP centric, you've limited your title to a small minority of potential players. MMO players in general are carebear (maybe with a bit of PvP thrown in now and then just to mix things up, but most MMO players don't bother).

EVE would disagree with that

Well , again your own example betrays you.

 

while EVE has PVP, as the stats have shown in the past, the VAST majority of the games population resides in safe space.

 

PVP'ers love to claim eve as their own, but the truth is that the game is really 1 of the few examples of a game that can satisfy both ends of the spectrum

  lizardbones

Elite Member

Joined: 6/11/08
Posts: 10375

I've become dependent upon spell check. My apologies for stupid grammatical errors.

10/02/13 1:29:21 PM#160


Originally posted by Consequence
Originally posted by BMBender Originally posted by OSF8759 Your assertion is falsified by every PvP centric MMO ever made. And in fact, by making your MMO PvP centric, you've limited your title to a small minority of potential players. MMO players in general are carebear (maybe with a bit of PvP thrown in now and then just to mix things up, but most MMO players don't bother). EVE would disagree with thatWell , again your own example betrays you. while EVE has PVP, as the stats have shown in the past, the VAST majority of the games population resides in safe space. PVP'ers love to claim eve as their own, but the truth is that the game is really 1 of the few examples of a game that can satisfy both ends of the spectrum


My take on this is that it's possible to have a game that focuses on PvP, as long as you have a world that allows for a lot more than just PvP activities.

For every large, complex problem, there is a simple, clear solution that also happens to be absolutely wrong.

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