Trending Games | Wizard101 | Warhammer 40K: Eternal Crusade | Continent of the Ninth Seal | Magerealm

    Facebook Twitter YouTube
Login:  Password:   Remember?  
Show Quick Gamelist Jump to Random Game
Members:2,995,912 Users Online:0
Games:836  Posts:6,460,354
Recent forum postsRSS
Active threads
Cloud view
List all forums
General Forums
Developers Corner General Discussion
Popular Game Forums
Click a status to find game forum
Game Forums
Click a letter to find game forum
2029 Online 2112: Revolution 2Moons 4Story 8BitMMO 9 Dragons A Mystical Land A Tale in the Desert III A3 ACE Online AD2460 ARGO Online Aberoth Absolute Force Online Absolute Terror Achaea Adellion Aerrevan Aetolia, the Midnight Age Age of Armor Age of Conan Age of Empires Online Age of Mourning Age of Wulin Age of Wushu Aida Arenas Aika Aion Albion Online Alganon All Points Bulletin (APB) Allods Online Altis Gates Amazing World Anarchy Online Ancients of Fasaria Andromeda 5 Angels Online Angry Birds Epic Anime Ninja Anime Pirates Anime Trumps Anmynor Anno Online Applo Arcane Hearts Arcane Legends ArchLord ArcheAge Archeblade Archlord 2 Archlord X Armored Warfare Ascend: Hand of Kul Asda 2 Asda Story Ashen Empires Asheron's Call Asheron's Call 2 Astera Online Astonia III Astro Empires Astro Lords: Oort CLoud Asura Force Atlantica Online Atriarch Aura Kingdom Aurora Blade Auto Assault Avatar Star Battle Dawn Battle Dawn Galaxies Battle for Graxia Battle of 3 Kingdoms Battle of the Immortals Battlecruiser Online Battlestar Galactica Online Battlestar Reloaded Beyond Protocol Bionic Marine Command Online Black Aftermath Black Desert Black Gold Black Prophecy Black Prophecy Tactics: Nexus Conflict Blackguards 2 Blacklight Retribution Blade & Soul Blade Hunter Blade Wars Blazing Throne Bless Blitz 1941 Blood and Jade Bloodborne Bloodlines Champions Boot Hill Heroes Borderlands 2 Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel Bound by Flame Bounty Bay Online Brain Storm Bravada Bravely Default Bravely Second Brawl Busters. Brick-Force Bright Shadow Bullet Run Business Tycoon Online CTRacer Cabal Online Caesary Call of Camelot Call of Gods Call of Thrones Camelot Unchained Canaan Online Cardmon Hero Cartoon Universe CasinoRPG Cast & Conquer Castle Empire Castlot Celtic Heroes Champions Online Champions of Regnum Chaos Online Child of Light Chroma Squad Chrono Tales Citadel of Sorcery CitiesXL Citizen Zero City of Decay City of Heroes City of Steam City of Transformers City of Villains Civilization Online Clan Lord Clash of Clans Cloud Nine Club Penguin Colony of War Command & Conquer: Tiberium Alliances Company of Heroes Online Conquer Online Conquer Online 3 Continent of the Ninth (C9) Core Blaze Core Exiles Corum Online Craft of Gods Crimecraft Crimelife 2 Cronous Crota II Crowfall Crusaders of Solaris Cultures Online Cyber Monster 2 Cyberpunk 2077 Céiron Wars
D&D Online DC Universe DK Online DOTA DOTA 2 DUST 514 DV8: Exile Dalethaan Dance Groove Online Dark Age of Camelot Dark Ages Dark Legends Dark Orbit Dark Relic: Prelude Dark Solstice Dark Souls 2 Dark and Light DarkEden Online DarkSpace Darkblood Online Darkest Dungeon Darkfall Darkfall: Unholy Wars Darkwind: War on Wheels Das Tal Dawn of Fantasy Dawntide DayZ Dead Earth Dead Frontier Dead Island Dead Island 2 Dead Island: Riptide Deco Online Deep Down Deepworld Defiance Deicide Online Dekaron Demons at the Horizon Desert Operations Destiny Diablo 3 Diamonin Digimon Battle Dino Storm Disciple Divergence Divina Divine Souls Divinity: Original Sin Dofus Dominus Online Dragon Age: Inquisition Dragon Ball Online Dragon Born Online Dragon Crusade Dragon Empires Dragon Eternity Dragon Fin Soup Dragon Heart Online Dragon Nest Dragon Oath Dragon Pals Dragon Raja Dragon's Call Dragon's Call II Dragon's Prophet DragonSky DragonSoul Dragona Dragonica Dragons and Titans Drakengard 3 Dream of Mirror Online Dreamland Online Dreamlords: The Reawakening Drift City Duels Dungeon Blitz Dungeon Fighter Online Dungeon Overlord Dungeon Party Dungeon Rampage Dungeon Runners Dungeon of the Endless Dying Light Dynastica Dynasty Warriors Online Dynasty of the Magi EIN (Epicus Incognitus) EVE Online Earth Eternal Earth and Beyond Earthlock: Festival of Magic Earthrise Eclipse War Ecol Tactics Online Eden Eternal Edge of Space Einherjar - The Viking's Blood Elder Scrolls Online Eldevin Elf Online Elite: Dangerous Embers of Caerus Emil Chronicle Online Empire Empire & State Empire Craft Empire Universe 3 EmpireQuest Empires of Galldon End of Nations Endless Ages Endless Blue Moon Online Endless Online Entropia Universe EpicDuel Erebus: Travia Reborn Eredan Eternal Blade Eternal Lands Eternal Saga Ether Fields Ether Saga Online Eudemons Online EuroGangster EverEmber Online EverQuest Next EverQuest Online Adventures Evernight Everquest Everquest II Evony Exarch Exorace F.E.A.R. Online Fable Legends Face of Mankind Fairyland Online Fall of Rome Fallen Earth Fallen Sword Fallout 4 Fallout Online Family Guy Online Fantage Fantasy Earth Zero Fantasy Realm Online Fantasy Tales Online Fantasy Worlds: Rhynn Faunasphere Faxion Online Fearless Fantasy Ferentus Ferion Fiesta Online Final Fantasy Type-0 HD Final Fantasy XI Final Fantasy XIV Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn Firefall Fists of Fu Florensia Flyff Football Manager Live Football Superstars Force of Arms Forge Forsaken Uprising Forsaken World Fortnite Fortuna Forum for Discussion of Everlight Freaky Creatures Free Realms Freesky Online Freeworld Fung Wan Online Furcadia Fury Fusion Fall
GRAV GalaXseeds Galactic Command Online Game of Thrones: Seven Kingdoms Gameglobe Gate To Heavens Gates of Andaron Gatheryn Gauntlet Gekkeiju Online Ghost Online Ghost Recon Online Gladiatus Glitch Global Agenda Global Soccer Gloria Victis Glory of Gods GoGoRacer Goal Line Blitz Gods Rush Gods and Heroes GodsWar Online Golemizer Golf Star GoonZu Online Graal Kingdoms Granado Espada Online Grand Chase Grand Fantasia Grepolis Grimlands Guild Wars Guild Wars 2 Guild Wars Factions Guild Wars Nightfall H1Z1 Habbo Hotel Hailan Rising HaloSphere2 Hand of Fate Haven & Hearth Hawken Heart Forth Alicia Hearthstone: Heroes of Warcraft Helbreath Hellgate Hellgate: London Hello Kitty Online Hero Online Hero Zero Hero's Journey Hero: 108 Online HeroSmash Heroes & Generals Heroes & Legends: Conquerors of Kolhar Heroes in the Sky Heroes of Atlan Heroes of Bestia Heroes of Gaia Heroes of Might and Magic Online Heroes of Thessalonica Heroes of Three Kingdoms Heroes of the Storm Hex Holic Online Hostile Space Hunter Blade Huxley Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition Illutia Illyriad Immortals USA Immune Imperator Imperian Inferno Legend Infestation: Survivor Stories Infinite Crisis Infinity Infinity Iris Online Iron Grip: Marauders Irth Worlds Island Forge Islands of War Istaria: Chronicles of the Gifted Jade Dynasty Jagged Alliance Online Juggernaut Jumpgate Jumpgate Evolution KAL Online Kakele Online Kaos War Karos Online Kartuga Kicks Online Kill Strain King of Kings 3 Kingdom Heroes Kingdom Under Fire II Kingdom of Drakkar Kingory Kings Era Kings and Legends Kings of the Realm KingsRoad Kitsu Saga Kiwarriors Knight Age Knight Online Knights of Dream City Kothuria Kung Foo! Kunlun Online Kyn L.A.W. LEGO Universe La Tale Land of Chaos Online Landmark Lands of Hope: Redemption LastChaos League of Angels League of Legends - Clash of Fates Legend of Edda: Vengeance Legend of Golden Plume Legend of Grimrock 2 Legend of Katha Legend of Mir 2 Legend of Mir 3 Legendary Champions Lego Minifigures Online Lichdom: Battlemage Life is Feudal Light of Nova Lime Odyssey Line of Defense Lineage Lineage Eternal: Twilight Resistance Lineage II Linkrealms Loong Online Lord of the Rings Online Lords Online Lords of the Fallen Lords of the Fallen 2 Lost Saga Lucent Heart Lunia Lusternia: Age of Ascension Luvinia World
MU Online Mabinogi Maestia: Rise of Keledus MagiKnights Magic Barrage Magic World Online Manga Fighter MapleStory Martial Heroes Marvel Heroes Marvel Super Hero Squad Online Marvel: Avengers Alliance Mass Effect 4 MechWarrior Online Megaten Meridian 59 : Evolution Merlin MetalMercs Metaplace Metin 2 MicroVolts Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor Midkemia Online Might & Magic Heroes Online Might & Magic Heroes: Kingdoms Might & Magic X: Legacy MilMo Minecraft Mini Fighter Minions of Mirth Ministry of War Monato Esprit Monkey King Online Monkey Quest Monster & Me Monster Hunter 4: Ultimate Monster Madness Online MonsterMMORPG Moonlight Online: Tales of Eternal Blood Moonrise Mordavia Mortal Online Mourning My Lands Myst Online: URU Live Myth Angels Online Myth War Myth War 2 Mythborne Mytheon Mythic Saga Mythos N.E.O Online NIDA Online Nadirim Naviage: The Power of Capital Navy Field Necropolis Need for Speed World Nemexia Neo's Land NeoSteam Neocron Nether Neverwinter Nexus: The Kingdom Of The Winds NinjaTrick NosTale Nova Genesis Novus Aeterno Oberin Odin Quest Odyssey RPG Ogre Island Omerta 3 Online Boxing Manager Onverse Oort Online Order & Chaos Online Order of Magic Original Blood Origins Return Origins of Malu Orion's Belt Otherland Forums OverSoul Overkings Overwatch Oz Online Oz World Pandora Saga Pantheon: Rise of the Fallen Panzar Parabellum Parallel Kingdom Parfait Station Path of Exile Pathfinder Online Perfect World Perpetuum Online Persona V Phantasy Star Online 2 Phantasy Star Universe Phoenix Dynasty Online Phylon Pi Story Picaroon Pillars of Eternity Pirate Galaxy Pirate Storm Pirate101 PirateKing Online Pirates of the Burning Sea Pirates of the Caribbean Online Pixie Hollow Planeshift Planet Arkadia Planet Calypso PlanetSide 2 Planetside Planets³ Playboy Manager Pocket Legends Pockie Ninja Pockie Pirates Pockie Saints Pokémon X and Y PoxNora Prime World Prime: Battle for Dominus Priston Tale Priston Tale II Prius Online Prodigy Project Blackout Project Gorgon Project Powder Project Titan Forums Project Wiki Project Zomboid Puzzle Pirates Quest for Infamy Quickhit Football
R2 Online RAN Online RF Online ROSE Online Rage of 3 Kingdoms Ragnarok Online Ragnarok Online II RaiderZ Rail Nation Rakion Rappelz RappelzSEA Ravenmarch Realm Fighter Realm of Sierra Realm of the Mad God Realm of the Titans Realms Online Rebel Galaxy Reclamation Red Stone Red War: Edem's Curse Regnum Online Remnant Knights Renaissance Repulse Requiem: Memento Mori Rift RiotZone Rise Rise of Dragonian Era Rise of Empire Rise of the Tycoon Risen 3: Titan Lords Rising of King Risk Your Life Rivality Rockfree Rohan: Blood Feud Role Play Worlds Roll n Rock Roma Victor Romadoria Rosh Online Roto X Rubies of Eventide Ruin Online Rumble Fighter Runes of Magic Runescape Rust Rusty Hearts Ryzom S4 League SAGA SD Gundam Capsule Fighter Online SMITE SUN Sacred 3 Sagramore Salem SaySayGirls Scarlet Blade Scions of Fate Seal Online: Evolution Second Chance Heroes Second Life Secret of the Solstice Seed Serenia Fantasy Seven Seas Saga Seven Souls Online Sevencore Shadow Realms Shadow of Legend Shadowbane Shadowgate Shadowrun Chronicles Shaiya Shards Online Shattered Galaxy Sho Online Shot Online Shroud of the Avatar SideQuest Siege on Stars Sigonyth: Desert Eternity Silkroad Online Skyblade Skyforge SmashMuck Champions Smoo Online Soldier Front Soul Master Soul Order Online Soul of Guardian South Park: The Stick of Truth Space Heroes Universe Sparta: War of Empires Spellcasters Sphere Spiral Knights Spirit Tales Splash Fighters Squad Wars Star Citizen Star Conflict Star Sonata 2 Star Stable Star Supremacy Star Trek Online Star Trek: Infinite Space Star Wars Galaxies Star Wars: Clone Wars Adventures Star Wars: The Old Republic StarQuest Online Starbound Stargate Worlds Starlight Story Starpires State of Decay SteelWar Online Stone Age 2 Stormfall: Age of War Stormthrone Storybricks Stronghold Kingdoms Styx: Master of Shadows Sudden Attack Supremacy 1914 Supreme Destiny Sword Coast Legends Sword Girls Sword of Destiny: Rise of Aions SwordX Swords of Heavens Swordsman
TERA TS Online TUG Tabula Rasa Tactica Online Tales Runner Tales of Fantasy Tales of Pirates Tales of Pirates II Tales of Solaris Talisman Online Tamer Saga Tank Ace Tantra Online Tatsumaki: Land at War Terra Militaris TerraWorld Online Terraria Thang Online The 4th Coming The Agency The Aurora World The Banner Saga The Banner Saga 2 The Black Watchmen The Chronicle The Chronicles of Spellborn The Crew The Division The Epic Might The Hammers End The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing The Incredible Adventures of Van Helsing 2 The Legend of Ares The Lost Titans The Matrix Online The Mighty Quest for Epic Loot The Missing Ink The Mummy Online The Myth of Soma The Pride of Taern The Realm Online The Repopulation The Secret World The Sims Online The Strategems The West The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt Theralon There Therian Saga Thrones of Chaos Tibia Tibia Micro Edition Tiger Knight Titan Siege Titans of Time Toontown Online Top Speed Topia Online Torchlight Torment: Tides of Numenera Total Domination Transformers Universe Transistor Transverse Trapped Dead: Lockdown Traveller AR Travia Online Travian Triad Wars Trials of Ascension Tribal Hero Tribal Wars Tribes Universe Trickster Online Trove Troy Online True Fantasy Live Online Turf Battles Twelve Sky Twelve Sky 2 Twilight War Tynon U.B. Funkeys UFO Online URDEAD Online Ultima Forever: Quest for the Avatar Ultima Online Ultima X: Odyssey Ultimate Naruto Ultimate Soccer Boss Uncharted Waters Online Undercover 2: Merc Wars Underlight Unification Wars Universe Online Utherous Utopia Valkyrie Sky Vampire Lord Online Vanguard: Saga of Heroes Vanquish Space Vector City Racers Vendetta Online Victory - Age of Racing Vindictus Virtonomics Vis Gladius Visions of Zosimos VoidExpanse Voyage Century Online W.E.L.L. Online WAR (Warhammer Online) WAR2 Glory WYD Global Wakfu War Thunder War of 2012 War of Angels War of Legends War of Mercenaries War of Thrones War of the Immortals WarFlow Waren Story Warflare Wargame1942 Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade Warhammer 40K: Dark Millennium Online Warhammer Online: Wrath of Heroes Warkeepers Warrior Epic Wartune Wasteland 2 WebLords Wild West Online WildStar Wind of Luck WindSlayer 2 Wings of Destiny Wish Wizard101 Wizardry Online Wizards and Champions Wonder King Wonderland Online World Golf Tour World of Battles World of Darkness World of Heroes World of Kung Fu World of Pirates World of Speed World of Tanks World of Tanks Generals World of Warcraft World of Warplanes World of Warriors World of Warships World of the Living Dead WorldAlpha Wurm Online Xenoblade Chronicles 3D Xenoblade Chronicles: X Xenocell Xiah Xsyon Xulu YS Online Yitien ZU Online Zentia Zero Online Zero Online: The Andromeda Crisis Zodiac Online Zombies Ate My Pizza eRepublik Discussion Forums

General Discussion

General Discussion 

News & Features Discussion  » [Column] General: Artificial Intelligence?

4 Pages « 1 2 3 4 » Search
62 posts found

Novice Member

Joined: 1/04/13
Posts: 7

10/01/13 3:51:19 PM#21
After this article hit, one of the CoH designers reminded me about the Lord Recluse Strike Force AI that was created; the Arachnos Lieutenants were efficient and brutal, targeting healers and avoiding taking damage. We thought it would be a nice challenge for players to figure out how to beat it. Instead they just never played it because it was felt to be unfair, the enemies didn't act like any other enemies in the game. We eventually relented and put the AI back to more traditional aggro tables and the players were happy again.

Novice Member

Joined: 12/17/10
Posts: 9

10/01/13 4:28:43 PM#22

A good AI is not always about the mob doing the smartest thing - a good AI should be fuzzy.  As a simple example how much thought a mob can apply to a problem can be based on how tactical they are for a given context (maybe they know all about ice but nothing about fire) as well as how stubborn they are - as they say, are you stubborn or stupid.  Based on these simple scalar values, x passes at coming to a conclusion can be made, with each pass being a weighted RNG accumulated over each pass.  The final value is compared to a set of possible decisions, scalar ranges, each range representing some possible action the mob can make.

Long story short (or not so short), sometimes the mob will get out of the fire, and sometimes not.  Thats what makes a fuzzy AI more interesting.  Smarter mobs will obviously get out of the way, but hey, who is to say the taunts of tanks don't piss them off enough to increase that stubbornness factor and in a blind rage stand in the fire.


Novice Member

Joined: 3/23/04
Posts: 98

10/01/13 4:43:40 PM#23

Originally posted by Quesa: 

"Your example of the fire tanks in CoH (a game I miss), the crowd playing those tanks wanted dumb AI's but it's the dev's job to sack up and do what is right for the game."


This, so many times this.      


Loudest common denominator reaction (LCDR).  We didn't do the best fix, because people were upset.  So common in so many MMO, always ends up with a new LCDR for the next group.  Had you asked the gamers as a whole, what they thought about the tactic, I think you may have found that most supported a change, and probably the initial change you did.  Instead, you made a good change, people screamed, so you did something else, just tweaking it so they couldn't do as much at a time, but could still do it.  


What you did was fix an exploit of the system.  (exploit doesn't always mean cheating fyi)  A change to fix something that was being exploited repeatedly, to the advantage of a group of people that played solo.  While those without Fire Tanks considered rerolling, because they couldn't take on groups at a time, with impunity.    


Smarter AI is my preference, because I tire of boring games, because the AI is stupid.  GW2 is not really a good example of 'smart' AI, only a game without any aggro management of the "holy trinity" variety.  While combat was different, it just shifted how you managed aggro. "Oh look, I've pissed off the mob, I'll dodge and stop doing damage until he changes focus."  


Holy Trinity AI mechanics pretty much come down to a choreographed dance.  Move here, dodge this, move here, move there, etc.  Player skill devolves to "can you pay attention for 5 minutes of the same ole garbage" per boss fight.    



Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/07
Posts: 3

10/01/13 5:00:52 PM#24

Matt, the problem was that by doing so, you failed to address the other side of the coin at the same time: Fire Tanks main damage mitigation was to kill things really fast. If you are thinking it was solely because of the AI, you are wrong. The goal of a tank is to maintain aggro of the mobs while the rest of the team recovers. Fire tanks couldn't do that with the burn change, especially with the longer recharge and greatly reduced damage output. They didn't have the mitigation to compensate for your change.  You probably would have done better to replace Burn with something that worked better with the "run away" AI. I can tell you from experience that the immobilization protection really didn't compensate for the intense fear that burn had after the change.


Also, when combined with the control nerfs (long recharge, short durations, mobs with higher resistances to controls), getting close to the previous amount of damage, even for less than a group of 15 critters, was unlikely.


Elite Member

Joined: 5/04/12
Posts: 2836

10/01/13 5:07:05 PM#25

In GW2 during the betas they also made mobs scatter from AoE damage and most players still hated it.

In GW1 mobs (and hero/henchmen AI) still scatter from AoE - for sometime the solution was to use skills that slowed/immobilized the enemy but then it became just enough spike damage to kill all the mobs without allowing them to trigger their scatter while maybe using mobs path finding against them by holding against a wall.

Additionally in GW1, enemy mobs did go after the healers just like the players did go after the mob healers and of course it wasn't stupid from the mobs since the healers could keep them alive.


In the end what developers and players alike need to understand is that Mobs exist to be defeated by the players.

But the need to be "special" by being the only one to be beat something is a pressure players exert over developers.

And that would be ok except then developers tie rewards to that content (both because players pressure devs but also because devs try to entice players to become better at that content to win the rewards), including rewards that will make the rest of the game easier.

PvP via proxy PvE is just a problem without a simple solution.

Currently playing: GW2
Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, King of Tokyo


Advanced Member

Joined: 4/27/05
Posts: 616

Shit Happens!!

10/01/13 5:13:41 PM#26
   I don't want smarter AI against me, I want it with me. For example, a companion such as in SWTOR or even in games like Skyrim. I want my companions to be smarter. If you want an enemy to be harder to kill just give it more HP.

Novice Member

Joined: 12/29/03
Posts: 1049

10/01/13 5:23:44 PM#27
Pretty much the truth.  People who want the holy trinity want  "platform games that always has the character jumping on the enemy" or "enemies who always just run forward ala Contra". If the mindset had been this way in the hayday of the video game revolution, we'd have no true innovation. 
Trinity is one tactic, it's a single tactic. Games that implement it create challenges by creating different scenerios and having the PCs figure out how to implement the one tactic.  
GW2 is the best example of breaking away from the trend.  Mobs behave smartly. The higher level dungeons will target characters most important , not based off of the character yelling out jibes in the middle of combat. (i always imagine that taunts are really your mama jokes).  
Sure, tank and spank can work on a handful of mobs, but not many and strong team tactics are neccessary, especially when you have a more balanced party. 

Advanced Member

Joined: 8/17/08
Posts: 160

I was a smart man once...

10/01/13 6:14:07 PM#28

I could be wrong, but it seems like Mr. lizardbones just touched a quite important subject.
Is it possible to build engaging and fun encounters with dumb AI? AI is another name for NPC brain. Dumb AI means –dumb NPC. Is it possible to build engaging and fun encounters with dumb NPC? Yes, yes and yes! Just make him stronger!

Generally we are looking not for some qualities in NPCs. We are looking for a challenge. NPS with advanced AI is a challenge. But strong dumb NPS is a challenge too. Just for very short period of time. Then those encounters will become very boring. They become repetitive. Because this is what dumb AI is. Dumb AI (by its definition) besides other limitations has very limited number of possible variation of behavior. So, dumb AI also influence game replay ability.

 It is not a secret that progress in game AI development and utilizing was significantly deprioritized by development of PVP, which in some degree satisfied hunger for tactical challenge.

It is actually not about what exactly some NPCs would do in response to players actions, or in anticipation to potential players threat. Scenarios could be developed to your liking. It is about being challenging enough, but not overpowered. Or you will have situation Mr. MMODesigner has described.

Actually modern state of AI capabilities is quite high. Higher than capabilities of average persons. So, what the problem? When you fight another player, you expect him to be not very different from you in mental capacity. Meaning, you expect to win because of your skills.

Different players might have different skills (and not only skills in a game). Simple AI is not operating on skills level. It operates on a simple tactical level (by analyzing of outcome of multiple scenario variation (it is not absolutely accurate, but will do for this discussion)).

Whatever your attempts are to analyze what enough advanced AI will do in some situation, you will fail, because even dumb AI is enormously faster than you are, and capable of producing right (on its level of dumbness) decision in real time. It is very hard to balance that kind of AI with real people capabilities. Besides, real people make mistakes. We love them for those. We can defeat them because of those. AI may be dumb, it may be predictable, but it doesn’t make unintentional mistakes. And it is boring.

General (most common) direction in AI development (not in a game industry, but in all AI science) was to make AI as advance as possible, potentially better than human intelligence. Not to make AI to be precisely equal it. This is what we need to make fight challenging and interesting.

So, on my opinion, any hopes that improvement of AI will improve our game experience in nearest future, just hopes.


Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 45

10/01/13 6:17:01 PM#29

I mainly played defenders, and only rarely ever farmed missions or participated in "cheaty" stuff like power leveling a lowbie or whatever.  As such, the "Burn nerf" never really affected me directly nor did it bother me.  In fact none of the game balance stuff they ever did bothered me one way or the other.  This might be because it was mostly beneficial to the defenders I guess. I will say that the "smarter AI" crowd isn't necessarily the PVPers, at least in CoH.  There were people who had a fire tank just to generate swag then used a different toon for PVP.   These people complained when the nerfs came down because it meant they couldn't as easily corrupt PVE to their personal swag engine anymore.  These were the type of people who would complain "Aw, now you're making me go back and reroll a new guy because my old money/XP machine got dismantled, dangit, now I have to play MORE PVE that I hate just to generate enough swag to support my PVPing that I love.  This sucks. "  My response to those people at the time was to quote Judd Nelson from The Breakfast Club: "BEE OH OH, AITCH OH OH"  Listening to the babies who don't want their "automatic win" button taken away is never the right answer.  They'll complain when you nerf stuff, but that only proves they're invested.  If it all becomes a cakewalk,  they'll quietly stop playing altogether and go find another game.  As for people not wanting a challenge, I would say that not EVERY mission or game experience needs to be totally challenging, but also, in the last few months of CoH, I regularly participated in repeated Triumph Server-wide attempts to get the "The REALLY Hard Way" badge.  We were only successful once, but we had a great time doing it.  Some stuff should be that challenging.

"Well sure, the FrinkiacVII looks impressive - DON'T TOUCH IT - but I predict that within 100 years computers will be TWICE as powerful, ten THOUSAND times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them." -Prof. Frink


Novice Member

Joined: 1/12/06
Posts: 465

10/01/13 8:31:15 PM#30

The issue with standard tanking is that it is pretty unrealistic for enemies that are not dumb. I like the concept for druaga tower that it is about the tank as a blockers. For example, narrow corridor or door tanking partially works that way.

An interesting AI would bring a less scripted boss encounters.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/17/13
Posts: 828

10/01/13 8:38:53 PM#31
I believe it is highly possible to create smarter VI keeping the trinity. You want the enemy to think smart or more logically and to retain a normal mind, so if we are fighting a pig will we like the pig to act like a human? i guess we don't want it that way. if we are fighting a mob of zombies should they have high intelligence instead of  zerg mentality? my take on the matter is if i am fighting against humanoid/intelligent being, make them intelligent. for example : i am fighting an orc champion with trinity group, tank takes aggro; healer heals tank and enrages the orc champion; now the orc champion wants to beat the life out of healer, now here we make the orc champion immune to taunt for 5 sec(or a time depending on situation/balance) and allow him to attack healer, but healer is light armored and die really fast, so add a mechanics that will allow tank to shield healer for 2-3 sec taking 50% of the damage that is done to healer within that time period, this will obviously make  the orc champion realize without killing the tank it is impossible to kill healer. but it is way too easy, so we add another attack to orc champion and that is if certain player is below 25% hp and enrage the champion, orc champion will instantly finish him off regardless of any guarding or defense spell/mechanism in place. this will make encounters more challenging despite having a trinity.

i want an open world, no phasing, no instancing.i want meaningful owpvp.i want player driven economy.i want meaningful crafting.i want awesome exploration, a sense of thrill.i want ow housing with a meaningful effect on my entire gameplay experience, not just some instanced crap.i want all of these free of cost, i don't wanna pay you a cent, game devs can eat grass and continue developing game for me.
Seems like that is the current consensus of western mmo players.


Novice Member

Joined: 12/10/08
Posts: 3109

10/01/13 9:31:17 PM#32
Originally posted by Ozmodan
Good AI takes a lot of coding and lots of memory.  While today's computers are pretty robust, not sure they can yet handle good AI, besides that would take significant resources from the programming staff too.  

This sounds like it would make a good game in itself - give players a little scripting language and a finite amount of memory/clock cycles, then have their AI-driven parties of characters duke it out in an arena.



Hard Core Member

Joined: 10/10/03
Posts: 5697

10/02/13 2:40:12 AM#33

We need smarter PvE opponents, hell most MMOs I play need smarter PvP opponents. :)

The Holy Trinity is the best PvE mechanic devised, but like any mechanic it forces players into a certain style of gameplay. Smarter mobs can exploit the HT to get an advantage, this can cause the HT gameplay real issues. So players want the mobs to be dumb. If there was a tactical response that the players could make to the moves of smart mobs I think they would be OK with it.

In the example given you had to have a Controller to be able to have a tactical response to the smart mobs moving out of the fire. That's a problem as not every team would have a Controller. This could have been solved by having other players "cover" the tank. The other players close of gaps in the flames around the tank simply by having LoS through a gap to the tank, they just move to get that LoS. Or you could have a group mechanic like a finishing move which held mobs already in dot zones.

We don't need the HT going ahead in MMOs, but if that's not used then we need a replacement. The blitzkrieg tactic of a player group with no structure is simply not as satisfying.


Novice Member

Joined: 5/31/05
Posts: 206

10/02/13 2:57:38 AM#34

I am all pro Holy Trinity. But the division actualy is :


1. Crowd control - tank, debuff, curse etc ... whatever fits the enemy

2. Support - heals, buffs ... again whatever works in the given situation

3. Damage


Thus the Holy Trinity still exists, but the roles are filled by different classes agains different enemies. In your case, the crowd control and damage was the same character, so it was advantaged. Making the mobs smarter split the roles in 2 again (tank/cc could not do damage) thus you got a pushback :-)


I am all for good AI. Make the enemies less in number and more varied in group composition and skill/tactics used. I fail to see why mobs don't generaly call for help (invalidates pull tactics most of the time) or change targets (classic tank is out without other CC means) or change tactics. That is not hard to implement but lowers the fun of the more straight forward thinking players.


When I can find one such MMORPG that combines all the above, I'll buy a lifetime sub in an instant (I am not interested in KillX/FetchX quests, I can do with the grind if enemies are interesting and challenging).


Novice Member

Joined: 3/30/07
Posts: 1425

C'est la vie.

10/02/13 5:44:25 AM#35

A rather unimaginative piece to be honest.

Albeit with some grain of truth, if you believe the trinity is synonymous with stupid AI then it's indeed not the artificial kind of intelligence you need.

Just take a few minutes to imagine. You're an MMO designer. You've got classes that fit into the trinity. You're tasked with coming up with interesting, challenging and intelligent enemy tactics whilst keeping the trinity intact. What do you do?

If you really can't come up with anything at all then I'd say that your own lack of creativity, not any flaw of the trinity.

Do note, none of this implies that the trinity is the best combat system. It's simply a combat system among several others. Whether or not you have a trinity system does not determine how interesting, challenging and intelligent your combat is, it all comes down to what the developers do with that system. A good dev can make great trinity systems and great non-trinity systems. A bad dev will produce a boring combat system either way.

We are the bunny.
Resistance is futile.
( o.o) ( o.o) ( o.o)


Novice Member

Joined: 1/23/13
Posts: 45

10/02/13 5:56:02 AM#36

In CoH it wasn't a simple matter of "Dumb AI = fights are winnable, but too easy" versus "Smart AI = fights are nearly impossible, or actually impossible, depending on your team".  There were difficulty sliders you could set that would dictate the level and number of badguys that would spawn.  So the nerfs to Burn and Taunt were mostly just to take away the ability of those tankers to just set the "mob size" control to "max" then aggro an entire map full of Freaks and immolate them all.  When you get to the level of being able to "batch process" an entire map with one particular build, it's a problem.  If anything I think the AI might have been handled best as a difficulty setting.  If nothing else, the little kids and casual players could set it to an easier setting and the powergamers could set it to the max just for the challenge.  I mean, it was certainly true that some people really made a point of maxxing out their build, whereas others didn't have the time or inclination to bother getting every Very Rare thing they might need, or even know what "the best" stuff even was.  I certainly didn't, and by the end I just about had the Influence for it if I wanted to (CoH currency was Influence, not gold).  I'd also like to point out that the Lord Recluse TF may have suffered from a too-smart AI, I wouldn't know because I never played it, because I never got my one villain to a high enough level to do so.  I think people would still have done TFs even if the AIs were smarter than the average bear, but only if it were consistently like that for all such content, and if the rewards were proportionally higher to make up for the added headaches.  As it was, it was hard enough to keep a TF together long enough to finish it for a lot of them  (see "Dr. Quarterfield TF" in the Shadow Shard) so people tended to start more of the shorter ones (the "Quicky" being the Katie Hannon TF, for instance) because the rewards were the same anyway, regardless of the length or difficulty.  They eventually changed that to some extent, but even the difficulty settings you got on the TFs didn't include smarter AI as far as I remember and they didn't give added rewards for anything you could set, I don't think.

GOD I miss that game.

/em holdtorch



"Well sure, the FrinkiacVII looks impressive - DON'T TOUCH IT - but I predict that within 100 years computers will be TWICE as powerful, ten THOUSAND times larger, and so expensive that only the five richest kings of Europe will own them." -Prof. Frink


Apprentice Member

Joined: 5/19/04
Posts: 6

10/02/13 7:30:02 AM#37

 I'm more in the middle.

 I dislike farming and feel your first solution was correct.

But that being said I play games to have fun and I don't think continually having to chase down mobs after I engaged them is much fun either.

 So maybe one or 2 of the group are dumb enough to keep attacking and the rest path as you described in your first solution.


Apprentice Member

Joined: 3/13/13
Posts: 7

10/02/13 8:30:32 AM#38
Each kind of ai has it's place in a game. A smart ai would be good on fights with mobs that don't hit hard so each class can take a couple hits but not necessarily die. If you have a smart ai on a giant dragon fight you are going to die.... Kinda like that intro video to ff xiv arr. The dumber ai's belong on boss fights to some extent because they make it possible, they make it fun then. But there are many determining factors for the right ai.

Apprentice Member

Joined: 1/05/09
Posts: 68

10/02/13 8:37:24 AM#39
Smarter enemies make for more challenging play.  Enemies should be programmed to act appropriately for their environment and for the situation.

Just My 2 Lunars


Bitter Vet™

Joined: 9/13/06
Posts: 20046

Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

10/02/13 8:38:53 AM#40
Originally posted by MMODesigner
After this article hit, one of the CoH designers reminded me about the Lord Recluse Strike Force AI that was created; the Arachnos Lieutenants were efficient and brutal, targeting healers and avoiding taking damage. We thought it would be a nice challenge for players to figure out how to beat it. Instead they just never played it because it was felt to be unfair, the enemies didn't act like any other enemies in the game. We eventually relented and put the AI back to more traditional aggro tables and the players were happy again.

I was wondering, what incentives did you provide the players to tackle and master this more challenging scenario? Did beating them provide some special title, reward, item etc?

Most MMORPG players are strongly motivated by progression, and will generally gravitate to activities that provide the greatest reward for the least effort/risk.

They don't play these games for "fun" or challenging game play (OK some do) but in general you have to provide extraordinary reward for extra challenge/effort/risk.

If this wasn't part of the design, no wonder the players wanted it changed to be traditional, no reason for them to do this otherwise.


Arrogant, Condescending, Dismissive, Elitist, "Meany", you speak as if these are bad things?
Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

4 Pages « 1 2 3 4 » Search